The Northmen are OverGreedy Landowners.(?) IB + N^ alliance

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Just listening to AFFC chapter 12 The Kraken's Daughter audiobook whilst I mowed the lawn on this nice May Day & thinking:

Asha & the Harlaw's et cetera all really do have the political & moral case for the negotiation of LAND concessions from the north.

A mostly vacant humongous landmass next to a seagoing peoples suppressed on too small islands just off coast is a recipe for strife.

I live in the US & think about this huge country with all this "owned" yet unoccupied land + homelessness &think- what wasted potential.

The intelligentsia / progressive Ironborn in Asha's coalition would gain domain of Ironman's Bay pretty much; Sea Dragon Point, Stony Shore, Cape Kraken--these all should belong to the Ironborn anyways (Bear Island & Shield Islands / The Arbor as subsidiaries?). The IB major grievance right now & reason for their "unruly" behavior is sanctions & lack of LAND. this is the best path for the Iron Islands plot to finish the books. (not genocide? LOL) :frown5:

An Ironborn + Northmen alliance really is in the best interest of all involved, & certainly so if Westeros goes back to being 7seven separate kingdoms. Get Theon on board as the ultimate intermediary & this could sow a generation+ of stability in the region.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I agree that an alliance between the North and Iron Isles makes sense but I don't think its reasonable to expect the more powerful of the 2 kingdoms to just hand over territory to the weaker of the 2. Setting up a trade deal of wood for people makes more sense to me. Iron Islands sends their excess mouths to the North and the North sends the Iron Isles wood. They could also trade wood for steel tools in the summer and wood for food in the winter. If the Ironborn got a good trade deal for cheap wood they could probably sell ships at Lannisport and Oldtown as well.

[The Wolves]

The land that you are talking about in the North is literally useless to the Ironborn, there is nothing there, and since there is nothing there the Ironborn will try to ravage the North.

The Ironborn's alliances and progress depends on their leader. So say the Ironborn makes an alliances with the current North who is to say that years later a Greyjoy gets it into his head that they should be paying the iron price for wood and than attacks the North?

Honestly the Ironborn is too unpredictable, violent, and stupid the North owes them nothing.

[Lady Beefheart]

"We do not sow".

[The Frosted King]

Sounds like stripped down manifestation destiny, and as a person of color, I say fuck that.

Asha and the Harlaws should've went begging to Robb before they idioticly invaded the largest land mass on the cusp of winter.

And only if the people there pledged fealty to Winterfell and gave hostages in good faith.

[the storm king returns]

The land that you are talking about in the North is literally useless to the Ironborn, there is nothing there, and since there is nothing there the Ironborn will try to ravage the North.

The Ironborn's alliances and progress depends on their leader. So say the Ironborn makes an alliances with the current North who is to say that years later a Greyjoy gets it into his head that they should be paying the iron price for wood and than attacks the North?

Honestly the Ironborn is too unpredictable, violent, and stupid the North owes them nothing.

THIS is the reality of the situation.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The Arbor? That's absurd. The culture is too different.

Perhaps negotiate selling them wood, or just Cape Kraken. The people of Cape Kraken hace the blood anyway.

[HannibalStark]

Just listening to AFFC chapter 12 The Kraken's Daughter audiobook whilst I mowed the lawn on this nice May Day & thinking:

Asha & the Harlaw's et cetera all really do have the political & moral case for the negotiation of LAND concessions from the north.

A mostly vacant humongous landmass next to a seagoing peoples suppressed on too small islands just off coast is a recipe for strife.

I live in the US & think about this huge country with all this "owned" yet unoccupied land + homelessness &think- what wasted potential.

The intelligentsia / progressive Ironborn in Asha's coalition would gain domain of Ironman's Bay pretty much; Sea Dragon Point, Stony Shore, Cape Kraken--these all should belong to the Ironborn anyways (Bear Island & Shield Islands / The Arbor as subsidiaries?). The IB major grievance right now & reason for their "unruly" behavior is sanctions & lack of LAND. this is the best path for the Iron Islands plot to finish the books. (not genocide? LOL) :frown5:

An Ironborn + Northmen alliance really is in the best interest of all involved, & certainly so if Westeros goes back to being 7seven separate kingdoms. Get Theon on board as the ultimate intermediary & this could sow a generation+ of stability in the region.

the fact that their words are something about not sowing come to mind

[EastTymor]

It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation

To call upon a neighbour and to say:--

"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,

Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,

And the people who ask it explain

That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld

And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,

To puff and look important and to say:--

"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.

We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;

But we've proved it again and again,

That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld

You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,

For fear they should succumb and go astray;

So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,

You will find it better policy to say:--

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,

Nor matter how trifling the cost;

For the end of that game is oppression and shame,

And the nation that plays it is lost!"

-The Dane-Geld by Rudyard Kipling, emphasis mine, substitute "Ironmen" and "Iron price" as necessary

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

the arbor is cool and all & imma let you finish but the ironborn are the boss of the sunset sea of all times!. arbor can be the underboss

Why are the northrmen stingy about land they "own" but literally have nothing happening on? As the Free Folk say, 'a man has a right to what he can hold.' If this is unoccupied land who says it can't be claimed by land hungry people looking to make something. That's degenerative.

*perhaps I'm nostalgic for the american frontier land rush when men of true grit & application were welcome to courageously claim and farm and build on unused land (though the native americans didnt comprehend even the concept of land ownership)

[The Dames do Moan]

*perhaps I'm nostalgic for the american frontier land rush when men of true grit & application were welcome to courageously claim and farm and build on unused land (though the native americans didnt comprehend even the concept of land ownership)

You mean the unused land that we got by whipping out the people that were using it? I agree with your original point but the example above maybe could have been better.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Nah, the ironborn reave and rape and pillage because it's so strongly ingrained in their culture. Giving them some useless Northern land isn't going to solve that problem. And how is it rightfully Ironborn land? Because it happened to be owned by a Driftwood King centuries (if not millennia) ago?

[Pecan]

The current situation of the Ironborn is a bit unrealistic. A seagoing people, roughly analogous to the Vikings, we should see evidence of their influence all around Westeros and Essos, and especially on the northwest coast of Westeros. Frankly, there should be Ironborn settlements up and down the northwest coast - Cape Kraken, The Rills, The Stony Shore, etc. It's just something you would expect to see happen over hundreds and hundreds of years.

[EastTymor]

The current situation of the Ironborn is a bit unrealistic. A seagoing people, roughly analogous to the Vikings, we should see evidence of their influence all around Westeros and Essos, and especially on the northwest coast of Westeros. Frankly, there should be Ironborn settlements up and down the northwest coast - Cape Kraken, The Rills, The Stony Shore, etc. It's just something you would expect to see happen over hundreds and hundreds of years.

Unless they were driven out or exterminated by the Northmen.

[Pecan]

Unless they were driven out or exterminated by the Northmen.

Then there would be evidence of that as well.

[Veltigar]

The current situation of the Ironborn is a bit unrealistic. A seagoing people, roughly analogous to the Vikings, we should see evidence of their influence all around Westeros and Essos, and especially on the northwest coast of Westeros. Frankly, there should be Ironborn settlements up and down the northwest coast - Cape Kraken, The Rills, The Stony Shore, etc. It's just something you would expect to see happen over hundreds and hundreds of years.

Well there has been a lot of intermarrying going on over the years. I forgot which region was specifically mentioned (I think Cape Kraken), but their blood is as much Ironborn as it is Northern. There's also quite a bit of land that has changed hands between Ironborn and Northmen over the years.

I think we just get to see little of this in the books because the North's western coasts have basically fallen into disrepair. The foundation of White Harbour and the creation of a safe southeastern part of the North (instead of a place plagued by pirates, slavers, Valemen and what have you) has really upset the Northern status-quo imo, with huge parts of the population moving to White Harbour and the surrounding area and leaving the unsafe and economically less prosperous Western shores.

[EastTymor]

Then there would be evidence of that as well.

Well yeah. But we don't have a POV of any Stony Shore archeologists, so I'm not sure why you would expect to have read about Ironborn settlements that were destroyed hundreds of years ago, which is the most recent that can be expected given the Targaryen-imposed quiescence of the Ironborn for the last three centuries.

[The Wolves]

Then there would be evidence of that as well.

If says in the world book how the Kings of Winter were always driving the Ironborn from their coast.

[Howling Mad]

The sooner the ironborn meet the drowned god for good the better.

[the storm king returns]

Could you imagine telling the flints of flints finger hey were taking your lands and giving them to the IB, I know your castle sits right next to cape Kraken but don't worry your lands and wifes "should" be fine good luck.