Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If Tor needs to reprimand Wright, then somebody needs to rein in Scalzi, too...but even he has stated that authors are not employees and linked to Mamatas' post: http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1924475.html, Kojiro,Not defending Wright in any way, shape, or form but sending someone a check, in and of itself, does not make the writer of the check an "employer". So, okay... let me get this straight. If someone gives their own private opinion using "mean words*" to another person in a "public" place, it's okay for the company they work for to give them a public reprimand as long as they aren't a sexual harasser (Frenkel), a contracted freelancer (Wright, Scalzi), or male (Fodera)? Do I have that right? *Frankly, what I've seen of the Puppies so far make Gallo's comments look pretty damn accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I don't even know who this Irene Gallo is, let alone what she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I don't even know who this Irene Gallo is, let alone what she did. She called the Sad Puppies "extreme Right-wingers" and the Rabid Puppies "Neo-Nazis" in a Facebook post on her personal Facebook page. Pretty much, it was no different or worse than any other person with a Facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Kojiro,So, okay... let me get this straight. If someone gives their own private opinion using "mean words*" to another person in a "public" place, it's okay for the company they work for to give them a public reprimand as long as they aren't a sexual harasser (Frenkel), a contracted freelancer (Wright, Scalzi), or male (Fodera)? Do I have that right? *Frankly, what I've seen of the Puppies so far make Gallo's comments look pretty damn accurate.No. All I'm saying is that giving someone a paycheck doesn't automatically make someone an employee. No more, no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerSack Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 So, she more then likely was speaking the truth by those statements. Wow, shame on her. Also, if you are an author, such as John Wright, being paid by a Tor publishing and your name and theirs are both on the book, then yes, you represent that company as a business associate. The idea such as you pay a landlord for rent and that is the same is really pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Public screw ups require public apologies. This isn't rocket science. There was no throwing Gallo under the bus. That would imply that there was something the company was doing as a group which they needed to diffuse anger over. In this case, Gallo decided to say some stupid stuff in public and Tor clarified that it wasn't the company's position and that all employees need to be more careful about delineating between official and unofficial opinions. If Gallo ended up under a bus it's because she decided to throw herself under it. I really don't get this whole thing where people try to compare Tor's reaction to Gallo and Frenkel. What Frenkel did wasn't really public, I don't recall anyone accusing him of representing Tor's official position, and Tor fired him over it. I'm sure terminating someone over an issue is more of a statement then slapping someone on the wrist, it's weird to me that other people don't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Public screw ups require public apologies. This isn't rocket science. There was no throwing Gallo under the bus. That would imply that there was something the company was doing as a group which they needed to diffuse anger over. In this case, Gallo decided to say some stupid stuff in public and Tor clarified that it wasn't the company's position and that all employees need to be more careful about delineating between official and unofficial opinions. If Gallo ended up under a bus it's because she decided to throw herself under it. I really don't get this whole thing where people try to compare Tor's reaction to Gallo and Frenkel. What Frenkel did wasn't really public, I don't recall anyone accusing him of representing Tor's official position, and Tor fired him over it. I'm sure terminating someone over an issue is more of a statement then slapping someone on the wrist, it's weird to me that other people don't see it that way. Here's several blog articles that very clearly describe why Tor's public reprimand of Gallo was every bit a screw up. Two of them even go into how Tor could have handled it better. And, actually, yes, it did throw Gallo under the bus. Your rebuttal also curiously skips Fodera's misogynist public comments. Anyway, the articles: http://charman-anderson.com/2015/06/10/how-tor-failed-social-media-101/ http://bernalalpha.blogspot.com/2015/06/double-standards-tor-books.html?spref=tw http://www.harryjconnolly.com/index.php/tors-dumb-letter/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerSack Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Ms.Gallo showed the courage to express her opinion and outrage towards some extremely ignorant groups. If you look at what she is responding too and not the statements on their own you would I hope see things differently. TOR is attempting to protect their own assets by trying to remain neutral and not letting employees speak their mind against ignorance, it is a cowardly way of doing business for profits alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Here's several blog articles that very clearly describe why Tor's public reprimand of Gallo was every bit a screw up. Two of them even go into how Tor could have handled it better. And, actually, yes, it did throw Gallo under the bus. Your rebuttal also curiously skips Fodera's misogynist public comments. Anyway, the articles: http://charman-anderson.com/2015/06/10/how-tor-failed-social-media-101/ http://bernalalpha.blogspot.com/2015/06/double-standards-tor-books.html?spref=tw http://www.harryjconnolly.com/index.php/tors-dumb-letter/ Those articles are all bullshit. And, actually, no Gallo didn't get thrown under a bus. My rebuttal only talked about Frenkel. I didn't comment on Fodera because I didn't know who he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Those articles are all bullshit. And, actually, no Gallo didn't get thrown under a bus. My rebuttal only talked about Frenkel. I didn't comment on Fodera because I didn't know who he was. Well hopefully you do now, so answer me: Where's Fodera's public reaming? I mean, if you're going to dismiss all of these concerns as "bullshit" and claim Gallo's public humiliation is warranted, where's Fodera's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I just love that people are referring to "Gallo's public humiliation". It's like some people have never spent one second in the real world. Fodera made some sexist remarks about Mary Robinette Kowal on the SFWA listserve relating to them interacting as members of the SFWA. I don't see how it is any business of Tor's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I just love that people are referring to "Gallo's public humiliation". It's like some people have never spent one second in the real world. Fodera made some sexist remarks about Mary Robinette Kowal on the SFWA listserve relating to them interacting as members of the SFWA. I don't see how it is any business of Tor's. Then how is a comment on a private Facebook page any business of Tor's? Oh, right... just because. Why? Because. Glad we got that all cleared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Still don't even know who Irene Gallo is. Editor? Author? Satan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Still don't even know who Irene Gallo is. Editor? Author? Satan? She's the creative director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Oh uh, I don't know what that would actually entail. Tor sure does publish a lot of uh questionable material lately though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_director Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Rhinos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It wasn't a private facebook page, it was a personal facebook page. And she was busily promoting a Tor product (in fact if you look at the facebook page that seems to be the main point of the page) when she decided to insult a bunch of fans, coworkers, and authors. Which lead to some of these people lodging complaints against her and wondering what Tor's stance on the issue was, which lead to Tor's publisher making an official statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodostark Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Are you guys really serious with this "authors totally are like employees and represent their publishers" stuff? Actual working writers (Scalzi and Mamatas) say that's just not so...and these are guys who are not fans of the Sad Puppies or Tor's handling of Gallo. You can hate Wright, if you like, but Tor cannot interact with him the way they do Gallo, even if they dislike his beliefs, Oh uh, I don't know what that would actually entail. Tor sure does publish a lot of uh questionable material lately though. She's in charge of the covers for Tor's books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodostark Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It wasn't a private facebook page, it was a personal facebook page. And she was busily promoting a Tor product (in fact if you look at the facebook page that seems to be the main point of the page) when she decided to insult a bunch of fans, coworkers, and authors. Which lead to some of these people lodging complaints against her and wondering what Tor's stance on the issue was, which lead to Tor's publisher making an official statement. Gallo basically said, "Buy Kameron Hurley's book because she's not sucky or a Nazi...unlike Jim Butcher." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojiro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It wasn't a private facebook page, it was a personal facebook page. Semantics? Really? And she was busily promoting a Tor product (in fact if you look at the facebook page that seems to be the main point of the page) when she decided to insult a bunch of fans, coworkers, and authors. Which lead to some of these people lodging complaints against her and wondering what Tor's stance on the issue was, which lead to Tor's publisher making an official statement. You realize that Vox Day sat on the screenshot for a whole freaking month, right? A MONTH. If it hadn't been for him, no one would have ever even heard of it. Are you guys really serious with this "authors totally are like employees and represent their publishers" stuff? Actual working writers (Scalzi and Mamatas) say that's just not so...and these are guys who are not fans of the Sad Puppies or Tor's handling of Gallo. You can hate Wright, if you like, but Tor cannot interact with him the way they do Gallo, even if they dislike his beliefs, And apparently that editor is exempt because it happened where it "wasn't Tor's business." Give me a fucking break. I smell two very stinky Puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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