Who killed Little Walder?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ha good catch!

Little Walder is of the Blackwood Frey's, whose number include Lame Lothar Frey ie; the Frey who pretended to be Robb's buddy and lured Robb to the Twins to attend Edmure's weddin), and then planned the way in which the Reins of Castamere would be used to murder the guests.

Merrett calls him one of the most dangerous of all Frey's too.

Little Walder is Merett's son by Mariya Darry, and Merett's mother was Amerie Crakehall.

Big Walder descends from Walder and Alyssa Blackwood, through Jammod Frey.

[danm_999]

Little Walder is Merett's son by Mariya Darry, and Merett's mother was Amerie Crakehall.

Big Walder descends from Walder and Alyssa Blackwood, through Jammod Frey.

Yes I meant Big Walder, given that my suspicion is he killed Little Walder.

[edd tollett:(]

I think the question is, was big acting alone or was he in league with Manderly or anyone else?

I would doubt either bolton, I believe Roose to smart to do such a thing, considering how his control over the situation, at winterfell, is tenuous at best. Roose doesn't need to drive a wedge between the frey's and the Manderlys, it is already there. Why risk a total break down of ctl just to sow more discord, for what purpose? And IIRC Roose didn't seem so happy in the moment. He's usually Mr. cool, especially when things are going his way.

Ramsey, besides just being insane, I don't see why he would do it. It seems to me like Ramsey picks favorites and, imo, little was a favorite. You can use the argument that Ramsey ' s men are really Roose ' s but that's not true of little so again, why?

So my guess is it was big, possibly with the help/encouragement of a northern lord/lady. Most likely lord Manderly. If this is the case, is there more to the plot? Or was this just a case of opportunity.

[Knight of the Teabags]

I think the question is, was big acting alone or was he in league with Manderly or anyone else?

So my guess is it was big, possibly with the help/encouragement of a northern lord/lady. Most likely lord Manderly. If this is the case, is there more to the plot? Or was this just a case of opportunity.

My theory as I outlined up thread is Manderly guards with Big Walder as an accomplice to murder, his motive being personal survival. For me it goes back to a brief conversation between 'Reek' and Big Walder when they are alone in the stables at Barrowton just after Ramsey has returned not finding Rhaegar, Jared and Symond Frey who had become lost on the road from White Harbor.

REEK "Did you find your cousins, my lord?"

BIG WALDER "No. I never thought we would. They're dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That's what I would have done if I was him."

What's telling is that Big Walder is already putting himself in Lord Manderly's head. He gets precisely how pissed the Northmen are with the Freys and even to a degree understands why they are acting the way they are. The other thing that is very revealing is that Big Walder passes absolutely no judgement on what he thinks Lord Manderly has done to his cousins no bloody Lord Wyman, no fucking Lord Wyman, just plain Lord Wyman, he's very careful about what he says about Lord Manderly. He seems to be considering his situation very seriously.

We later see the same care with his words when the body of Little Walder is found.

"Under that ruined keep, my lord," replied Big Walder. "The one with the old gargoyles." The boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood. "I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver."

"What man?" Ramsey demanded. "Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin."

"He never said, my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice." The Frey boy hesitated. "It was some White Harbor men who taught dice. I couldn't say which ones, but it was them."

The hesitation is important, because I believe this is where Big Walder holds back on what he knows I think he knows exactly which White Harbor men killed Little Walder because he helped them to do it. Also note that though Big Walder provides a trail of evidence that points at Lord Manderly and the White Harbor men it is all pretty circumstantial. Little Walder was killed while looking for men he'd won coin from at dice/some of the White Harbor teach dice <= the White Harbor men killed Little Walder. Big Walder doesn't actually accuse Lord Manderly at all, he leaves that to the stooge who he showed the body to Ser Hosteen "Ser Stupid" Frey. Why Ser Hosteen and not Ser Aenys who is actually the senior Frey at Winterfell? It is very interesting that when a boy of above average intelligence finds his cousin dead in the snow he goes to the member of his family who has a nationwide reputation for being an idiot, I mean Stannis who doesn't even live in the Riverlands knows that Ser Hosteen isn't the brightest so an actual member of the Frey family should!

Anyway Ser Hosteen proceeds to make a largely unsubstantiated accusation against Lord Manderly who goads him into attacking him and his party, leaving a situation where the Freys have behaved as badly and potentially as the evidence stands far worse than Manderly and Roose Bolton cannot really favour the Frey side by putting Manderly on trial.

[BitsOfBrains]

My theory as I outlined up thread is Manderly guards with Big Walder as an accomplice to murder, his motive being personal survival. For me it goes back to a brief conversation between 'Reek' and Big Walder when they are alone in the stables at Barrowton just after Ramsey has returned not finding Rhaegar, Jared and Symond Frey who had become lost on the road from White Harbor.

REEK "Did you find your cousins, my lord?"

BIG WALDER "No. I never thought we would. They're dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That's what I would have done if I was him."

What's telling is that Big Walder is already putting himself in Lord Manderly's head. He gets precisely how pissed the Northmen are with the Freys and even to a degree understands why they are acting the way they are. The other thing that is very revealing is that Big Walder passes absolutely no judgement on what he thinks Lord Manderly has done to his cousins no bloody Lord Wyman, no fucking Lord Wyman, just plain Lord Wyman, he's very careful about what he says about Lord Manderly. He seems to be considering his situation very seriously.

We later see the same care with his words when the body of Little Walder is found.

"Under that ruined keep, my lord," replied Big Walder. "The one with the old gargoyles." The boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood. "I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver."

"What man?" Ramsey demanded. "Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin."

"He never said, my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice." The Frey boy hesitated. "It was some White Harbor men who taught dice. I couldn't say which ones, but it was them."

The hesitation is important, because I believe this is where Big Walder holds back on what he knows I think he knows exactly which White Harbor men killed Little Walder because he helped them to do it. Also note that though Big Walder provides a trail of evidence that points at Lord Manderly and the White Harbor men it is all pretty circumstantial. Little Walder was killed while looking for men he'd won coin from at dice/some of the White Harbor teach dice <= the White Harbor men killed Little Walder. Big Walder doesn't actually accuse Lord Manderly at all, he leaves that to the stooge who he showed the body to Ser Hosteen "Ser Stupid" Frey. Why Ser Hosteen and not Ser Aenys who is actually the senior Frey at Winterfell? It is very interesting that when a boy of above average intelligence finds his cousin dead in the snow he goes to the member of his family who has a nationwide reputation for being an idiot, I mean Stannis who doesn't even live in the Riverlands knows that Ser Hosteen isn't the brightest so an actual member of the Frey family should!

Anyway Ser Hosteen proceeds to make a largely unsubstantiated accusation against Lord Manderly who goads him into attacking him and his party, leaving a situation where the Freys have behaved as badly and potentially as the evidence stands far worse than Manderly and Roose Bolton cannot really favour the Frey side by putting Manderly on trial.

I'm not exactly sure how that help Manderlys cause, getting himself accused. I mean isn't he dying right now? Didn't a bunch of his loyal men get killed?

I think Lord Manderly was genuinely offended and rightly so that he be accused of killing a child. Just doesn't seem like he is that kind of a guy.

[Corpse Sniffer]

I think the hooded man is a Dustin. He/she is definitely in league with someone in the castle but Lady Dustins chat with theon in the crypts proves to me that the Boltons and Freys aren't part of her end game. Whoever is doing the killings though definitely wants Stannis to win this battle though.

[aryagonnakill#2]

If Manderly was involved he would have done something to make it work out more in his favor. For example had his men kill Big Walder afterwards too, or at least arrange for it to happen away from his own men, perhaps nearer to Dustin men since Roose thinks Lady Dustin is on his side. He could also have buried the body in a large snowbank so that no 1 found the body and it simply caused confusion.

[Lord BitterRaven]

The only reason Manderly is behaving the way he is right now is 1. He really doesn't care what happens to himself 2. He knows that the North is on the cusp of getting the revenge they want 3. He knows he doesn't have to hide his disdain for the freys. And I know that the Freys aren't exactly the most family oriented house in Westeros, and while it doesn't seem like they mind doing whatever it takes to get ahead in the line of succession, I find it unlikely that they would do it while also weaking their own situation. Remember, Freys will do whatever to stay alive, that much is clear, but killing his family right now with all the chaos in Winterfell is going nothing but inching himself closer to death. Freys are many things but stupid isn't one of them.

No, this is being done by another force, either the hooded man or a group. I'm leaning towards the hooded man whose identity I think is the Blackfish. Who else in the story do we know of that's sneaky, smart, and dangerous? (besides ramsay of course)

[Knight of the Teabags]

I'm not exactly sure how that help Manderlys cause, getting himself accused. I mean isn't he dying right now? Didn't a bunch of his loyal men get killed?

I think Lord Manderly was genuinely offended and rightly so that he be accused of killing a child. Just doesn't seem like he is that kind of a guy.

With respect we read Lord Manderly very differently then because I read Lord Manderly as the kind of a guy who is quite capable of quite a lot of things to the Freys and the Boltons in the situation we find him at Winterfell.

Is he really that offended by the accusation that he might be behind the murder of Little Walder? Because we get an example of an reaction of somebody who is.

He [Theon] glanced at Rowan. There are six of them, he remembered. Any of them could done this. But the washerwoman felt his eyes. "This was no work of ours," she said.

In contrast we have Lord Manderly.

"Do you deny it?"

The Lord of White Harbor bit a sausage in half. "I confess..." He wiped the grease from his lips with his sleeve. "...I confess that I know little of this poor boy. Lord Ramsey's squire, was he not? How old was the lad?"

"Nine, on his last nameday."

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."

Lord Manderly does not deny it, he even pretends to be about to confess the crime! An individual who was truly offended by the suggestion I believe like Rowan would outright deny it, Manderly on the other hand taking his time over the accusation and choosing his words cleverly lets the idea simmer a while in "Ser Stupid's" head and then prods it again. He goads (getting in a 'mayhaps'* on the way) Ser Hosteen into attacking him plain and simple. He may or may not be actually behind the murder, but he clearly doesn't have a problem with Ser Hosteen Frey thinking he is.

As to what is so important for Lord Manderly to take such a dangerous risk with his own life and those of his men. Well remember the Freys who came to White Harbor told Manderly a BS story about Robb Stark turning werewolf at the Red Wedding. Now when Ser Hosteen Frey drew his sword on Lord Manderly in the great hall at Winterfell, the Freys openly broke guest right yet again and any doubt that they did not commit the Red Wedding was shattered forever in the minds of all the northern Lords present.

Power, as Varys tells us exists where men believe it to be, whether or not Manderly killed Little Walder the idea that he did was used to provoke Ser Hosteen Frey into showing the true colours of House Frey. "Ser Stupid" indeed...

* As per the rules of Lord of the Crossing.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Ha good catch!

Big Walder is of the Blackwood Frey's, whose number include Lame Lothar Frey ie; the Frey who pretended to be Robb's buddy and lured Robb to the Twins to attend Edmure's weddin), and then planned the way in which the Reins of Castamere would be used to murder the guests.

Merrett calls him one of the most dangerous of all Frey's too.

I think BranVras' "Winterfell Huis Clos" contains some great observations regarding the different Freys. I am not sure, that her overall conclusion (Little Walder was killed by Ramsay) is correct, but he/she has great points about Big Walder and Lame Lothar:

• considering that the Freys do not let daughters inherit and Lame Lothar only has daughters, Big Walder is his heir

since killing in-laws does not count as kinslaying, Lame Lothar is the most likely person to have committed kinslaying during the RW, since Lucas Blackwood was killed in the event and Lothar is a Blackwood-Frey and planned the whole event

most Freys consider him dangerous

he seems to have a good rapport with Roose Bolton, which says a lot about his character

he sends family members as envoys to WH, in spite of several people (Godric Borrell, Big Walder) thinking, that Lord Manderly would kill them as revenge (which he did). Since Lame Lothar is described as being cunning, he should have known about the danger.

the Blackwood-Freys are the oldest branch, that did not profit from the RW (through marriages, castles, etc.) even though Lame Lothar likely became kinslayer

Just read the part, it is very interesting.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Walda.html

[Cladinator]

I was always thought it was the Hooded Man or someone from Manderly's party. I never actually suspected the other Walder.

[John Doe]

A Stark spirit, escaped from the crypts.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I was always thought it was the Hooded Man or someone from Manderly's party. I never actually suspected the other Walder.

IIRC Little Walder was covered in blood spatter. From my experience watching CSI, this means, that Little Walder was standing very close to Big Walder, when he was killed. So Little Walder

• either killed Big Walder himself

or was an accomplice and let someone else do the killing

or was an innocent bystander and now is too afraid to talk.

Either way, Little Walder is holding back important information.

[Not a kneeler]

Drat you, George. We are getting confused. Big Walder is the little one and Little Walder is the big one. Little Walder is the one who got killed, but physically he is the big one. Unless he had an accomplice, Big Walder killed Little Walder because blood splatters when it comes out under force. It didn't drip on him; it splattered him..

We don't know why, but we have two clues. One, Little Walder was becoming a second Ramsey and Big Walder had enough embarrassing family members. Two: Little Walder was ahead of Big Walder in the line of secession.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Drat you, George. We are getting confused. Big Walder is the little one and Little Walder is the big one. Little Walder is the one who got killed, but physically he is the big one. Unless he had an accomplice, Big Walder killed Little Walder because blood splatters when it comes out under force. It didn't drip on him; it splattered him..

We don't know why, but we have two clues. One, Little Walder was becoming a second Ramsey and Big Walder had enough embarrassing family members. Two: Little Walder was ahead of Big Walder in the line of secession.

I do not think, that the inheritance of the Twins played a big role in Little Walder's murder. Big Walder seems like a very astute young man (he for instance sees, that the Freys going to White Harbour will be in great danger of being killed by Wyman Manderly as revenge for the Red Wedding), so he should know, that killing Little Walder to get ahead in the succession carries great risks and extremely low rewards (there are still a few dozen Freys ahead of him).

BranVras thinks, that Little Walder was killed by Ramsey, because he was likely spying on Ramsey (Little Walder is Fat Walda's little brother and since Fat Walda through her children and Ramsey both lay claim to the Dreadfort, there is a big conflict between Ramsey and the Crakehall Freys.

You really should read it, it can be found here:

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html

Another interesting tidbit in this analysis is his/her theory, that Big Walder's certainty to be the eventual lord of The Twins comes from him being Lame Lothar's heir and that Lame Lothar is the one really plotting to kill his relatives in order to become lord of The Crossing.

[Hoppy Hour]

Big Walder

It is known.

[evita mgfs]

Actually, Brandon Stark kills Little Walder, inspired by the greatest greenseer whose magic grows exponentially after Bran's final POV in ADwD.

I won't go into all my evidences and analytical thought, as I am including them in another thread, but Bran likely has the power/magic to turn stone to flesh, or animate stone.

Bran especially despised Little Walder, whose body is found near the tower from which Bran fell, which is also located near the crypt entrance. Little Walder said mean things to and about Hodor, even calling him a horse; Bran resents that Rickon allowed Little and Big Walder into a sacred Stark place, the crypts. Bran also despises LW for cheating - and not involving Bran- in a game called Lord of the Crossing.

These are but a few of LW's offenses against Bran and those he loves.

Brandon Stark's statue has been burned by fire and anointed in blood (AGoT). He has no sword, and none of those fallen died by a blade, even though they are strong and imbued with a fighting spirit.

[Roswell]

Big Walder

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Brandon Stark's statue has been burned by fire and anointed in blood (AGoT).

Quotes?

[Ultima II]

That cousin of his. Big Walder. For several reasons:

1. Little Walder was becoming a monster like Ramsay. He needed to go.
   
2. He's ahead of the line to succeed Lord Walder. That's one of the competition out of the way. Big Walder might end up a skilled player in the Game.