AFFC Reread Project - The Ironborn

[Geoff]

The ghost of high heart had a vision of a man with no face on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder was a drowned crow. The man with no face is a Faceless Man, the drowned crow is Euron who hired him and the bridge is the bridge where Balon died.

Some have speculated that Urri protected Aeron from Euron.

Ahh! Thanks much. I re-read the Arya Chapter on page 489 looking for this, but completely forgot that the Ghost of High Heart appeared in an earlier Arya chapter. The later chapter was very interesting for her prophesy about Sansa "slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow", but now I'm getting off topic. That series re-read is looking more and more necessary if I'm going to keep up with the group here.

[Ghost Stark]

Can someone clear this up for me... Victarion is the brother of Euron and wants to steal Dany for himself because Euron fucked his wife? Is that correct?

[Happy Ent]

Can someone clear this up for me... Victarion is the brother of Euron and wants to steal Dany for himself because Euron fucked his wife? Is that correct?

We don't know about him wanting to steal Dany for himself. That's "informed speculation." The rest is correct.

[Happy Ent]

Timeline for Asha chapter. Damphair called for the Kingsmoot on November 1 or November 2, to assemble "when the moon has drowned and come again". Assuming a young moon on Nov 2, it will "drown" some three weeks later and "come again" (full moon) after another two weeks. That places the Kingsmoot in early to mid-Decemeber (I have set December 10 for concreteness).

This Asha chapter is sometime in November 299, I think.

[Geoff]

The Ironborn are the least interesting of the peoples of Westeros for me so far. I like the character of Asha, but she didn't interest me as much in this book as in earlier ones. I hold out hope that Euron will be fascinating as we get to know what he is about, this primarily due to his travels in the East and the cool toys and people he brought back with him.

These Ironborn chapters felt very much like set-up chapters for further development in following books. I think the Reader could be used to fill in some of the history of this world, as could the books brought back by Sam, but so far there has been only a little along those lines. I'm a real sucker for that kinid of thing. The Scrapbook was my favorite part of the Shining.

I made note of the "history is a wheel" reference, but then I saw that Ran has done a great job of creating a references thread elsewhere. Martin has packed this book with lots of fun nods to other works.

Geoff

[Cold Steel Reyne]

In archmeaster Marwin's Book of Lost Books he mentions discovering three pages of the writing Signs and Portents by a Targyren maiden before the Doom of Valeria.Mayhaps this is the book that contained the prophacy of TPTWP.If there was a more complete copy anywhere it would likely have been in the library at the Red Keep. Its information may also have been the reason for the Targs escaping the Doom in the first place.

[A wilding]

The Iron Isles leave me somewhat perplexed. On the one hand they appear to have an entirely despicable and parasitical culture, without even the excuse of the RL Vikings of being explorers and settlers as well as raiders. On the other hand we keep being presented with characters that don't fit with this stereotype. In the Aeron chapter we had the Goodbrothers, miners living away from the sea, and in this chapter we have Rodrik and Asha. I find it difficult to imagine Rodrik paying the iron price even for a book.

Presumably the idea is that they are a culture in flux, slowly evolving into a more civilised society. Their use of Maesters and even the odd Septon would appear to symbolise this change, while Balon and his brothers are throwbacks to an earlier period. This makes Asha something of a prodigy; a reaver as capable as any man, and at the same time one who sees the futility of reaving and wants to change things.

This chapter tells us that Euron had been away for three years before his return. Somehow I had had the impression that it was longer. For example the AGoT appendix calls him an "outlaw", implying he had already been banished by Balon before the start of AGoT. Three years ago would still be possible though.

(Incidentally on reading this chapter Mrs Wilding said that Rodrik was me exactly. Though I would protest that I am tall . I imagine that there is a good deal of GRRM in him as well.)

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I must admit I don't like Asha as a POV very much. I find it hard to relate to characters who seem to have to self-doubt at all, and Asha does seem quite oneśdimensional in this regard. She certainly is preferable to other candidates as a ruler of Iron Islands, but I think I prefer to see her from outside.

Reader is very nice character, showing us that nor all ironmen are stereotypical reavers. We hear that archmaester Marwyn has wrote a book which is popular enough to find its way to Rodrik's hands. It means he must be quite famous scholar. Other books are also mentioned, and Rodrik also telllsus that all tales about history existing in Westeros are doubtful.

I rather pitied Tris. He is another example of a non-stereotypical ironman, but he had the misfortune to fall for the wrong woman.

[Jon Targaryen]

I would really love to see Signs and Portents. Perhaps Marwyn will discuss it with Dany.

GRRM puts in a little mention of Maegor and the Poor Fellows that will have more significance later. Funny, I thought it was just a throwaway comment when I first read the chapter in Dragon.

Theon and Asha share a taste in companions. They don’t want the warm milk type.

In archmeaster Marwin's Book of Lost Books he mentions discovering three pages of the writing Signs and Portents by a Targyren maiden before the Doom of Valeria.Mayhaps this is the book that contained the prophacy of TPTWP.If there was a more complete copy anywhere it would likely have been in the library at the Red Keep. Its information may also have been the reason for the Targs escaping the Doom in the first place.

The book may contain the prophecy but it is 5000 years old according to Melisandre.

[Lupigis]

Not precisely the most exciting chapter of AFFC. I agree with Geoff:

These Ironborn chapters felt very much like set-up chapters for further development in following books.

Asha remembers telling Tris: "I want to have adventures!" I'm sure she'll have plenty in the coming books, but one wonders which adventures, precisely? Where will she end up, and doing what?

[cteresa]

I am so not into the Iron Isle chapters. Even the exciting ones just leave me cold. They are nicely written, with moving characters ( Alannys for example), or likeable ones ( I love Rodrik reading in audience), or ones you feel sorry for ( Tris, loving more than he is loved back), but somehow maybe it´s the sense that the main part of the story is not happening here, maybe it´s just that society, it might be realistic but it feels stranger and harder to relate than the other ones. This is not a judgment, just a remark. I do like how GRRM does show us the diversity there is in any society, this is a perfect example of that.

Something we now know for sure, Marwyn is deeply interested in old arcane books, which is giving new hints that something important must be in the books Sam is carrying or in the book Maester Aemon wanted Jon to read.

Another great line ( true of course), "I prefer my history dead. Dead history is writen on ink, the living sort on blood".

[Wouter]

Another great line ( true of course), "I prefer my history dead. Dead history is writen on ink, the living sort on blood".

Great line, I agree!

While Asha is much better than the rest of the Greyjoys, she doesn't come off very sympathetic in this chapter imo. Her behaviour toward Tris isn't very likeable.

I wonder what she will do in the next books. Making peace with the divided northmen will be very difficult, considering what the ironborn did to when plundering the west coast and that other northern lords won't feel bonded by agreements to a few northern houses.

[Ashara Stark]

My two cents:

In AFfC we discover three book devourers, Aemon, Sam and the Reader. I (as probably most of you do) understand very well how they how they can forget what time it is when they are reading.

Archmaester Ringley's thesis

history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanged. what has happened before will perforce happen again

supports all the crackpot theories that have been discussed in this board based on old legends, like the Last Hero

[Thynessa Reed]

I too, like a lot of the other posters, am not particularly enamoured of the Ironborn POVs, even though I do like Asha Greyjoy herself. And now there is one other Ironborn I can like - the Harlaw of Harlaw, who sits reading beneath one of the oldest sigils in Westeros - that of a silver scythe upon a night black field - whilst his two half-mad sisters moan and wander his castle of the TenTowers.

What is most notable for me about this chapter is it’s Board provenance. It was our very own Dalla with Child who was consulted by GRRM re: what to feed new born babies whose mother’s milk had dried up. And it’s all there in black white. “Goats milk†she said. And “Goats milk†is what he wrote. It’s like 2 degrees of separation

[cteresa]

I been strongly avoiding any spoilers about ADWD but the last bits of this Asha chapter made me wonder if it was going to be a contrast between Dany in a chapter nearby, the comments about being a queen and not an object of desire that is achievable.

[False Prophet]

I made note of the "history is a wheel" reference, but then I saw that Ran has done a great job of creating a references thread elsewhere. Martin has packed this book with lots of fun nods to other works.

I don't see how "history is a wheel" nods to any other work. The concept is so ancient and so universal that it is impossible to assign it to any work of fiction. At best, they use it; none of them invents it.

Leo

The Iron Isles leave me somewhat perplexed. On the one hand they appear to have an entirely despicable and parasitical culture, without even the excuse of the RL Vikings of being explorers and settlers as well as raiders.

Despicable is the word. I hate them with passion and want them to fail more than I want any other side to fail. I just get so ticked by them. But this is good; it means that the author has done a good job that their portrayal elicits strong emotions from the reader, whether good or bad.

Leo

[Wouter]

I don't see how "history is a wheel" nods to any other work. The concept is so ancient and so universal that it is impossible to assign it to any work of fiction. At best, they use it; none of them invents it.

Does "archmaester Rigney" ring a bell, the one who wrote that history is a wheel? Hint: what was Robert Jordan's real name again?

I agree about the ironborn, as a rule they are the least sympathetic side in the whole of westeros (others excluded).

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Another point just occured to me. We don't get to hear AAsha talking with her mother. Asha thinks that she must tell her that Theon is dead, but later she admits that it isn't sure. Perhaps mother asked her to save him - point for the theory that Asha is going to Dreadfort.

[rpthomps]

small things...

"...his nose rose like a shark's fin..." (258) - wonderful description

I was trying to determine who the Drowned God was favoring in this chapter. The sea was the churning for Vicatarion(blamed on the Sotrm God) but it was completely drowned out by the horn for Euron.

[A wilding]

Hardly any posts on these chapters yet, in stark contrast to the Jaime & Cersei ones last week ...

Thought I would post about Victarion's salt wife (hereafter VSW), seeing I am of the opinion that there is a twist or two yet to be revealed here.

From Theon's description of the institution, I got the clear impression that salt wives are basically slave concubines taken in raids and given no choice of who their salt husband is. If this is the case, then VSW may not have had much say in the matter when Euron decided to take her to bed, even if he did not use force (or imply he would use force if she resisted). In that case Victarion's reaction seems rather extreme. He might be expected to be angry over Euron stealing his property, and might decide to kill VSW or throw her out as damaged goods, but I would imagine that Euron giving Victarion a replacement or two or some sort of equivalent would be sufficient recompense.

So either the salt wife relationship is a bit more equal than was implied earlier, or the Victarion/VSW relationship was a rough parallel to the Tyrion/Shae one; in that Victarion had fallen in love, and VSW was not so stupid as to let him know what she really thought.

Incidentally, how did Victarion find out about Euron and VSW? Did Euron just openly boast of it?

The other point that struck me rereading was that Euron is significantly different to the other Iron Islanders and that there is a widespread distrust of him as a result. They did elect him, but I got the impression that if he gets into serious trouble they are likely to just shrug their shoulders and quietly go home.