[BOOK SPOILERS] The Death of Ellaria Sand as we knew her

[Mladen]

Is it that big a leap to give part of Ellaria's reasoning to a more opinionated version of Hotah, though? Doran asks him his take on the matter, after all, so why is so farfetched to have Hotah say that war is an endless cycle or something?

It's not like Hizdahr is going to say, "The North remembers, Daenerys, and this mummer's farce is almost done", and Dany goes, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

I mean, there's a thematic link between Hotah and Ellaria, is what I'm saying

But, tell me, would you expect a line about futility of revenge from someone like Hotah? A warrior who most likely will follow his Prince to whatever war he intends him to be? But, no, it wouldn't be too big a leap to do that. But, then, you ask yourself, what is the point of having 4 characters for a job that one can do. They are talking about contracting the story of Dorne and yet I am not seeing it, since we have 4 characters doing the job of one. By the end of the season, do you expect to see Sand Snakes impacting the story somehow? Doing something that will make their existence in TV Universe completely justified? Basically, if Ellaria is vengeful in this story, what is the point of Sand Snakes?

And there we see that it is not solely about contracting the story, because we have too much characters doing too little. Just like if Sansa takes the role the role of Jeyne Poole, whose characterization will suffer there. By the end of the season, we are doomed to see too many "shock value" scenes, and too little cohesive scenes with some substance.

ASOIAF is not lineal. It's like Jenga. Remove one block and everything falls apart. Yet, is possible. Remove all Sand Snakes but two: possible. Killing Grenn and Pyp (while sad) actually works to prove how much the Watch has lost. Not casting Noyle is also understandable. They're failing because they are not only cutting characters: they removing important storylines and characters who directly affect the story. Not having Arianne is definitely going to affect Dorne.

Exactly. Just like not having Aegon will affect Dany and her arrival to Westeros. These stories are connected. They don't exist in separate bubbles where nothing affects them. They are all intertwined and seeing how separated they are in the show, how isolated they seem to be, is just pity. What irks me about Sansa and Theon is if Theon saves Sansa, he gets his redemption, which is OK. But, that is done on the cost of victimizing Sansa again, which then again is the opposite of the road they have set for Sansa last season. So, while unimportant on her own, replacing Jeyne with Sansa actually is going to hurt someone's storyline. Someone, a big POV is going to suffer. And that is how a small character ruins a big story you had to tell.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Basically, if Ellaria is vengeful in this story, what is the point of Sand Snakes?

"Indira, you're going to Dorne this season. This might require for you to take off your clothes".

"I'm sorry but not. It was never part of my contract. Pedro did not even took off his pants in his brothel scenes"

*HBO executives look at each other in honest horror*

...the next day

"CASTING NOTICE: WE REQUIRE THREE GIRLS (ONLY 18 YEARS OLD PLEASE) WITH EXOTIC FEATURES AND ATHLETIC COMPLEXION. THANKS".

[Envie]

Exactly. Just like not having Aegon will affect Dany and her arrival to Westeros. These stories are connected. They don't exist in separate bubbles where nothing affects them. They are all intertwined and seeing how separated they are in the show, how isolated they seem to be, is just pity. What irks me about Sansa and Theon is if Theon saves Sansa, he gets his redemption, which is OK. But, that is done on the cost of victimizing Sansa again, which then again is the opposite of the road they have set for Sansa last season. So, while unimportant on her own, replacing Jeyne with Sansa actually is going to hurt someone's storyline. Someone, a big POV is going to suffer. And that is how a small character ruins a big story you had to tell.

Well said! Not to derail the topic of this thread too much, but do you think Aegon's removal from the story indicates he's not an end-game player or just bad show writing? All these changes to the Dorne story don't seem to indicate anything major for the end-game (yet) but then again I never felt like Dorne or the Martells were major players in that end-game unless Aegon went there ... or Quentyn actually succeeded (neither it seems) - and so there we have it, the reason I asked my question!

[PatrickStormborn]

All of that is completely fair...but why can't they just have someone else replace Ellaria and say that line? They can literally have ANYONE on the show say it and it will still have the same import. She is an incredibly minor character in the grand scheme and changing her character amounts to nothing.

The show can still explore any themes it desires to without her. Heck, it can even take her extreme desire for revenge and use it to tear her down.

It was important that Ellaria said it. She witnessed Oberyn's death, she loved him, and she had his children. But she doesn't want any more bloodshed. She doesn't want the Sandsnakes to die for Oberyn (who died for Elia and Aegon and Rhaenys), and she doesn't want her children to die for the Sandsnakes.

“Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?” Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain’s head. “I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

Of course any character can say that vengeance is bad. But it had a particular resonance coming from her for these reasons.

And based on the casting... Who else is even going to say that vengeance is bad?

[Red Tiger]

Eh, the minute Ellaria looked at Myrcella with hate I lost all hope for Dorne.

Guess there is the Night's Watch and the North, at least that seems interesting.

[aFeastForDragons]

Dorne is going to be a train wreck this season.

Well said! Not to derail the topic of this thread too much, but do you think Aegon's removal from the story indicates he's not an end-game player or just bad show writing? All these changes to the Dorne story don't seem to indicate anything major for the end-game (yet) but then again I never felt like Dorne or the Martells were major players in that end-game unless Aegon went there ... or Quentyn actually succeeded (neither it seems) - and so there we have it, the reason I asked my question!

George's story is getting bigger and bigger every book. The show has to get smaller now they only have two more seasons left. Cutting Aegon and the Greyjoys is because they are racing towards the endgame. Think about season two and how Renly could have been cut. Just have Stannis rally the storm lands and go all guns blazing on King's Landing. Or cut the Ironborn completely and have Ramsey take Winterfell on orders from Roose before the Red Wedding. You can cut huge amounts of story out while still getting to the same plot point.

[Julia Martell]

Eh, the minute Ellaria looked at Myrcella with hate I lost all hope for Dorne.

Guess there is the Night's Watch and the North, at least that seems interesting.

This is what I think: characters are more important than plot. Plot is something that has to be born out of the character motivations. So changing a character like this, and especially so drastically, is much bigger of a deal than changing a few plot points.

Any hope we had that the Dorne plot would be anything like the same story (in terms of narrative, theme, tone..) was dead the moment they decided not to cast Arianne. She’s the protagonist of the plot line, the story is ABOUT HER. It’s not about crowning Myrcella for whatever reason or Doran’s super secret plan. Stories are about characters and the things they do, not just stuff that happens.

Trying to tell the same story without the protagonist is like them trying to tell the Wall story without Jon and just being, like, “It’s alright, we can still hit the same points. Sam can be in love with Ygritte (Gilly doesn’t matter anyway), Grenn can lead the defense of the Wall, and they can elect Pyp Lord Commander. We’ll make him Hoster Tully’s bastard, so it’ll all makes sense and be just the same story."

[Red Tiger]

This is what I think: characters are more important than plot.

I do not know you in real life, but I already have enormous affection for you. It doesn't matter to my how great a plot is, if the characters suck I won't give a shit.

Plot is something that has to be born out of the character motivations. So changing a character like this, and especially so drastically, is much bigger of a deal than changing a few plot points.

Any hope we had that the Dorne plot would be anything like the same story (in terms of narrative, theme, tone..) was dead the moment they decided not to cast Arianne. She’s the protagonist of the plot line, the story is ABOUT HER. It’s not about crowning Myrcella for whatever reason or Doran’s super secret plan. Stories about characters and the things they do, not just stuff that happens.

Trying to tell the same story without the protagonist is like them trying to tell the Wall story without Jon and just being, like, “It’s alright, we can still hit the same points. Sam can be in love with Ygritte (Gilly doesn’t matter anyway), Grenn can lead the defense of the Wall, and they can elect Pyp Lord Commander. We’ll make him Hoster Tully’s bastard, so it’ll all makes sense and be just the same story."

I agree 100%. The reason I will always love Arianne and Oberyn is that they embody what Dorne is all about, respect for women as warriors but more importantlyh as people in power positions (if I had a daughter, I wouldnt want them to just be glorified breeding stock like in other parts of Westeros), love for family regardless of whether they are legitimate or illegitimate, love for others even though Oberyn and Arianne themselves aren't exactly angels (I liked Oberyn, but I truly became an Oberyn fan the minute I heard how he raised his kids).

Now I get this shit, they turned Ellaria into a vengeful psycho (want the Lannisters dead? fine I guess. Myrcella, WTF guys!?), I get the Sand Snakes, GRRM's attempt to cash in on Oberyn's popularity (im sorry George, you can't convince me otherwise) and i'll probably end up getting Dorkstar.

Excuse me while I vomit.

[Mladen]

Well said! Not to derail the topic of this thread too much, but do you think Aegon's removal from the story indicates he's not an end-game player or just bad show writing? All these changes to the Dorne story don't seem to indicate anything major for the end-game (yet) but then again I never felt like Dorne or the Martells were major players in that end-game unless Aegon went there ... or Quentyn actually succeeded (neither it seems) - and so there we have it, the reason I asked my question!

Well, I always believed that ultimately Dany will win, but that doesn't mean erasing him is not bad writing. Aegon is not just another hoop. He might be proven someone who makes Dany faces with some issues like public dislike and bad reputation, and what is happening when you are not really needed or wanted. So, while Aegon is not in the end game - Battle with Others, he is not easily dismissed because he affects all those he fights with - including Dany and Lannister/Tyrell alliance and of course Martells.

George's story is getting bigger and bigger every book. The show has to get smaller now they only have two more seasons left. Cutting Aegon and the Greyjoys is because they are racing towards the endgame. Think about season two and how Renly could have been cut. Just have Stannis rally the storm lands and go all guns blazing on King's Landing. Or cut the Ironborn completely and have Ramsey take Winterfell on orders from Roose before the Red Wedding. You can cut huge amounts of story out while still getting to the same plot point.

Indeed, GRRM's world was getting bigger and bigger and it reached its peak in ADWD. However, if they wanted to cut some storylines, they should have started long time ago. Now, what was the point of Brotherhood or Tullys, if we abandoned them like they never existed? Or the Greyjoys? Or even, now, the Vale lords? They should have thought about the story they are telling from the first moment.

[rayarts]

I do not know you in real life, but I already have enormous affection for you. It doesn't matter to my how great a plot is, if the characters suck I won't give a shit.

I agree 100%. The reason I will always love Arianne and Oberyn is that they embody what Dorne is all about, respect for women as warriors but more importantlyh as people in power positions (if I had a daughter, I wouldnt want them to just be glorified breeding stock like in other parts of Westeros), love for family regardless of whether they are legitimate or illegitimate, love for others even though Oberyn and Arianne themselves aren't exactly angels (I liked Oberyn, but I truly became an Oberyn fan the minute I heard how he raised his kids).

Now I get this shit, they turned Ellaria into a vengeful psycho (want the Lannisters dead? fine I guess. Myrcella, WTF guys!?), I get the Sand Snakes, GRRM's attempt to cash in on Oberyn's popularity (im sorry George, you can't convince me otherwise) and i'll probably end up getting Dorkstar.

Excuse me while I vomit.

Applause!

[Dolorous Gabe]

This is what I think: characters are more important than plot. Plot is something that has to be born out of the character motivations. So changing a character like this, and especially so drastically, is much bigger of a deal than changing a few plot points.

Any hope we had that the Dorne plot would be anything like the same story (in terms of narrative, theme, tone..) was dead the moment they decided not to cast Arianne. She’s the protagonist of the plot line, the story is ABOUT HER. It’s not about crowning Myrcella for whatever reason or Doran’s super secret plan. Stories are about characters and the things they do, not just stuff that happens.

Trying to tell the same story without the protagonist is like them trying to tell the Wall story without Jon and just being, like, “It’s alright, we can still hit the same points. Sam can be in love with Ygritte (Gilly doesn’t matter anyway), Grenn can lead the defense of the Wall, and they can elect Pyp Lord Commander. We’ll make him Hoster Tully’s bastard, so it’ll all makes sense and be just the same story."

A thousand times THIS!

Whenever they change elements of the story, they should be carefully considering how their changes are going to affect the story, and you're absolutely right that it should be driven by characters and motivations. Their warmongering vengeful version of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are not good enough a replacement for Arianne. the Sand Snakes need to be a more interesting bunch of characters than they are in the books because GRRM never meant them to be the main driving force of the Dorne story. Doran will be interesting but it's not enough and having all the female characters act like they do only enhances the impression that D&D have trouble with depicting well rounded women.

[rayarts]

... and having all the female characters act like they do only enhances the impression that D&D have trouble with depicting well rounded women.

Yeeaaah, thats my impression, too... Where is Olenna when one needs her? ^^

[El Guapo]

Indeed, GRRM's world was getting bigger and bigger and it reached its peak in ADWD. However, if they wanted to cut some storylines, they should have started long time ago. Now, what was the point of Brotherhood or Tullys, if we abandoned them like they never existed? Or the Greyjoys? Or even, now, the Vale lords? They should have thought about the story they are telling from the first moment.

The BWB was part of Arya's story now that she has moved on they are no longer needed.

The Tully's were part of Robb and Cat's story. Now that they are dead, they are no longer needed.

The Vale Lords were part of Sansa's story. Now that she has presumably moved on they are no longer needed.

I am not sure why people think that we have to return back to every little minor character we have met in the show. They are there to support the major charcters, period, no more no less.

[El Guapo]

This is what I think: characters are more important than plot. Plot is something that has to be born out of the character motivations. So changing a character like this, and especially so drastically, is much bigger of a deal than changing a few plot points.

Any hope we had that the Dorne plot would be anything like the same story (in terms of narrative, theme, tone..) was dead the moment they decided not to cast Arianne. She’s the protagonist of the plot line, the story is ABOUT HER. It’s not about crowning Myrcella for whatever reason or Doran’s super secret plan. Stories are about characters and the things they do, not just stuff that happens.

Trying to tell the same story without the protagonist is like them trying to tell the Wall story without Jon and just being, like, “It’s alright, we can still hit the same points. Sam can be in love with Ygritte (Gilly doesn’t matter anyway), Grenn can lead the defense of the Wall, and they can elect Pyp Lord Commander. We’ll make him Hoster Tully’s bastard, so it’ll all makes sense and be just the same story."

They are clearly not trying to tell the same story though.

[Julia Martell]

They are clearly not trying to tell the same story though.

No, and with their track record I’m not incredibly hopeful that the story they are telling will be anything but an unmotivated mess. It’s possible, of course, but with what I’ve see so far, and the rumours we’ve all been hearing since last autumn... yeah, just not hopeful. I will be very pleased if it turns out I’m wrong.

And I’m just pissed that their messing with the good name of my favourite principality, okay. This is pure nerdrage you’re seeing here.

[Envie]

George's story is getting bigger and bigger every book. The show has to get smaller now they only have two more seasons left. Cutting Aegon and the Greyjoys is because they are racing towards the endgame. Think about season two and how Renly could have been cut. Just have Stannis rally the storm lands and go all guns blazing on King's Landing. Or cut the Ironborn completely and have Ramsey take Winterfell on orders from Roose before the Red Wedding. You can cut huge amounts of story out while still getting to the same plot point.

While I agree they can afford to cut many parts of the books as you gave reasonable examples, I still speculate if some things they've cut mean they have no intentions of getting to that plot point because it isn't a factor in the endgame - as in the case of Aegon. Many fans have speculated for years over whether or not the Aegon plot line actually has any endgame potential or is just a side plot to keep people guessing. Whether or not he's real or fake makes no difference since obviously even a fake can be on the throne (Joffrey, Tommen for example).

But since they have chosen to cut out the Aegon story entirely - unless they intend that to come into play in Season 6, I have to wonder if the reason is because Aegon never makes it to the Iron Throne or gets killed in Westeros. This too would seem to be the case in their decision to focus on Daenarys as the reason Varys is sending Tyrion to her instead of to Aegon. Tyrion travels up the river with Griff and Co. but they've cut that from the show too so I have to then start to assume Aegon just isn't important.

Now in the case of Dorne - we've had Quentyn and Arianne both (presumedly) cut from the story. While I can see why Quentyn was cut, I'm still unsure why they decided Arianne was not important to furthering the story but the sandsnakes are. If the case is, as you say, they simply cannot put everyone in every story, then why write in the Dorne story at all? I don't see it being of any importance to the overall Game of Thrones main story if that's the case since Aegon won't be going to Westeros, and Quentyn's not there to make a play for Daenarys (failed or not), and Arianne's Queenmaker role is gone - what's the point?

[Mladen]

The BWB was part of Arya's story now that she has moved on they are no longer needed.

The Tully's were part of Robb and Cat's story. Now that they are dead, they are no longer needed.

The Vale Lords were part of Sansa's story. Now that she has presumably moved on they are no longer needed.

I am not sure why people think that we have to return back to every little minor character we have met in the show. They are there to support the major charcters, period, no more no less.

I am sorry but those characters have its purpose. If something is left purposeless in any material, then we are talking about lazy and bad writing. BWB, Tullys and Vale lords were not just trees these characters passed by or some castle they have seen. If we are leaving these characters just because a character moved on then they were not needed in the first place. If Arya continued, why did she have to be with BWB. Same for Tullys. Same for Ironborn in Theon's story. Or Vale lords. They were not needed. And we are talking about producers contracting the story, only to figure out that throughout the 4 seasons they have given us countless needless characters.

[Clariana]

Horrible cod Spanish accent Varma was rocking too...

I would much rather they didn't attempt it, Pascal got away with it because his was natural and he made it much smoother, but both Siddig and Varma were not with it and it just came over as quite horrible... both of them have clipped British accents and in a way I wish they'd stick to those.

[Chebyshov]

This is what I think: characters are more important than plot. Plot is something that has to be born out of the character motivations. So changing a character like this, and especially so drastically, is much bigger of a deal than changing a few plot points.

Any hope we had that the Dorne plot would be anything like the same story (in terms of narrative, theme, tone..) was dead the moment they decided not to cast Arianne. She’s the protagonist of the plot line, the story is ABOUT HER. It’s not about crowning Myrcella for whatever reason or Doran’s super secret plan. Stories are about characters and the things they do, not just stuff that happens.

Trying to tell the same story without the protagonist is like them trying to tell the Wall story without Jon and just being, like, “It’s alright, we can still hit the same points. Sam can be in love with Ygritte (Gilly doesn’t matter anyway), Grenn can lead the defense of the Wall, and they can elect Pyp Lord Commander. We’ll make him Hoster Tully’s bastard, so it’ll all makes sense and be just the same story."

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[El Guapo]

I am sorry but those characters have its purpose. If something is left purposeless in any material, then we are talking about lazy and bad writing. BWB, Tullys and Vale lords were not just trees these characters passed by or some castle they have seen. If we are leaving these characters just because a character moved on then they were not needed in the first place. If Arya continued, why did she have to be with BWB. Same for Tullys. Same for Ironborn in Theon's story. Or Vale lords. They were not needed. And we are talking about producers contracting the story, only to figure out that throughout the 4 seasons they have given us countless needless characters.

They do. It is to support the main characters and their story. That's it. As for the second bolded part I have no idea what you are saying. Are you saying that Arya should have just spent almost all of season 3 talking just Hot Pie and Gendry. Oh wait they are minor characters too so I guess they weren't needed either. Arya should have just talked to herself most of the season.