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Is it Stannis duty to please that booty?


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This is literally why GRRM created Edric Storm and spirited him away to Essos. He's one royal decree away from being named Edric Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, and the line of Storm Lords will get an instant jumpstart.

Edric Storm is as good as dead. He has no literary story arc.

Gendry has an army of people with him that are looking for a cause to fight for. They literally don't know why they are fighting and for whom. Gendry also has the seed of a romance brewing with Arya. The BWB may rise up to install Gendry.

I also just noticed that this is the SONG of ice and fire. And an aria is a song sung by a singer.

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Stannis says "After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son."

I always took that too mean, though they tried, selyse never managed to give stannis a son and not the other way around.

Doesn't Davos note that Stannis... um... pleases the booty once or twice a year?
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If someone read the title of the thread and then clicked the last page and saw that the discussion is all about Courney Penrose, they's get quite the wrong idea... :lol:

:rofl: :rofl: best comment in the thread :laugh:

Ser Courtney, I accept your challenge provided that it takes place... in the bedroom.

:rofl: oh my...can't breathe. I'm crying. My flat mates going to wonder what the hell I am doung
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The condition is ridiculous. Stannis is Edric's family, not Penrose.

Penrose was Edric's guardian for all the boy's life. As far as we know Stannis never visited. Penrose likely saw Edric like a beloved nephew, at least.

On top of that Stannis needs to show Edric to as many people as he can as proof of his claim. It's why he is here.

Are we gonna pretend like Stannis didn't consider sacrificing Edric and Davos did not have to get the boy away to save his life? Stannis is here because he can't leave Storm's End in hostile hands at his back, it's Mel who is interested in Edric.

It looks more like Penrose wanted Stannis to refuse. Can he not ask to be Edric's guardian while with Stannis? Sure he can.

Can he hold Storm's End with 200 men against the guy who lived here, was in charge of the defenses and knows all about the weak spots if there are any, with the 100 to 1 advantage? Of course not.

Holding Storm's End with minimal manpower is what it's designed for and what Stannis did in this very locale 15 years ago. Knowing that Stannis is in a hurry gave Penrose a bit of leverage and good reason to hope that Stannis would eventually agree to his one demand. He couldn't have expected murder by Shadow Baby to break the stalemate. Without this Deus Ex MAchina, Stannis wouldn't have been able to take Storm's End quickly enough for his needs and what then?

So instead of making the reasonable offer, he chooses battle,

Wanting to keep Edric with him as he leaves Storm's End is reasonable.

In his letter to Riverrun he writes that he "fears for the boy". Why?

Again, are we gonna pretend that Edric's life was not in danger from Stannis? Because it was! Penrose was right! Stannis express demand to be handed a boy he never cared about in his entire life probably sounded very ominous to Penrose. His thoughts were probably more along the lines that as an acknowldged son of Robert, there was a danger that people could rally to him, bastard or not. And so he was worried that Stannis would have him killed. There are precedents... from the Baratheon themselves.

But hey, with Mel in Stannis entourage, Penrose may have been wary for the correct reason, who knows. We don't have his POV so we don't know his full reasoning to be worried for Edric's life but we know he was right! We also know he was right about Brienne not having killed Renly, for that matter, and for assuming it was Stannis behind the assassination. Will you also fault him for believing that Stannis had already killed his brother and so might commit the lesser sin of killing his nephew? Considering he was right, I don't.

He did not seem to fear for the boy when he asked the Lannisters for help.

They were not asking for Edric.

Nor for the boy's "half-brothers" when Renly declared himself king and was about to place thier heads on spikes.

What are you talking about? Renly never talked about putting Penrose or Edric's heads on spikes.

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Oh, ok, yeah Penrose did not rise to defend Tommen and Joffrey. So? He clearly loves Edric like family, he raised him. Tommen and Joffrey are strangers.

I think he's saying why did Penrose not fear for Edric when he was aligned with Renly since Renly intended to usurp Tommen and Joffrey, but there's no reason for Penrose to fear Renly, Edric is in Storm's End yet Renly did not send for him, where as Stannis is specifically demanding Edric after having Renly assassinated, there's plenty of reason for Penrose to suspect Stannis' intentions towards the boy.

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I'm with you, Penrose is right when it comes to Edric (but maybe he should gave up on Storm's End).

Well, giving up Storm's End meant giving up Edric unless Stannis relented. If I were in the same position as Penrose I'd have a hard time giving up on Edric. Giving up on Storm's End, which I'd assume felt like home, would be bad enough but if it comes to that I'd do it. But give up on the boy I raised? To a man I believe murdered his brother and is a recent convert to a religion I've heard the most awful stories about? How can anyone do that?

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1. Penrose was Edric's guardian for all the boy's life. As far as we know Stannis never visited. Penrose likely saw Edric like a beloved nephew, at least.

2. Are we gonna pretend like Stannis didn't consider sacrificing Edric and Davos did not have to get the boy away to save his life? Stannis is here because he can't leave Storm's End in hostile hands at his back, it's Mel who is interested in Edric.

3. Holding Storm's End with minimal manpower is what it's designed for and what Stannis did in this very locale 15 years ago. Knowing that Stannis is in a hurry gave Penrose a bit of leverage and good reason to hope that Stannis would eventually agree to his one demand. He couldn't have expected murder by Shadow Baby to break the stalemate. Without this Deus Ex MAchina, Stannis wouldn't have been able to take Storm's End quickly enough for his needs and what then?

4. Wanting to keep Edric with him as he leaves Storm's End is reasonable.

5. Again, are we gonna pretend that Edric's life was not in danger from Stannis? Because it was! Penrose was right! Stannis express demand to be handed a boy he never cared about in his entire life probably sounded very ominous to Penrose. His thoughts were probably more along the lines that as an acknowldged son of Robert, there was a danger that people could rally to him, bastard or not. And so he was worried that Stannis would have him killed. There are precedents... from the Baratheon themselves.

But hey, with Mel in Stannis entourage, Penrose may have been wary for the correct reason, who knows. We don't have his POV so we don't know his full reasoning to be worried for Edric's life but we know he was right! We also know he was right about Brienne not having killed Renly, for that matter, and for assuming it was Stannis behind the assassination. Will you also fault him for believing that Stannis had already killed his brother and so might commit the lesser sin of killing his nephew? Considering he was right, I don't.

6. They were not asking for Edric.

7. What are you talking about? Renly never talked about putting Penrose or Edric's heads on spikes.

1. And? Stannis is his only remaining kin. If Penrose loves the boy so much why throw the lives of himself and 200 others if he can simply ask that a condition for his surrender would be that he becomes Edric's sworn shield or sometihng? Going out in single combat or in battle, like Davos says looking for an "honourable way out", still ends up with Edric in Stannis' hands. Penrose is not worried about Edric in Stannis' hands if he is aiming for one of those outcomes.

2. Are we going to pretend that this is something that Penrose has a legitimate reason to suspect? Stannis is here because he needs the castle, and he needs Edric. When Catelyn hears that Penrose "fears for the boy" she immediately thinks that that is what Stannis is going to do with Edric. It takes the loss of Stannis' army at the Blackwater and visions in the flames telling of the end of the world for Stannis to even consider it, and that was a last resort. Penrose knows nothing about the Others, nor about Mel's power or any of it. To him Stannis wants Edric for either one of two reasons - Either Stannis fears a bastard boy with no power and no claim that he wants to kill him, or he wants proof of his claim that the twincest trio are incest bastards. Of the two, the former makes little to no sense. Comparing it to Edric in ASOS is dishonest and you should know it.

3. Holding Storm's End is one thing, holding it against a guy who knows everything about it and with 100-1 advantage is a whole other thing. He could not have expected death by shadow, but by all rights his men should have murdered him the moment he got back and told them that he refused to find any solution other than dying for no reason. Edric was going to be in Stannis' hands either way, it's the difference between them all dying and not. Without the shadow Stannis would have taken the castle in a single bloody day. Trying to pretend that it would have taken more is laughable. More so when the enemy commander knows exactly where to attack because he lived half his life there and was in charge of it's defense already.

4. No, it is not. Edric is not his kin, he is Stannis', and Stannis needs him as proof of his claim. He wants to get a hold of Edric for this reason since Davos I. If Penrose wants to play house with the boy he can also do it in Stannis' household if he really wanted it, as Edric's sworn shield. The fact that it's an all or nothing deal shows that he did not really care about Edric falling to Stannis' hands, he was after something else. An "honourable way out".

5. Again, are we going to pretend that using an anachronistic detail changes a man's reasoning in retrospect? It was not. Edric was far more in danger of getting murdered by the Lannisters had Tywin been able to reach there and defeat Stannis. This, in contrast, is something that Penrose should be aware of. The slaughter of the bastards in King's Landing had already happened. Aside from literally the end of the world and Stannis not seeing any other way out if he wants to save every living thing in Westeros, being with Stannis was the best option for Edric. Had he fallen to Lannister or Tyrell hands after the Blackwater chances are he would have been murdered for the very reason why Stannis wants him alive - He is walking proof to the genetic traits of the Baratheons.

Before being refused his condition, Penrose shows no signs that he fears what Mel would do. He only attacks Stannis as AAR and Mel's god after, when he tries to get a rise out of pretty much everyone at the parley. To claim that the guy knows about the plot of mid-ASOS, to claim that he has reason to fear that Stannis wants to kill Edric for the lulz because it's "a reasonable assumption to make" is simply not true. It does'nt make sense. Not with information at the time, and not with his actions. I don't fault him for suspecting Stannis, I fault this line of thinking that has Stannis also wanting to kill Edric. Wanting to protect Edric based on later knowledge is both illogical, and not what Penrose did. Edric would have ended up in Stannis' hands either way. Penrose changed nothing with his line of action.

6. No, but by that time they have already murdered all of Robert's bastards in the capital, which is something he should have heard of by that point.

7. Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen. Renly promised Cersei's head to Cat, was about to usurp Joffrey, wanted to remove the Lannisters, and is known to support the killing of all possible claimants to secure a hold on a title, regardless of threat at the moment (was calling to kill Viserys and Dany for years). So, Penrose is not terribly upset about the murder of children, nor even his lord's nephews, Edric's hald-brothers. But he cares for Edric suddenly? Come on.

You can paint him as a loving semi-uncle all you want. That is not what we see in the text. We see a man who bet on the wrong horse, then again, then lacked the courage to lose face and position and opted for death in a blaze of glory. A man who pretends to only have the interests of Edric at heart, but had no realistic proposition that ends differently from what he claimed to fear - Edric in Stannis' hands. It was a bullshit excuse, his actions show what he meant, and not even giving him knowledge of the books changes that to anything good.

I think he's saying why did Penrose not fear for Edric when he was aligned with Renly since Renly intended to usurp Tommen and Joffrey, but there's no reason for Penrose to fear Renly, Edric is in Storm's End yet Renly did not send for him, where as Stannis is specifically demanding Edric after having Renly assassinated, there's plenty of reason for Penrose to suspect Stannis' intentions towards the boy.

I said why is penrose claiming to fear the life of an innocent boy, but not the lives of his siblings? Why does he claim to fear for his life, and then offer fielty to the people who just went on a killing spree on his other siblings? If he questioned why Stannis is demanding Edric, even if for some reason Penrose cannot do a 1+1 like Catelyn did the instant she heard that Stannis wants the boy, he could freaking ask. None of the other lords there questioned Stannis' demand. And Renly being killed by a shadow is not even something that people have heard yet, since Brienne did the cliche escape-after-being-seen-with-the-dead-body-instead-of-trying-to-explain.

Well, if I were in the same position as Penrose I'd have a hard time giving up on Edric. Giving up on Storm's End, which I'd assume felt like home, would be bad enough but if it comes to that I'd do it. But give up on the boy I raised? To a man I believe murdered his brother and is a recent convert to a religion I've heard the most awful stories about? How can you do that?

Giving up on your work place? It's not Penrose' home. He was castellan. It was Stannis' home. It's his home once again now that Renly is dead. Did Penrose honsetly think that Stannis was going to let him keep the castle if he lost the single combat? Did he honestly feel it belongs to him for being freaking castellan? Did he honestly feel so much the uncle to Edric if he made no real move to end the siege in peace and remaining with Edric, but in Stannis' service? Did he honestly think Stannis killed Renly when everyone here claims they have people who saw the killer? Do you honestly figure that everyone and thier mother have heard stories about how most of the population of Esso sacrifices children to raise stone dragons and end the threat of the Others? Is it not far more likely that the only person he knows that follows the red faith is the old king's drinking buddy, who plays around with a fire sword in tournies?

Your reasoning for Penrose gets weaker the further we go. Now Penrose actually has the books with him. He can read the other povs and fears the plot-points of the next book. Why don't we put a stop to this here, seeing how we are clearly not going to change our minds based on anything the other says?

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Giving up on your work place? It's not Penrose' home. He was castellan. It was Stannis' home.

He lived there for 15 years! Stop drinking Stannis' Cool Aid and try seeing it from someone else's perspective. If the government kicks you out of your house after 15 years through the use of Eminent Domain law, it's legal but that still hurts. And at any rate, he was still willing to leave, just not without Edric.

Did he honestly think Stannis killed Renly when everyone here claims they have people who saw the killer?

He flat out says Brienne did not do it. He is openly suspicious of Stannis. So yes, he clearly honestly thought Stannis was behind his brother's murder. And he is right!

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Penrose fears for Edric because he believes Stannis intends to kill him, in order to rid himself of the threat of someone naming Edric as Robert's successor.

Stannis in fact wanted Edric, originally at first, to disprove the Lannister/Baratheon children as inbred bastards.

Edric was this 'proof'.

Of course Stannis, for whatever reason never told Courtnay. Why he didn't, I do not know.

Of course then Mel showed him the power of Kings Blood and he (eventually) decided to sacrafice him.

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Holding Storm's End is one thing, holding it against a guy who knows everything about it and with 100-1 advantage is a whole other thing. He could not have expected death by shadow, but by all rights his men should have murdered him the moment he got back and told them that he refused to find any solution other than dying for no reason. Edric was going to be in Stannis' hands either way, it's the difference between them all dying and not. Without the shadow Stannis would have taken the castle in a single bloody day.

Stannis could have taken Storm's End in a single bloody day... after a few weeks preparations. Building the necessary siege engines, tunnelling etc. Storm'End is a fantasy scaled fortress with higher walls than anything in the real world, you don't take it with ropes and ladders.

But Stannis did not have the time to prepare for such an assault which gave Penrose some minimal leverage. Without the shadowbaby solution, he'd likely have been forced to agree to let Edric go with Penrose.

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Stannis and Maekar have different situations.

Maekar and Baelor were in good terms, despite Maekar resented his brother. They also fought together and there is no indication Maekar was belittled by his older brother. It was also not Baelor's fault that his kids were better knights: Looks like Maekar simply allowed Aerion to go and do as he liked.

Robert, Stannis and Renly never got along. Stannis also felt Robert treated him bad (why wouldn't he? Didn't he deflower Selyse's cousin not only during their wedding feast but on his own bed?) and Robert didn't have that much appreciation for his brother. Idem for Renly: he openly mocked him.

Everybody saw that Maekar and Baelor had to fight due to what happened in the Tourney of Ashford. They both chose their sides. Maekar had to fight for his son, because it was his fucking son. Baelor chose to fight against him. Anyone could have seen this as Baelor going against his family, but being Baelor Baelor, they realised it was the honourable thing to do. And the doubt was created because they knew Maekar resented Baelor. We know Maekar never wanted to do it but there were witnesses who could testify Maekar was not behind the Combat nor could have he foreseen Baelor joining. It was all a messed created by Maekar' idiot sons.

Both Renly and Stannis rebelled against the Iron Throne, and then, Renly defied Stannis. I like Renly and I think he could have been a great King, but the true is that after Robert's death, Renly owed Stannis fealty as his older brother and liege. Cat got it right: they both were acting childish by fighting each other when they were meant to do it together to defeat the Lannisters.

Renly had every intention of attacking Stannis and Stannis had every right to defend himself from being killed. This meant war. And war meant death. What Stannis did was what Tywin believed the Red Wedding died. Yes, Stannis killed his brother but no other men died (except those who Loras killed). Of course, the strangeness of the situation cause the Tyrells to go and join someone else. But many men did join Stannis and he accepted them. What he did was right? debatable.

A good summary of the situation. +1 to you.

I don't have that much of a problem with Renly being shadowbabied, because at that point the Baratheon brothers are at war, Renly was ready to have Stannis killed and unlike the Red Wedding, this method actually minimized collateral damage to the strict minimum. Ironically, the Renly-Stannis was the shortest, least bloody one in the series precisely because Stannis used magic to assassinate his brother.

Penrose is another can of worms. There isn't much notion of right here; he was in the way and got killed. He had no obligation to see Stannis as his rightful king, at this point, and every right to defend Edric and SE from the guy who walked away from the corpse of the previous Lord of Storm's End before it was cold. I mean, I like Stannis, but let's not be blind here. Penrose did not deserve to be murdered, even Stannis himself recognizes that.

Also, didn't this thread start by talking about Selyse?

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I think that after you say that killing Renly was fine, you have to say Penrose is fine as well. Even if Penrose had good reasons to defy Stannis, he is still in rebellion and accepting the risks that come along with that. If Stannis is right to kill his own brother for something, surely he can kill Penrose for doing the same thing.


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I think that after you say that killing Renly was fine, you have to say Penrose is fine as well. Even if Penrose had good reasons to defy Stannis, he is still in rebellion and accepting the risks that come along with that. If Stannis is right to kill his own brother for something, surely he can kill Penrose for doing the same thing.

Point was that killing Renly was wrong, since he's his brother, therefore, Penrose thought Stannis want to kill all his kin.

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Point was that killing Renly was wrong, since he's his brother, therefore, Penrose thought Stannis want to kill all his kin.

But Penrose couldn't have known Stannis killed Renly. Everyone believed it was Brienne or Catelyn, their version of what happened wasn't well known, in fact the only person who knew their version (Loras) did not believe her. They had only just reached Edmure and didn't even tell him of the shadow.

Penrose did say he didn't believe it was Brienne or Catelyn, but he also didn't indicate he thought it was Stannis.If anything he implicated the knights who switched to Stannis after Renly's death.

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But Penrose couldn't have known Stannis killed Renly. Everyone believed it was Brienne or Catelyn, their version of what happened wasn't well known, in fact the only person who knew their version (Loras) did not believe her. They had only just reached Edmure and didn't even tell him of the shadow.

Penrose did say he didn't believe it was Brienne or Catelyn, but he also didn't indicate he thought it was Stannis.If anything he implicated the knights who switched to Stannis after Renly's death.

It's not exactly a massive leap of logic, though, is it? Who had the greatest motive to kill Renly at that point? Who benefitted the most from his death?

That people buy into the Brienne story so easily and go over to Stannis as a result doesn't speak all that highly of their intelligence. Even if you accept that Brienne could have killed Renly it doesn't strike anyone as a remarkable and truly exceptional coincidence that she did so right then? And that it's rather likely that even if she did kill Renly herself she almost certainly did so on Stannis's account?

I think Penrose was justified in calling horseshit on the Brienne story and instead drawing his own conclusions. Especially since he was right.

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