Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D: To Kill a Mockingbird

[The BlackBear]

1 hour ago, protar said:

There's a risk of her being a Mary Sue but I like Skye. 

You have no idea. (Massively improves later though.)

[Martini Sigil]

As much as I'd hate to lose Mockingbird to a spinoff.... I'm thinking that the show could use some other tethers to the source comic books.... like Clay Quartermain, or John Walker (who could/should be re-invented for the shared universe) or even Paladin.... It would make the "agent" roster more believable as far as being able to accomplish anything.... because --with hunter and Morse gone-- after Daisy & May, they get really weak

[protar]

Episode 6 was pretty intense. The one where Simmons gets infected with the alien virus. Obviously she wasn't going to die, but still pretty tense, and finally starting to see some differentiation between Fitz and Simmons. And episode 7 is another Fitz centric episode apparently! I relate to Fitz on a spiritual level. 

So far Melinda is the only member of the team that I've to really get to know. She just pops up occasionally and kills some bad guys. The show is trying to create mystique around her - what's her past, why was she initially against combat - , but actually they're just not giving her anything to do and the scenes she's in she shows pretty much no emotion so...she's the worst character so far. 

I hope you guys don't mind me just rambling about episodes you've all seen years ago. Hopefully a new perspective is interesting. 

[3CityApache]

21 minutes ago, protar said:

I hope you guys don't mind me just rambling about episodes you've all seen years ago. Hopefully a new perspective is interesting. 

No, it is kinda interesting, with all the knowledge we have about the characters you mention. Quite a few characters you haven't even met yet too. Waiting for your reaction to the first big twist.

[protar]

3 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

No, it is kinda interesting, with all the knowledge we have about the characters you mention. Quite a few characters you haven't even met yet too. Waiting for your reaction to the first big twist.

I already know a lot of the twists unfortunately. For quite a while I'd only seen a few snippets of the Well and honestly it seemed so cheesy that I assumed I'd never get round to watching the whole show. So I just vaguely followed the show's developments from outside. Kind of regretting it now, but on the episode to episode level at least I have no idea what is going on. So I've been spoiled on:

• Ward being a Hydra spy.
• Project TAHITI
• Skye being Inhuman
• Victoria Hand dies.
• There's a character called Triplett? And they die? I'm not sure on this one so don't confirm it.
• Fitz gets brain damage.
• Simmons somehow ends up on another planet.
• Raina turns into a porcupine.

But I've just got to frame my experience and excitement on figuring out how all that is going to happen. I mean I've got what? 50 more episodes to watch. Those spoilers don't exactly all fit together in one neat narrative so looking forward to the journey.

As an aside, what do people reckon the chances are of a season 4? Season 3 is not over yet correct? But a quick wikipedia tells me ratings are rising but I don't know. I've always got the impression that the show has always been on dodgy ground but maybe that's wrong.

[Bastard of Boston]

I don't mind the reviews -- I also find them interesting, given it's been awhile since I've seen those episodes. I never thought the show was as bad as people claimed, even in the "dark days" of season one. It wasn't overtly bad, just a little bland. The show isn't in any danger of being cancelled at all. Another season is a sure-thing at this point, though no announcement has been made.

[protar]

I've been binge watching a lot today. I saw the Well in full now. It wasn't an amazing episode, but it was less naff then I remembered. I think the problem is that my impression of the show would be that it would be more part of the film's storylines. The Well is supposed to be a Thor 2 tie in, but it doesn't really tie in at all. It's a complete coincidence that they face an asgardian threat just after cleaning up after Thor. I do wish they would bring in more minor comic characters.

The last few episodes where pretty great with a few twists I didn't see coming like Micheal Peterson betraying SHIELD (I'm interested in where his character is going because I genuinely don't know), Project TAHITI is a lot more disturbing to learn about first hand, and Skye getting shot. That was a pretty good one because I thought I'd spoiled myself reading the netflix episode summaries. "Oh Coulson is on a quest to save Skye, she must get kidnapped." But nope, she's shot and on the verge of death. Think I'll let the cliffhanger stew until tomorrow.

[RumHam]

15 minutes ago, protar said:

 I think the problem is that my impression of the show would be that it would be more part of the film's storylines. The Well is supposed to be a Thor 2 tie in, but it doesn't really tie in at all. It's a complete coincidence that they face an asgardian threat just after cleaning up after Thor. I do wish they would bring in more minor comic characters.

This is one of the main complaints, yeah. Only Winter Soldier gets a real tie in (and that was pretty much by necessity.) But really all the other tie ins are one sided. The show reacts to the latest movie, but not in a way that has any lasting impact on the show's current story arc. Whedon and other people involved have spoken pretty candidly about how it may as well be set in a slightly alternate universe where Coulson is alive. 

As for including more minor comic book characters, it gets better in that department. 

[protar]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

This is one of the main complaints, yeah. Only Winter Soldier gets a real tie in (and that was pretty much by necessity.) But really all the other tie ins are one sided. The show reacts to the latest movie, but not in a way that has any lasting impact on the show's current story arc. Whedon and other people involved have spoken pretty candidly about how it may as well be set in a slightly alternate universe where Coulson is alive. 

As for including more minor comic book characters, it gets better in that department. 

I will say that it does feel more a part of the MCU than the netflix shows do so far (although Jessica Jones improved in that aspect over Daredevil) . But this goes back to a complaint I had with Age of Ultron - they had a perfect opportunity to bring Coulson back into the movies, by having him show up at the Barton farm instead of, or alongside, Fury. And then Coulson and his team could have piloted the Helicarrier. And likewise they could have done a full movie tie in in the show, which I'm assuming doesn't happen. It seems like Joss disavowed the show and honestly kind of sabotaged any chance at a proper tie in there. I only hope that the interconnectivity between the different mediums improves in the future. I have to assume that Civil War will factor heavily into season 4. And I'd love to see a tie in with the Netflix series' which may be more logistically manageable.

[Bastard of Boston]

Joss has said he never wanted to include Coulson in the films, and that he wanted the films to go on as if he was still dead. The irony being that Joss is the reason he's back...Joss Whedon produced this show when it first began. I always thought it was shitty for him to make his comments, pretty much casting the show aside, IMO. He's since cleaned up his comments, indicating he is happy the show exists -- and not just because his brother is showrunner. But still. Ultimately, he felt like bringing Coulson back in the films would be a detour he didn't want to take because it cheapens the effect his death had in the first movie, and because he felt as if Coulson reappearing would require too much explanation to include in the films.

With Marvel Studios breaking away from Marvel, I expect that all of Marvel's TV properties will exist on an island...separate, but the same. The films will never acknowledge them, and the shows will continue to try and make vague connections. I don't really mind it. It is what it is. I actually hope that -- with Marvel Comics having no more say in the films -- they'll start to push the envelope more with their shows. In the past, Marvel didn't use its "big" characters -- regardless of whether they would ever appear in a movie -- because Marvel wanted to keep them in the toy box, not to be wasted. Now that they've been booted from film production, maybe it'll mean they'll be less likely avoid using other characters. It's pretty ridiculous that, with 2.5 seasons in the can, the only "legit" Marvel heroes this show has introduced has been Mockingbird and Quake...and Quake was retconned in.

At least give us the New Warriors, Marvel. They'll clearly never get a film any time soon.

[protar]

But you can't have your cake and eat it too. If Coulson's revival cheapens his death in the Avengers, well Coulson's survival is technically canon to the films and he's already cheapened the death. 

Now what I am fine with is the TV shows never having major impacts on the movies. I know that not all of the viewers can be expected to watch Shield or the Netflix shows to have an understanding of one of the blockbusters. Whereas it is much more likely that mostly everyone watching the shows has seen the movies. That said, it worries me that the TV shows might be getting more distant from the movies. They're barely connected in the first place. I'd like more interconnectivity on the TV/Netflix side, and again - maybe connecting SHIELD with the Netflix shows would be more feasible? I don't know of the logistics there.

Of course this is kind of a problem with the films as well. What's Iron Man doing during Winter Soldier? What's Hulk doing during Thor 2 etc. etc.

[Jon AS]

19 minutes ago, protar said:

But you can't have your cake and eat it too. If Coulson's revival cheapens his death in the Avengers, well Coulson's survival is technically canon to the films and he's already cheapened the death.

I think if he could do it again, Whedon wouldn't bring Coulson back. The problem he had with bringing it up in the film, as I understood it, is that it would be a lot of effort for no tangible benefit to the movie, and very little benefit to the show.

I personally don't think the character adds anything special to the show. You could replace him with any random SHIELD field leader and the show would stay the same.

23 minutes ago, protar said:

Now what I am fine with is the TV shows never having major impacts on the movies.

The issue here is that the show likes to pretend it's really important to the MCU, but since it's obviously never going to have much of an impact (I'm kind of interested to see if they'll get so much as a nod in the Inumans film), any attempts to appear relevant come across as kind of pathetic.

26 minutes ago, protar said:

Of course this is kind of a problem with the films as well. What's Iron Man doing during Winter Soldier? What's Hulk doing during Thor 2 etc. etc.

Well, we know Tony was at Stark Tower being targeted for assassination during the climax of Winter Soldier. And Bruce Banner was presumably not in London during the events of Thor 2.;)

[protar]

3 hours ago, Jon AS said:

I think if he could do it again, Whedon wouldn't bring Coulson back. The problem he had with bringing it up in the film, as I understood it, is that it would be a lot of effort for no tangible benefit to the movie, and very little benefit to the show.

But it really wouldn't be that much effort. Just slot Coulson in instead of Fury in Age of Ultron, have Coulson's team manning the stations in the Hellicarier. And likewise that would allow the show to have a very meaty tie in with AoU. You just need a couple of lines of "I thought you were dead?" "For about 8 seconds...Fury used my near death experience to motivate you."

I personally don't think the character adds anything special to the show. You could replace him with any random SHIELD field leader and the show would stay the same.

Not without changing much of the myth arc of season 1. The Project TAHITI stuff is a major part of the show so far. He's a little bland I'll admit though and now that that stuff is seemingly over for the most part I'm wondering where he has to head next. 

The issue here is that the show likes to pretend it's really important to the MCU, but since it's obviously never going to have much of an impact (I'm kind of interested to see if they'll get so much as a nod in the Inumans film), any attempts to appear relevant come across as kind of pathetic.

I don't think the show is trying to pretend it's really important to the MCU. For the most part it's just monsters of the week with little attempt to tie directly into the films and otherwise it is quite honest about being the behind the scenes stuff. I don't mind that for the most part I just wish that the actual tie ins where meatier. I just watched the Lorelei episode and that I think is how you do a tie in right. It's directly linked to the events of the film (Loki causing havoc in asgard allows Lorelei to escape captivity) and it involves minor characters from the films and comics. If we had more episodes like that...

Well, we know Tony was at Stark Tower being targeted for assassination during the climax of Winter Soldier. And Bruce Banner was presumably not in London during the events of Thor 2.;)

Well okay, but is Tony just sitting about doing nothing? The connectivity issue goes beyond just Agents of Shield.

[protar]

Oh and by the way I've met Garret and Triplette. Garret is very compelling, I'm aware that he's HYDRA, so I think he'll make a great villain. Triplett is a little bland so far.

[Jon AS]

1 hour ago, protar said:

But it really wouldn't be that much effort. Just slot Coulson in instead of Fury in Age of Ultron, have Coulson's team manning the stations in the Hellicarier. And likewise that would allow the show to have a very meaty tie in with AoU. You just need a couple of lines of "I thought you were dead?" "For about 8 seconds...Fury used my near death experience to motivate you."

I'd say that would be the kind of cheapness that Whedon wanted to avoid. Coulson's death in the first Avengers movie was a big enough deal that it does require more than one line to explain.

Though admittedly virtually anything would have been a better tie-in than what the show actually did, so at least from the TV viewer's perspective your idea would be an improvement.

1 hour ago, protar said:

Not without changing much of the myth arc of season 1. The Project TAHITI stuff is a major part of the show so far. He's a little bland I'll admit though and now that that stuff is seemingly over for the most part I'm wondering where he has to head next. 

There's not much of a myth arc, just regular mentions of TAHITI. The bits that are carried over (btw, Coulson and friends rather casually murdering a few SHIELD guards who were just doing their job is not one of those things...) do not require Coulson to be involved at all.

1 hour ago, protar said:

I don't think the show is trying to pretend it's really important to the MCU. For the most part it's just monsters of the week with little attempt to tie directly into the films and otherwise it is quite honest about being the behind the scenes stuff. I don't mind that for the most part I just wish that the actual tie ins where meatier. I just watched the Lorelei episode and that I think is how you do a tie in right. It's directly linked to the events of the film (Loki causing havoc in asgard allows Lorelei to escape captivity) and it involves minor characters from the films and comics. If we had more episodes like that...

The pretense comes later. In season one the show seemed to mostly try to be inoffensively bland.

I thought the Lorelei episode was pretty bad. Apart from bullshit handwaving why her mind control only works on men, once it's established that that's how it works SHIELD still insists on sending teams of easily controlled male agents...

1 hour ago, protar said:

Well okay, but is Tony just sitting about doing nothing? The connectivity issue goes beyond just Agents of Shield.

Well, yeah, it makes no sense that Steve isn't trying to get in touch with Tony in that film. I was just answering the question in the most literal way possible.

[protar]

Well if they wanted to tie in The Kree without Coulson, which I assume is the main takeaway from the TAHITI plot line, the structure of season 1 would have had to be very different. So this is all just talking about could have beens. I agree that they could have done the show without Coulson, but he is a useful connective tissue.

About the Lorelei episode - I wasn't necessarily commenting on the quality of the episode. It was alright. But the nature of the tie-in, bringing in actual characters from the movies, in relation to the events of the movies - that's what I want to see more of. And if season 2 and 3 brings in more of that I appreciate those efforts.

Anyway, I watched Turn Turn Turn and it was probably the best episode so far. Even being spoiled on Garret and Ward being HYDRA agents, the setup left me confused, not knowing if Hand or even May was with HYDRA. I've got to say I would have failed Hand's test (offering people to join HYDRA and then shooting them if they said yes), because I would have surrendered to HYDRA and infiltrated them. 

So now my big question is - how sincere have Ward's actions been? I know sleeper agents are a thing in real life, and it is feasible that he's been completely lying about his friendship with the others this whole time. But narratively that poses a problem. Because the whole reason you spend time with characters is to get to know them. If there has been no sincerity to Ward's actions throughout the whole season, that's a bit of a narrative cheat imo. It wipes the slate clean for the character in a way I think is a bit cheap. So interested to see what direction that goes in. Fingers crossed for some conflicted loyalties.

[Jon AS]

34 minutes ago, protar said:

Well if they wanted to tie in The Kree without Coulson, which I assume is the main takeaway from the TAHITI plot line, the structure of season 1 would have had to be very different. So this is all just talking about could have beens. I agree that they could have done the show without Coulson, but he is a useful connective tissue.

All they needed was for Hydra to be looking into some top secret SHIELD project that they couldn't access, which was exactly what they already did anyway. Coulson saying "It's a magical place" every episode doesn't really add anything to the storyline.

35 minutes ago, protar said:

So now my big question is - how sincere have Ward's actions been?

I don't believe Ward was meant to be a sleeper agent from the start, so he was mostly written with the intention of all his actions being sincere. This has obviously gotten retconned since.

[protar]

5 minutes ago, Jon AS said:

All they needed was for Hydra to be looking into some top secret SHIELD project that they couldn't access, which was exactly what they already did anyway. Coulson saying "It's a magical place" every episode doesn't really add anything to the storyline.

Well you kind of lose the personal aspect in that case. I don't think it would have had nearly the same impact without being directly connected to one of the characters. It's not just about ticking off the plot points, it's about the show having "heart" as well. 

I don't believe Ward was meant to be a sleeper agent from the start, so he was mostly written with the intention of all his actions being sincere. This has obviously gotten retconned since.

I agree. So far as I'm aware Turn Turn Turn was a very deliberate retool of the show in response to poor ratings. They changed a lot. But within the actual canon of the show as it is now - was any of it real? I'm not so much feeling betrayed by Ward as I am by the writers. It doesn't take much skill to write a character one way and then just flip a switch and have them act entirely different. Some of that was unavoidable because like you said, they changed course. But in the upcoming episodes, I need to see how they're making that change feel natural. I need to see at least some inner conflict within Ward.

[Jon AS]

8 minutes ago, protar said:

But within the actual canon of the show as it is now - was any of it real?

Well, if you really want to know...

Short answer: no. Ward is a psychopath with an impressive ability to delude himself, but none of his attempts to shift blame for his actions on other people actually stick.

[protar]

I don't want to know. So far he's clearly unhappy about Skye getting shot, and Raina probed him a bit about whether he cared about any of them. So I guess that's enough sincerity for now. I don't want him to be a complete goody two shoes. Evil Ward could be fun once I get used to him. Still though...the evil smirking, it's a bit much.