How large is 'show' Westeros (possible book spoilers)

[ummester]

Yes Benjaario, I think that 1 year 1 season is the best approximation of overall time passing that we can get. So, GoTs time is moving faster than book time, overall - in the books only 3 years (or less) have manged to pass in 5 books which equates to approximately 5 seasons that include 4 years passing.

Show time is faster and show Westeros is smaller - trying to make everything slightly less expansive and more immediate, which is exactly what the show is trying to do with the books, overall.

[PatrickStormborn]

Snip

LOL, okay.

First of all, I was actually being generous and flexible with the timeline in my analysis. I only brought up those quotes because the poster I was responding to claimed that each season should roughly be a year, which is absolutely unfounded. As I demonstrated, no more than 2 years could have passed between 1x01 and 3x08. You did not disagree. Considering that the next two episodes take place not long after 3x08 (3x10 takes place immediately following 3x09, and 3x09 follows up on a lot of things that happened in 3x07 and 3x08), assuming that 2 years has passed between 1x01 and 3x10 makes the most sense.

Now, most importantly, I am NOT being more critical of GoT than I would any other TV show that claims to be "high drama"(*). You know, I actually used another TV show as an example just to show that, LOL. Maybe read my posts next time.

GoT has established a timeline, which I've shown through various quotes. Now holding it to this timeline too precisely would be a mistake, yes. But my criticism is that the show gives us a timeline and simultaneously ignores its own precedents when it comes to travel times. Somehow, Cersei managed to send a raven all the way to the Eyrie, and then a rider managed to ride FROM the Eyrie all the way to Winterfell... all in the space of a few scenes. Considering that it took Littlefinger and Sansa 3 episodes to travel from the Vale (not even the Eyrie!) to Winterfell, then yes - it stretches credibility beyond belief. And this would have been prevented by simply having the letter reach Littlefinger in the following episode.

Just regarding this:

So, even being as generous as possible with timings in season 4, I'd conclude that there's no possible way that more than 2 and a half years have passed from 1x01 to 5x03.

I don't think that is true.

If we use Sansa as the yardstick, considering she is one of the few characters that has disclosed age, it is possible that almost 2 years passed between S1E01 and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. We don't know how long Sansa and Tyrion were married before the Purple Wedding - but it could have been 6 months. It could have been 12 months. Sansa could have been over 15 when she fled Kings Landing, in show - we just have no way of telling, because it is that undisclosed time between 2 seasons.

The most time that could have passed between S1E01 and S5E03 is 4 years. It's probably meant to be closer to 3.

I found that disclosing Sansa's age is a big fuck up on behalf of the show - but again, the book did this first. I was so disappointed to read Dany was 13 at the start of the books. Why even include it? Other than some kind of need to be controversial on GRRMs behalf, I see no point. It is better to not disclose character ages, to leave it vague - which GRRM seems to do most of the time, except for when it comes to kids and sex, which makes me think there is a deliberate desire to write something controversial, at the least, and a much worse desire, at the worst.

Well here's the difference between our posts: you're making guesses, and I'm actually referring to the script.

As I said above, no more than 2 years could have passed between 1x01 and 3x08. Based on how rapidly events take place in the following two episodes, it makes sense to assume that 1x01 and 3x10 cover around 2 years, potentially a bit more.

The time passage of season 4 basically depends on how much time we think passed off-screen between seasons. Considering that Dany has only just encountered a crucified child and there's one every mile between Yunkai and Meereen, we should assume that her storyline hasn't jumped too far ahead. But let's be generous and assume that her timeline is different to mainland Westeros in episode 1. Jaime claims he's been "back for weeks" in 4x01, so being generous we should assume that no more than 3 weeks has passed between 3x10 and 4x01. And we know that the Purple Wedding is a fortnight after 4x01 because that's exactly what Olenna tells us.

After this it's harder to determine how much time is passing. Sansa travels from King's Landing to the Vale between 4x03 and 4x05; Joffrey's funeral takes place in 4x03 and Tommen's coronation in 4x05; Cersei claims in 4x05 that Tommen shall marry Margaery "in a fortnight"; Tyrion's trial takes place in 4x06 and Oberyn fights the Mountain in 4x08; in 4x10, Tyrion escapes before he is executed. Meanwhile Stannis travels from Braavos to the Wall between 4x05 and 4x10, Mance Rayder marches on the Wall until 4x09, and Brienne travels from King's Landing to the Vale between 4x04 and 4x10.

Let's assume that the "fortnight" for Tommen and Margaery's wedding is delayed because of Tyrion's trial by combat and Tywin's death. But Tyrion's trial could not have taken too much time; his trial by combat would have delayed things, yes, but I find it really difficult to assume that anything more than a month passed between 4x06 and 4x10. And that's already suspending disbelief as far as I'll allow.

Then season 5 starts with Tywin's funeral, which can't have taken place too long after his death, and 5x03 includes Tommen and Margaery's marriage. Again being generous, perhaps a month has passed in season 5 up to this point.

So what does that leave us with? 2 years for seasons 1-3, 3 months for season 4 (3 weeks before the season begins + 2 weeks for Joffrey's wedding + 1 week for his funeral + 2 weeks until Tommen's coronation + 1 month until Tyrion's escape), and 1 month for season 5. Again, being generous, that leaves us with no more than 2 and a half years from 1x01 to 5x03.

[Daske]

If that was me you are referring to who claimed it was a year. I didn't say it has to be, I said (maybe not clearly) if you are taking the kid actor's ages at face value then you need to suspend disbelief around time flowing on the show. Because (fact) they have aged a year each season and you can plainly see it. If you suspend disbelief at the kid's ages instead then you don't need to do that.

My point was not it is a year between seasons but that unavoidably you already have to suspend disbelief one way or the other over the passage of time in the show regardless of distances/time travelled and so on.

[ummester]

PatrickStormborn.

It doesn't stretch credibility beyond all belief, it's stretches credibility beyond your belief - there is a difference.

The time passage of season 4 basically depends on how much time we think passed off-screen between seasons.

This is the bit you cannot accurately determine, no mater how hard you try - your posts are ultimately conjecture.

Re Dany - I didn't think there was literally supposed to be a crucified child every mile between Yunkai and Meereen - when you think about it logically, if the crucifers came within a mile of Yunkai, Dany would probably have the unsullied kill them. After Dany had her crowd surfing experience at the end of Season 3, I thought it likely that her and her forces spent a lot of time chillin' in Yunkai, regaining their strength and so on.

It is entirely plausible that Dany and co. were chilling for 6 months in Yunkai, before they decided to march on Meereen and, only when they did decide to march, did the Meereenese crucify child slaves every mile outward from their city and towards Dany's approach. So the crucified slaves may have oly spanned every mile from Meereen to Yunkai from the Meereen side.

Jamie saying he's been back for weeks could mean anything. You could suppose not more than 2 months because if it was he would say months. But Jamie does say he has been back for weeks before we see Dany again, so there could be months covered in 401, to establish where all the characters are at.

309 Jamie returns to KL - day 1. Dany crowd surfs - day 2.

401 Jamie has been back for weeks - day 61 at the most (otherwise he'd say months). Dany chillin' with her dragons and checking out her army - could be 5 to 6 months after Jamie getting back to KL. Then we see Sansa threatening to be anorexic - this could be after she has been married to Tyrion for 6 months. Yes, Obyren could have been fucking whores and drinking wine in KL for months, only interacting with Tyrion on 2 occasions that were worthy of being shown to the audience, in that time.

309 - 401 could span 6 months between seasons and scenes - it is only knowledge of it all being one book that stops people thinking it possible for the show.

[PatrickStormborn]

PatrickStormborn.

It doesn't stretch credibility beyond all belief, it's stretches credibility beyond your belief - there is a difference.

This is the bit you cannot accurately determine, no mater how hard you try - your posts are ultimately conjecture.

Re Dany - I didn't think there was literally supposed to be a crucified child every mile between Yunkai and Meereen - when you think about it logically, if the crucifers came within a mile of Yunkai, Dany would probably have the unsullied kill them. After Dany had her crowd surfing experience at the end of Season 3, I thought it likely that her and her forces spent a lot of time chillin' in Yunkai, regaining their strength and so on.

It is entirely plausible that Dany and co. were chilling for 6 months in Yunkai, before they decided to march on Meereen and, only when they did decide to march, did the Meereenese crucify child slaves every mile outward from their city and towards Dany's approach. So the crucified slaves may have oly spanned every mile from Meereen to Yunkai from the Meereen side.

Jamie saying he's been back for weeks could mean anything. You could suppose not more than 2 months because if it was he would say months. But Jamie does say he has been back for weeks before we see Dany again, so there could be months covered in 401, to establish where all the characters are at.

309 Jamie returns to KL - day 1. Dany crowd surfs - day 2.

401 Jamie has been back for weeks - day 61 at the most (otherwise he'd say months). Dany chillin' with her dragons and checking out her army - could be 5 to 6 months after Jamie getting back to KL. Then we see Sansa threatening to be anorexic - this could be after she has been married to Tyrion for 6 months. Yes, Obyren could have been fucking whores and drinking wine in KL for months, only interacting with Tyrion on 2 occasions that were worthy of being shown to the audience, in that time.

309 - 401 could span 6 months between seasons and scenes - it is only knowledge of it all being one book that stops people thinking it possible for the show.

This is absolutely pointless because you have no idea what you're talking about.

There is 163 miles between Yunkai and Meereen, both in the show and in the books. There were 163 crucified slave children, and thus 163 crucified Great Masters. You can debate this all you want, but you're debating actual canon.

Why would Daenerys "chill" in Yunkai?! She promised she would spare the Wise Masters and not sack the city on the condition that they freed their slaves. Hence why she did not start marching through the city... She let the slaves come to her. You're once again contradicting the canon.

4x01 begins with Jaime rejecting Tywin's offer. In Jaime's later scene with Cersei, he claims that he rejected Tywin earlier in that same day. Elsewhere in King's Landing, Olenna claims that Margaery will marry Joffrey in a fortnight. So your analysis is just absolutely ridiculous. At least one of us knows what happened in the show, I guess. :)

Not to mention that more time cannot have passed based on the movement of the wildling armies.

Again: my analysis of the timeline was as flexible and generous as possible. I concluded that 3 months passed from 3x10-4x10, but okay - let's say that Jaime's "weeks" actually meant 7 weeks. How much more does that give us? An extra 4 weeks. So that means at most 4 months have passed between 3x10 and 4x10. And then I also concluded that only a month has passed in season 5 so far. What does that add up to? ... It still comes to under 2 and a half years.

[ummester]

This is absolutely pointless because you have no idea what you're talking about.

There is 163 miles between Yunkai and Meereen, both in the show and in the books. There were 163 crucified slave children, and thus 163 crucified Great Masters. You can debate this all you want, but you're debating actual canon.

Why would Daenerys "chill" in Yunkai?! She promised she would spare the Wise Masters and not sack the city on the condition that they freed their slaves. Hence why she did not start marching through the city... She let the slaves come to her. You're once again contradicting the canon.

4x01 begins with Jaime rejecting Tywin's offer. In Jaime's later scene with Cersei, he claims that he rejected Tywin earlier in that same day. Elsewhere in King's Landing, Olenna claims that Margaery will marry Joffrey in a fortnight. So your analysis is just absolutely ridiculous. At least one of us knows what happened in the show, I guess. :)

Not to mention that more time cannot have passed based on the movement of the wildling armies.

Again: my analysis of the timeline was as flexible and generous as possible. I concluded that 3 months passed from 3x10-4x10, but okay - let's say that Jaime's "weeks" actually meant 7 weeks. How much more does that give us? An extra 4 weeks. So that means at most 4 months have passed between 3x10 and 4x10. And then I also concluded that only a month has passed in season 5 so far. What does that add up to? ... It still comes to under 2 and a half years.

So you are seriously telling me, in book and show cannon, a slave child is crucified only a mile away from Yunkai and Dany does nothing? And that, after Dany takes Yunkai, the wise masters send someone out, with 163 slaves and get them all crucified over the space of 163 miles that lead right to Dany's doorstep, without Dany doing anything? Did she not have a single patrol of Unsullied walk more than a mile away from Yunkai when all these slaves were being hung up?

That is more of a logic gap to me than the time. It is downright stupid.

On the Game of Thrones wiki, not the ASoIaF wiki, it says:

While on the march for Meereen, the last and greatest of the slave-cities, Daenerys' army, now numbering over 10,000 and armed with siege engines, came across a series of 163 crucified slave-children pointing towards the city, one for each mile between them and Meereen. Daenerys was greatly angered by this provocation by the Great Masters.

This makes a lot more sense than exactly 163 miles between cities and a slave at a marker every mile. At a point along the road, an undisclosed distance from Yunkai, the first of 163 slaves (one for every mile of road left) point the way to Meereen.

And where we see Dany at the start of Season 4 is on the road from Yunkai to Meereen - somewhere along the way, not a mile out of Yunkai and there are no slaves crucified anywhere at that stage.

[PatrickStormborn]

So you are seriously telling me, in book and show cannon, a slave child is crucified only a mile away from Yunkai and Dany does nothing? And that, after Dany takes Yunkai, the wise masters send someone out, with 163 slaves and get them all crucified over the space of 163 miles that lead right to Dany's doorstep, without Dany doing anything? Did she not have a single patrol of Unsullied walk more than a mile away from Yunkai when all these slaves were being hung up?

That is more of a logic gap to me than the time. It is downright stupid.

On the Game of Thrones wiki, not the ASoIaF wiki, it says:

While on the march for Meereen, the last and greatest of the slave-cities, Daenerys' army, now numbering over 10,000 and armed with siege engines, came across a series of 163 crucified slave-children pointing towards the city, one for each mile between them and Meereen. Daenerys was greatly angered by this provocation by the Great Masters.

This makes a lot more sense than exactly 163 miles between cities and a slave at a marker every mile. At a point along the road, an undisclosed distance from Yunkai, the first of 163 slaves (one for every mile of road left) point the way to Meereen.

And where we see Dany at the start of Season 4 is on the road from Yunkai to Meereen - somewhere along the way, not a mile out of Yunkai and there are no slaves crucified anywhere at that stage.

Well here's the text:

The Great Masters of Meereen had withdrawn before Dany's advance, harvesting all they could and burning what they could not harvest. Scorched fields and poisoned wells had greeted her at every hand. Worst of all, they had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai ...

I don't know why you're assuming the Great Masters waited until Dany left Yunkai before they did anything? Given how long it would have taken Dany to march with her Unsullied on foot from Astapor to Yunkai (a far larger distance than Yunkai to Meereen), and then given that she spent a few days outside Yunkai, it makes sense that they've been forewarned of her arrival and have responded swiftly, using scorched earth tactics. Keep in mind that Dany has roughly 10,000 Unsullied and even more freed slaves from Yunkai and Astapor who can only travel as fast as they can walk. It should not be a surprise to anyone that a few quick riders sent by the Great Masters can act before she even knows they've done anything.

Even if we assume that Dany has already travelled more than one mile between 3x10 and 4x01, and the Meereenese have only crucified children from some arbitrary point between Yunkai and Meereen (which doesn't make sense, but ok)... I still fail to see how that adds much more time. I've already given you 7 weeks between 3x10 and 4x01 based on Jaime's "weeks", and there's no way that Dany has waited more than 7 weeks to reach 163 miles away from Meereen.

So, again: 2 and a half years at the most.

[ummester]

Well here's the text:

I don't know why you're assuming the Great Masters waited until Dany left Yunkai before they did anything? Given how long it would have taken Dany to march with her Unsullied on foot from Astapor to Yunkai (a far larger distance than Yunkai to Meereen), and then given that she spent a few days outside Yunkai, it makes sense that they've been forewarned of her arrival and have responded swiftly, using scorched earth tactics. Keep in mind that Dany has roughly 10,000 Unsullied and even more freed slaves from Yunkai and Astapor who can only travel as fast as they can walk. It should not be a surprise to anyone that a few quick riders sent by the Great Masters can act before she even knows they've done anything.

Even if we assume that Dany has already travelled more than one mile between 3x10 and 4x01, and the Meereenese have only crucified children from some arbitrary point between Yunkai and Meereen (which doesn't make sense, but ok)... I still fail to see how that adds much more time. I've already given you 7 weeks between 3x10 and 4x01 based on Jaime's "weeks", and there's no way that Dany has waited more than 7 weeks to reach 163 miles away from Meereen.

So, again: 2 and a half years at the most.

I'm assuming the Wise Masters waited until Dany had sacked Yunkai before they did anything, not that she had left, as their crucifixions were a response to that. So the slaves weren't hung up at least until after Daya was in Yunkai, which would mean she would have a pretty good idea if one was hung up just a mile away from Yunkai.

Where is the text that shows the distance between Yunkai and Meereen is 163 miles?

The text you have provided shows there was a child nailed at every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai - it does not clarify that the 'coast road' connects all the way from Yunkai to Meereen.

If there was a slave crucified close to Yunkai, Dany would have seen it in episode 401, when she was at the start of her travels from Yunkai to Meereen.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm assuming the Wise Masters waited until Dany had sacked Yunkai before they did anything, not that she had left, as their crucifixions were a response to that. So the slaves weren't hung up at least until after Daya was in Yunkai, which would mean she would have a pretty good idea if one was hung up just a mile away from Yunkai.

Where is the text that shows the distance between Yunkai and Meereen is 163 miles?

The text you have provided shows there was a child nailed at every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai - it does not clarify that the 'coast road' connects all the way from Yunkai to Meereen.

If there was a slave crucified close to Yunkai, Dany would have seen it in episode 401, when she was at the start of her travels from Yunkai to Meereen.

I think I'll summarise this in a few bullet points:

• Dany never sacked Yunkai. The Wise Masters opened the gates and freed the slaves on the condition that she would not spare the city. (This, of course, was a huge mistake, as it makes her vulnerable on the march to Meereen with tens of thousands of freed slaves to feed and very little food.)

You're assuming. That says it all. The text tells us that Dany was met with scorched earth, poisoned wells and crucified slave children along the 163 mile coast road from Yunkai to Meereen. Given that Yunkai had time to hire sellswords between Daenerys leaving Astapor and arriving at Yunkai, it makes sense that the Great Masters of Meereen had even more time to act against her.

Okay... I don't really know what you're asking? My interpretation is that the coast road goes from Yunkai to Meereen. This is supported by the official Lands of Ice and Fire maps (see here - it doesn't have the detail that my physical copies have, however; also note the huge distance between Astapor and Yunkai that allowed Yunkai and Meereen to act against Daenerys).

Dany saw the slave child crucified in her second scene in 4x01. In the first scene they had not yet begun the march, by the looks of things.

[Mr Hodor]

From all i read on this thread.

1.Timelines are a mess.

2. Distance is flexible.

3. No-one cares about the distances.