Hugo Drama III: Will "the ilk" come to Spokane?

[Lord of Rhinos]

Not semantics. If her statements were made on a private facebook page and then leaked it would be a different situation but she put that comment up for the entire world to see. Vox Day sitting on the screenshot for month is irrelevant when it comes to how Tor should respond to complaints.

[Kojiro]

Not semantics. If her statements were made on a private facebook page and then leaked it would be a different situation but she put that comment up for the entire world to see. Vox Day sitting on the screenshot for month is irrelevant when it comes to how Tor should respond to complaints.

"For the whole world to see" provided you dug thoroughly through all of the posts and comments, and knew what you were looking for. Puh-lease. You're going a long way to defend a double standard and it's frankly revolting.

[buff daddy]

I just wish people working with some semblance of humanity, especially those with a high profile, would stop responding to these radical, elitist sects. If there is one thing that inspires masses of fools to keep spewing there vitriol its getting attention, it is their preferred method of self love.

Yeah, the very vocal extremist minorities on both sides of this whole debacle make statements and have opinions that are so hyperbolic, shameless and embarassing that I'm glad I don't know, and especially don't have to interact with, anyone like them irl. If online behavior is representative of how they are irl, I have no idea why anyone would want to attend the conventions any of em are involved with

[Lord of Rhinos]

The idea that Tom Doherty only wrote his open letter because Irene Gallo is a woman is one of the more laughably stupid things I've ever heard.

[Kojiro]

The idea that Tom Doherty only wrote his open letter because Irene Gallo is a woman is one of the more laughably stupid things I've ever heard.

If the shoe fits.

[Darth Richard II]

Well personal Facebook is still a persons personal Facebook, but it would depend how she uses it. If uts been mostly her personal stuff then that's bullshit but if she uses it for company related things, I dunno. It's all really a pile of shit at this point. Not sure what Kameron Hurley has to do with Tor? As far as I know she's never published a book with them.

[Darth Richard II]

The idea that Tom Doherty only wrote his open letter because Irene Gallo is a woman is one of the more laughably stupid things I've ever heard.

That does seem like a bit of a stretch, yes.

[Kojiro]

That does seem like a bit of a stretch, yes.

Is it a "stretch" in the wake of that sexual harasser that took forever to get rid of, or that editor who made misogynistic comments about an author? Is it a stretch, considering that someone at Tor (maybe Doherty himself?) thought it was a good idea to have OPEN comments on that public reprimand, turning it into a LYNCHING (allowing Wright to write in that hateful homophobic screed)? The implications are not good. It shows a trend of misogyny in Tor's office.

[Darth Richard II]

I honestly don't know anything about those things, or the man himself really. Maybe there is a trend. Maybe there isn't. I certainly agree with you about Wright, that man is, to be techniccal,a piece of shit.

[buff daddy]

Is it a "stretch" in the wake of that sexual harasser that took forever to get rid of, or that editor who made misogynistic comments about an author? Is it a stretch, considering that someone at Tor (maybe Doherty himself?) thought it was a good idea to have OPEN comments on that public reprimand, turning it into a LYNCHING (allowing Wright to write in that hateful homophobic screed)? The implications are not good. It shows a trend of misogyny in Tor's office.

anything that requires alex jones level conspiracy theory logic is a "stretch" imho

[Kojiro]

anything that requires alex jones level conspiracy theory logic is a "stretch" imho

Rather ironic of you to say, considering that Alex would fit in pretty well among the Puppies. :rolleyes:

[Lord of Rhinos]

Jim Frenkel was fired by Tor when official complaints of sexual harassment were made and investigated. I don't see any reason for a public apology. I think a private apology would be completely appropriate.

Sean Fodera made sexist remarks about Mary Robinette Kowal due to both of them being involved in an organization (SFWA) that was not Tor. Kowal said it was no big deal. Fodera apologized. I don't see why Tor would need to apologize for anything.

Irene Gallo calls a bunch of fans and authors "unrepentantly racist, misogynist and homophobic" while promoting a new book from Tor. Then goes on to say that a bunch of books are "bad-to-reprehensible" including work published and edited by Tor and books and stories written by people that Tor would like to work with. Multiple complaints are filed against her and there's a lot of noisy online activity asking what Tor's official position on the issue is. Tor's publisher posts a letter saying that Gallo's position is not Tor's position and their employees have been reminded to clarify the difference in the future.

For some reason there's a group of people out there that think these three situations should all be dealt with the same way and the only reason they weren't was sexism.

[Kojiro]

Jim Frenkel was fired by Tor when official complaints of sexual harassment were made and investigated. I don't see any reason for a public apology. I think a private apology would be completely appropriate.

Actually he resigned. And considering he was representing Tor books during the times of the sexual harassment, how would there be no reason for a public apology?

Sean Fodera made sexist remarks about Mary Robinette Kowal due to both of them being involved in an organization (SFWA) that was not Tor. Kowal said it was no big deal. Fodera apologized. I don't see why Tor would need to apologize for anything.

He's a Tor employee, making a public, sexist statement about women in sci-fi and fantasy, and if we're following the same logic about Tor employees making public statements, why wouldn't there be a reason for Tor to apologize?

Irene Gallo calls a bunch of fans and authors "unrepentantly racist, misogynist and homophobic" while promoting a new book from Tor.

On her Facebook. And I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary about their racism, misogyny and homophobia. In fact, in a few cases, she was being far too kind.

Then goes on to say that a bunch of books are "bad-to-reprehensible" including work published and edited by Tor and books and stories written by people that Tor would like to work with.

I wouldn't call Kevin J. Anderson or John C. Wright "decent." And mind you, this is still all on her Facebook page.

Multiple complaints are filed against her and there's a lot of noisy online activity asking what Tor's official position on the issue is. Tor's publisher posts a letter saying that Gallo's position is not Tor's position and their employees have been reminded to clarify the difference in the future.

You mean, a month later, right when the Nebula Awards get announced, Vox Day releases a screenshot of her comment on her Facebook page on his Twitter account and manufactures an uprage that didn't exist the month ago when the comment was made. You also left out Gallo's apology on her Facebook, already stating her opinions did not reflect Tor books. But for some silly reason, that wasn't enough and a few days later Tom Doherty publicly reprimands her on Tor.com and for some reason leaves the comment form wide open for every maladjusted, sociopathic Puppy to publicly lynch her, calling for her firing.

For some reason there's a group of people out there that think these three situations should all be dealt with the same way and the only reason they weren't was sexism.

For some reason there's a group of people out there who think only white straight men are allowed to have opinions.

[Lord of Rhinos]

Actually he resigned. And considering he was representing Tor books during the times of the sexual harassment, how would there be no reason for a public apology?

Where are you getting the information that he resigned from?

Apologies should be given to the people effected. If someone complains about being harassed you apologize to them not the world at large.

He's a Tor employee, making a public, sexist statement about women in sci-fi and fantasy, and if we're following the same logic about Tor employees making public statements, why wouldn't there be a reason for Tor to apologize?

You don't actually know what Sean Fodera said do you?

On her Facebook. And I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary about their racism, misogyny and homophobia. In fact, in a few cases, she was being far too kind.

:rolleyes: not even in the same ballpark as the point.

I wouldn't call Kevin J. Anderson or John C. Wright "decent." And mind you, this is still all on her Facebook page.

So? No one was forcing her to publicly comment.

You mean, a month later, right when the Nebula Awards get announced, Vox Day releases a screenshot of her comment on her Facebook page on his Twitter account and manufactures an uprage that didn't exist the month ago when the comment was made. You also left out Gallo's apology on her Facebook, already stating her opinions did not reflect Tor books. But for some silly reason, that wasn't enough and a few days later Tom Doherty publicly reprimands her on Tor.com and for some reason leaves the comment form wide open for every maladjusted, sociopathic Puppy to publicly lynch her, calling for her firing.

How her comments came to light isn't really relevant. Her apology and Tom Doherty's open letter were posted the same day. I've already said how I feel about the comments being left on.

[Darth Richard II]

What book was she promoting? Hurley only has work with Angry Robot and nightshade.

[Darth Richard II]

Forgive the double post, but dies any one have a link to directly what happened?

Also, was this clearly marks as her personal Facebook before all this it had she used for business things before. That alone can make a big difference in how these things are handled.

Leaving the comments on in the post was a dumb fucking move, no argument there.

Trying to get a more curate picture of what happened here, I seem to have missed the whole thing while it was happening.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Tor AFAIK doesn't publish anything by Hurley, so that point also really confuses me as well.

[mormont]

Is it a "stretch" in the wake of that sexual harasser that took forever to get rid of, or that editor who made misogynistic comments about an author? Is it a stretch, considering that someone at Tor (maybe Doherty himself?) thought it was a good idea to have OPEN comments on that public reprimand, turning it into a LYNCHING (allowing Wright to write in that hateful homophobic screed)? The implications are not good. It shows a trend of misogyny in Tor's office.

I don't think either side of the argument is well served by hyperbole. I do think that allowing comments was a big blunder, as it led to some idiots giving uninformed opinions about Ms Gallo's actions, but an all-caps LYNCHING? No. That's just getting carried away.

The Frenkel case: well, I'm not saying that there should not have been a public apology, but a comparison is difficult. The situations are apples and oranges. (For one thing, the Frenkel case is immeasurably more serious than an ill-judged comment on a Facebook page. It could, and belatedly did, cost Frenkel his job: there is no way that this should cost Irene Gallo her job.) I think there are differences with the Fodera case as well, but I know less about that one.

In any case, even if there should have been public apologies about those instances, that does not mean there should not have been one in this case, nor that the difference is solely down to Irene Gallo's gender.

ETA - DR, try here for a quick summary;

https://www.blackgate.com/2015/06/10/internet-explodes-around-irene-gallo/

[Darth Richard II]

Thanks, i shall puruse that when I wake up.

Was Frenkel the guy that had a habit of getting drunk and uh, touching people at con parties?

[AncalagonTheBlack]

Hurley only has work with Angry Robot and nightshade.

She has a non-fiction book from Tor coming out next year as well as a standalone space opera from Saga Press,Simon & Schuster’s new sff imprint.

[Maester Llama]

Yeah, as ATB says, Hurley's essay collection, which has the beautiful title of The Geek Feminist Revolution, is coming out from Tor some time next year.

I am very sure that there is no sexist intent whatsoever in Doherty apologizing publicly for Gallo's actions while dealing with Frenkle and Fodera privately. Very, very sure. That something is not intended in a sexist way, however, does not preclude it playing out in a way that has sexist overtones, and boy howdy this does, and it does so because the way in which it was pitched was incredibly clumsy and uncalculated. The comments were on. The employee was named in the post. The employee. Was named. In the post with open comments. So people could show up and rag. No. No, no, no no no! These are elementary mistakes.

That Beale -- actually you know what? no, I'm goddamn sick of typing his name; from now on, whenever I refer to Theodore Beale I shall write his name as "Lord Voldemort," until I get bored and change it. That Lord Voldemort sat on the post for a month and then launched his "complaint" on Nebula Awards weekend indicates fairly clearly that his aim is outrage farming and sewing chaos rather than any legitimate concern, I think. That does not change what Gallo said, and that one of the things she said was "neo-Nazi." What I think it does change, however, is that Doherty and Tor should have gone into the situation with an eye toward the fact that, while Gallo should perhaps not have said what she said, what was going on here was an attempt to create a clusterfuck, and therefore any response would need to be very carefully calculated not to encourage clusterfuckery. I am not a communications expert, not at all, but I see no indication whatsoever that these nuances were taken into account in any way in Doherty's response.

Lord Voldemort and the people who are complaining want Tor to fire Gallo. Is Tor going to fire Gallo? No. Will Lord Voldemort and the complainants allow themselves to be seen to settle for anything less than her firing? No. So is Tor going to give them what they really want? No. So would a politic tweet reminding everyone that employees' private opinions do not reflect the opinions of the company that contained no names have been sufficient? Yes!

Frenkle was present at trade conventions in his capacity as an editor for Tor Books. So it would be tough for what he does there to be Tor's business to any greater degree than it is. Fodera was speaking about a professional in the field in which he works, with whom he had a working relationship [Kowal has a novel contract with Tor.] I don't think they should have been publicly shamed by their employer either -- beyond the blandly politic announcement that Frenkle had left Tor -- because no employee names in the "we fucked up" press releases! Ever! I do not think the torrents of bullshit to which they were central are directly comparable to this one. But the stark difference in discretion and handling paints, unintentionally, a picture inflected by gender politics when doing so was not necessary or helpful.