Contrarius+ Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 On 5/4/2016 at 3:29 PM, beniowa said: I'll be reading Seveneves sometime in the next few weeks. I won't be reading the Butcher. I used to be a fan of the Dresden Files, but I've soured on it after the last couple of books and I have no interest in his new series. Aeronaut's Windlass is a good book -- it deserves the Hugo nom much more than the Dresden book did. I actually wouldn't have been surprised to see it on the shortlist even without RP intervention. Mind you, I'm not going to vote for it to win -- but I don't think it's an embarrassment to have it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Llama Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 I haven't quite gotten to New Moon yet, so I can't comment on that -- though I wouldn't be surprised if I found it to have been snubbed for awards at least to some degree, because my man brings mean novel. Aurora, though ... Thing is, at least from my perspective, the parts of Aurora that are good are really, really, really good: long stretches of the novel burn with cool ideas and beautiful, scientifically-rich examinations of space and the ship and the extreme difficulties of the whole generation ship idea. And some of the AI stuff is really good too, when the ship's computer is reflecting on how to construct a narrative. It's these ship's computer sections that I suspect bog the book down for people, though, and they manifest themselves in several different ways so as to act as a buzzkill for several different kinds of readers: some people [not me] will find the reflections on the constructed nature of narrative to be mindnumbingly boring, and the book really goes all in with multi-page riffs on this a couple times, while other readers [including me] will find that the narrator's occasional tendency to get caught up in long list-making loops, while evocative at first, gets very old, and/or that the dry textbook-like explanation of the social situation on the ship loses its shine after a while without specific scenes of three-dimensional characters to enliven it. A few of the most central characters are great, but a lot of the others fall into talking head territory pretty badly. Had Aurora been nominated I'd have entirely understood why and I think it's a notable achievement in several ways, but I also totally get why it's been passed over. There are a few other things I could definitely have seen on the list: Jo Walton's The Just City is probably deserving, and James S. A. Corey's Nemesis Games is hot shit, despite its extreme series-installment-ness. Maaaybe Zen Cho's Sorcerer to the Crown [though this is of course on the Locus shortlist; relevant to this: the Locus award shortlist is great! Much better and broader and more exciting than the Hugo, including several things I'd personally not have chosen but nothing I'd consider a "bad" choice. Awesome!] I found long sections of Seveneves to be absolutely spectacular, but it brushes past a couple of the social dynamics of the end of the world pretty lightly [fair enough, in a way, since that's not the story it's telling, but still...], and loses momentum for me for several long stretches. The final section, for instance, though often conceptually wicked cool, engaged me emotionally pretty much not at all, and that's almost three-hundred pages of the book evoking a "meh" response. So I responded to it kind of the way I responded to Aurora, except perhaps even more so. Some of those early-to-mid-book space sequences, though. Some of those are top shelf. The Jemisin, Leckie, and Novik are in a bit of a three-way race for me, as they seem to be for several other people, with Ancillary Mercy trailing for the previously-mentioned reason that it really does depend pretty completely on the earlier books. I'd also be lying if I claimed that Ancillary Justice's previous win didn't weigh a little bit, though it shouldn't necessarily, I know. The other two are very close, with maybe a slight edge for Jemisin's Fifth Season, which didn't take me as much time to warm up to as Uprooted did. I'd be happy if any of these three won, though. I haven't read the Butcher yet and I'm sure it'll be very good fun, but it'd have to be quite the book to outrun these three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 Speaking of the Locus shortlist -- I think the Hugos ought to split out Fantasy and SF novel categories. What say y'all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Llama Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 I definitely agree. I really like that idea. But, then, I also like the best ya novel idea. Anything that moves away from the false "single best" premise. Perhaps others would feel that this would drown out vital [and often-underrecognized] short fiction categories though? I remember this being one of the objections to "best saga" [even though I like the idea of separating sf and fantasy to get more recognition for more cool work, and the idea of best ya, I still don't like best saga -- continues to strike me as unnecessary.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beniowa Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 Maester Llama, you make some points about Aurora. Like you, those parts didn't bother me so I couldn't imagine it would have been any worse than the stuff in 2312, which made it on the Hugo ballot three years ago. I thought Aurora was by far the better book. Oh well. 5 hours ago, Contrarius+ said: Speaking of the Locus shortlist -- I think the Hugos ought to split out Fantasy and SF novel categories. What say y'all? I'd support this as well as it would double the number of books up for consideration. Paring down the field can be hard when there's so many books being published. I still support a Best YA too. I don't think two more novels categories would hurt the short story categories as long as we don't eliminate any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 7 hours ago, Contrarius+ said: I think the Hugos ought to split out Fantasy and SF novel categories. What say y'all? Should they split all the short fiction categories into Fantasy and SF as well? If not, why not? Some form of Best Saga seems like a much more logical split to me. Eg Nemesis Games and Ancillary Mercy have both been mentioned as problematic for Best Novel due to their series-ness in just the last page of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 3 hours ago, felice said: Should they split all the short fiction categories into Fantasy and SF as well? If not, why not? I say not. If nothing else, it would get incredibly unwieldy to have that many categories -- but just one extra category to allow for both sf and f in the novels shouldn't be a burden. As for series, I can see doing that -- but then when would they be eligible? Only when the last book in the series is published? Every year that a book in the series is published? And if the second, then wouldn't that give them an awful lot of chances at winning an award? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 11 minutes ago, Contrarius+ said: I say not. If nothing else, it would get incredibly unwieldy to have that many categories -- but just one extra category to allow for both sf and f in the novels shouldn't be a burden. It might not be a burden, but it seems pretty arbitrary. 11 minutes ago, Contrarius+ said: As for series, I can see doing that -- but then when would they be eligible? Only when the last book in the series is published? Every year that a book in the series is published? And if the second, then wouldn't that give them an awful lot of chances at winning an award? There are a great many possible ways of handling that. Not allowing the same series to appear on the ballot two years running, for example. At the moment there's nothing preventing five volumes of a series released in the same year from taking all five spots on the Best Novel ballot (and repeating it year after year if the writer is sufficiently prolific and popular); a Best Series category would mean fewer chances to win. I do think a series should be eligible as a whole when the final book is published, but some series are open-ended, so that can't be the only way to be eligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 1 minute ago, felice said: It might not be a burden, but it seems pretty arbitrary. Yeah, but life is often a balance between logic and practicality. It doesn't have to be 100% consistent all the way down. As for the series -- they are already eligible in the novel category as the whole series the year the final book is published, so that is taken care of. I don't know what would be a reasonable way to define "series" Hugo eligibility as a separate award, but it's an interesting question to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 7 hours ago, Contrarius+ said: As for the series -- they are already eligible in the novel category as the whole series the year the final book is published, so that is taken care of. Only if none of the previous books have been nominated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 On 7.5.2016 at 4:08 PM, Contrarius+ said: Speaking of the Locus shortlist -- I think the Hugos ought to split out Fantasy and SF novel categories. What say y'all? I say that I had to scrape the barrel re: my reading of works first published that year in order to make the requisite nominations for SF, fantasy and YA on the Locus list. Ideally, you'd need to read at least 10 items in each category above, and that's non-trivial both from time investment and monetary expedenture for people who live in non-anglophone countries and can't get a significant chunk of newly published works from the library sytem. Particularly since there is no guarantee that you'd like what you have to buy... Not to mention that with Locus shortlist, they pre-select what books go in what genre, whereas nominators fill out Hugo ballots themselves, so there is guaranteed to be a massive head-ache concerning which category a book really belongs to, etc. Genre-benders are a thing, after all. Re: underrated works - yes, how could I have forgotten Parker's "Last Witness" - after putting it on all of my own lists, no less? I guess that my bitterness re: his "Savages" is leaking through... It is kinda odd that his novellas have so little buzz. "Library at Mount Char" is at my TBR list, didn't get to it in time and in unexpected, but pleasant surprise my library has it on OverDrive! So, will try it out soon. Anyway, we have been talking about Hugo finalists a lot - in brief: I loved "Ancillary Mercy", "Uprooted" and "The Fifth Season"; was really disappointed with "Seveneves", which I expected to love, but it was way too uneven from every angle there is (including science! i.e. blatantly magical biology) and weak parts are quite turgid and long; thought that "The Aeronaut's Windlass" was Ok - certainly more promising than the first book of highly stereotypical/tropy Butcher's previous epic fantasy series "Codex Alera", but also still has some of his problematic quirks. I was entertained, but likely won't be following the series and didn't think that it deserved a nomination. But what do we think/have heard of _other_ Locus and Nebula novel finalists? I.e., for Locus award: SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL The Water Knife, Paolo Bacigalupi (Borzoi; Orbit UK) Ancillary Mercy, Ann Leckie (Orbit US; Orbit UK) Aurora, Kim Stanley Robinson (Orbit US; Orbit UK) Seveneves, Neal Stephenson (Morrow) A Borrowed Man, Gene Wolfe (Tor) FANTASY NOVEL Karen Memory, Elizabeth Bear (Tor) The House of Shattered Wings, Aliette de Bodard (Roc; Gollancz) Wylding Hall, Elizabeth Hand (PS; Open Road) The Fifth Season, N.K. Jemisin (Orbit US; Orbit UK) Uprooted, Naomi Novik (Del Rey) YOUNG ADULT BOOK Half a War, Joe Abercrombie (Del Rey; Harper Voyager UK) Half the World, Joe Abercrombie (Del Rey) Harrison Squared, Daryl Gregory (Tor) Shadowshaper, Daniel José Older (Levine) The Shepherd’s Crown, Terry Pratchett (Harper; Doubleday UK) FIRST NOVEL Sorcerer to the Crown, Zen Cho (Ace; Macmillan UK) The Grace of Kings, Ken Liu (Saga) Signal to Noise, Silvia Moreno-Garcia (Solaris) The Watchmaker of Filigree Street, Natasha Pulley (Bloomsbury US; Bloomsbury UK) The Sorcerer of the Wildeeps, Kai Ashante Wilson (Tor.com) and Nebula: Novel Ancillary Mercy, Ann Leckie (Orbit US; Orbit UK) Barsk: The Elephants’ Graveyard, Lawrence M. Schoen (Tor) The Fifth Season, N. K. Jemisin (Orbit US; Orbit UK) The Grace of Kings, Ken Liu (Saga) Raising Caine, Charles E. Gannon (Baen) Updraft, Fran Wilde (Tor) Uprooted, Naomi Novik (Del Rey) P.S. When I spoke of 2 pieces by de Bodard on the Locus finalist list which were my top picks in their categories, I meant her novella and short story. Didn't read "The House of Shattered Wings", and I understand that reactions are pretty split on that one. Of the other stuff, I have read Abercrombie's "Shattered Sea" books from Locus YA list (of course), which I liked, but not as much as his previous works and "Updraft" by Fran Wilde (Nebula list), which I hated. Robinson's "Aurora", Bear's "Karen Memory" and Wolfe's "A Borrowed Man" were all on my TBR list, but I didn't get to them in time. P.S.S - can somebody explain to me why Naomi Kritzer's "Cat Pictures Please" is so beloved? I liked it OK, but there were so many better pieces available. Even dealing with sentient AI... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Secritcrush has started reviewing the Hugo nominees! Squeeeee! Spoiler alert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 6 hours ago, Maia said: Not to mention that with Locus shortlist, they pre-select what books go in what genre, whereas nominators fill out Hugo ballots themselves, so there is guaranteed to be a massive head-ache concerning which category a book really belongs to, etc. Genre-benders are a thing, after all. [....] Perhaps the nominations could be in one lump -- nominate regardless of sf or f -- and then the committee separates out the top sf and f vote-getters? Quote But what do we think/have heard of _other_ Locus and Nebula novel finalists? I.e., for Locus award: These are the ones I've read. Here's the short version of my reactions; for the long version, see my reviews on GR under user name Contrarius. Karen Memory -- interesting, but I wasn't especially taken with it. Sorcerer to the Crown -- I didn't like the female MC at all. The Grace of Kings -- I liked this one a lot. In fact, it was on my Hugo nomination list. The Sorcerer of the Wildeeps -- I just listened to this one a couple of days ago. Very intense, beautifully written, maddening ending. Barsk -- I enjoyed this -- it was both sweet and gripping -- but I didn't feel the need to nominate it. Raising Caine -- I haven't actually read this one, but I've read the first in the series. Ehh. No subtlety, logic problems, oddly sexist. Updraft -- Entertaining, but very YA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beniowa Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Has anyone seen this about the Dragon Awards? It was announced last month, but I just saw it in this month's Locus magazine. http://awards.dragoncon.org/2016/04/04/official-press-release/ Apparently, Dragon Con will indeed have their own awards, which, like the Gemmells, anyone can nominate and vote for. You just have to register online . These are the categories: Best science fiction novel Best fantasy novel (including paranormal) Best young adult/middle grade novel Best military science fiction or fantasy novel Best alternate history novel Best apocalyptic novel Best horror novel Best comic book Best graphic novel Best episode in a continuing science fiction or fantasy series, TV or internet Best science fiction or fantasy movie Best science fiction or fantasy PC / console game Best science fiction or fantasy mobile game Best science fiction or fantasy board game Best science fiction or fantasy miniatures / collectable card / role-playing game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 11 hours ago, beniowa said: You just have to register online . And there's the rub. Online voting with just a registration is ridiculously easy to scam, so the awards won't have any real validity. Ballot-box stuffing galore. You need some way to restrict voting -- like paid subscriptions or registrations with unique ID -- to make the voting mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beniowa Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 6 hours ago, Contrarius+ said: And there's the rub. Online voting with just a registration is ridiculously easy to scam, so the awards won't have any real validity. Ballot-box stuffing galore. You need some way to restrict voting -- like paid subscriptions or registrations with unique ID -- to make the voting mean anything. True! And it's hard to say how many people will participate anyway. I'm not sure how many of Dragon Con's attendees care for the book side of things. Way too many variations of the same categories too. I'm guessing they'll change a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Finished Uprooted. I liked it. The initial dynamic between the wizard and young witch is really cute. It's like a reverse of the dynamic between the characters in Howl's Moving Castle. I found this charming. I thought the ending dragged a bit, but I don't really like reading battle scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 5 hours ago, Lily Valley said: Finished Uprooted. I liked it. The initial dynamic between the wizard and young witch is really cute. It's like a reverse of the dynamic between the characters in Howl's Moving Castle. I found this charming. I thought the ending dragged a bit, but I don't really like reading battle scenes. Glad you liked it! It was one of my favorites, though IMHO it got too sappy at the climax and resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 So, turns out EPH isn't sufficient to effectively counteract the Puppies. If only someone could have predicted that a year ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius+ Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 On 5/17/2016 at 7:33 PM, felice said: So, turns out EPH isn't sufficient to effectively counteract the Puppies. If only someone could have predicted that a year ago... That doesn't mean it's worthless. It does help, and the "EPH+" plan helps more. People aren't prescient. They have to wait for actual data in order to make the most efficient plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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