Dresden Files, Pt 2 (spoilers)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Charles,

To me the issue is two fold. Molly idealizes Harry and Harry still sees Molly as a kid/his reaponsiblity. Harry's feelings aren't terribly unusual or inappropriate in my opinion.

I'm 44 married,with two kids, and a career. My parents (I'm their oldest) still see me as the baby they held and brought home from the hospital. Harry acted in loco parentis for Molly for quite some time. Asking him to set aside those paternal feelings and see Molly in a romantic light is, in my opinion, too much and kinda weird.

[C.T. Phipps]

Charles,

To me the issue is two fold. Molly idealizes Harry and Harry still sees Molly as a kid/his reaponsiblity. Harry's feelings aren't terribly unusual or inappropriate in my opinion.

I'm 44 married,with two kids, and a career. My parents (I'm their oldest) still see me as the baby they held and brought home from the hospital. Harry acted in loco parentis for Molly for quite some time. Asking him to set aside those paternal feelings and see Molly in a romantic light is, in my opinion, too much and kinda weird.

Eh, I guess I see that as a problem of Harry's an inappropriate on his end since Molly made it clear she does not see him as anything more than a friend of the family's.

But you're right, Harry has repeatedly stated that he views Molly "not that way."

Which gets kind of squicky given he also goes on and on about her attractiveness.

So I think Harry's feelings are somewhat conflicted.

I do hope Jim resolves them firmly way way or the other. I love Molly but if the romance isn't going anywhere, she should join up with someone else.

[BLU-RAY]

For me, the idea that Molly will never ever be a mature enough woman to have a relationship with Harry is infantalizing. Part of what I DO hate about their relationship is the blatant paternalism Harry shows to her as an adult. The idea that, as her former teacher, he has ANY authority or power over her. No, he doesn't. He had authority over her almost a decade ago and she's probably one of the most powerful wizards in the world now (even without her status as the Winter Queen). The attempt by Harry to shove Molly into the role of his his devoted lovestruck schoolgirl apprentice is really really irksome.

Molly is an adult, almost in her thirties. I can't think of something more offensive than acting like Harry will always somehow be her spiritual guide and guru.

As a fan of the series, I will say that one of the things it does not do well is the passage of time. I *really* don't get the feeling from the books that it's been 10-15 years since Storm Front, even though that's clearly the case. Dunno why - it might be a symptom of the case-files structure of most of the books.

ETA: Actually, I think a lot of what it is is that each book takes place over a very short period of time (a couple of days to a couple of weeks), with multiple months to a year in between each. So there is very little sense of day-to-day life, which is a thing that makes you feel the passage of time.

[C.T. Phipps]

As a fan of the series, I will say that one of the things it does not do well is the passage of time. I *really* don't get the feeling from the books that it's been 10-15 years since Storm Front, even though that's clearly the case. Dunno why - it might be a symptom of the case-files structure of most of the books.

ETA: Actually, I think a lot of what it is is that each book takes place over a very short period of time (a couple of days to a couple of weeks), with multiple months to a year in between each. So there is very little sense of day-to-day life, which is a thing that makes you feel the passage of time.

I admit, that is kind of a thing isn't it?

A lot of fans are horrified by Molly because they see her as Michael's teenage daughter.

When it's been, as you say over a decade since she was a teenager.

Sometimes she's still written that way, though.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Way too much baggage there for it to be anything but a disaster. Harry holds himself responsible for what she's become, number one. There's already a ton of guilt on his head. Micheal and his family have sacrificed so much to help him that there is no way he crosses that line. On top of that, she's now the Winter Lady. I doubt he would be able to completely trust that she is in control of her own faculties at this point.

[HairBearHero]

As a fan of the series, I will say that one of the things it does not do well is the passage of time. I *really* don't get the feeling from the books that it's been 10-15 years since Storm Front, even though that's clearly the case. Dunno why - it might be a symptom of the case-files structure of most of the books.

ETA: Actually, I think a lot of what it is is that each book takes place over a very short period of time (a couple of days to a couple of weeks), with multiple months to a year in between each. So there is very little sense of day-to-day life, which is a thing that makes you feel the passage of time.

Each person's characterisation changes very little from book to book as well, which lends the impression that they're chronologically close. The changes are very gradual and smooth, which isn't necessarily how real life works.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Each person's characterisation changes very little from book to book as well, which lends the impression that they're chronologically close. The changes are very gradual and smooth, which isn't necessarily how real life works.

Also that major events in the characters lives rarely happen between books.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Also that major events in the characters lives rarely happen between books.

Seems like that's changed a bit lately though. Or maybe it was just between Changes and Ghost Story. There were a ton of off screen developments between those two books. Molly as this sort of street level, bag lady sorceress, and Butters becoming a sort of artificer for two.

[davos]

As a fan of the series, I will say that one of the things it does not do well is the passage of time. I *really* don't get the feeling from the books that it's been 10-15 years since Storm Front, even though that's clearly the case. Dunno why - it might be a symptom of the case-files structure of most of the books.

ETA: Actually, I think a lot of what it is is that each book takes place over a very short period of time (a couple of days to a couple of weeks), with multiple months to a year in between each. So there is very little sense of day-to-day life, which is a thing that makes you feel the passage of time.

I'm rereading the series (actually listeNing to the audio books this time through. While it's not the topic of this post, I just want to say how incredible James Marsters is as the nwrrwtor). While I shared your concern when reading the books, most were read rather spaced out. When listening/reading them in close proximity I've been struck by how present the passage of time actually is. Butcher achieves primarily through two factors. First, he makes frequent reference to the season and the weather, which highlights that we are at often at a different point in the year than the last insrallment. Second, we see changes in Harry in response to him processing the events of the previous book. While I would like to see more changes in the supporting characters, I suspect this is somewhat intentional. Harry doesn't age at the same rate as non wizard humans, and Harry being often clueless, may not fully realize how much the lives of those around him are shifting.

[Humble AK]

Speaking of passage of time, I can't believe my old thread lasted so long. I feel bad for Butcher that that rather harsh initial post was the first thing those on this board curious about his books would see.

Anyway, if anyone is curious about the years later Flash forward, I am a big fan of Dresden Files now. Can't wait for the next one.

[Howdyphillip]

Here is a quick question. Does Skin Games have any chance at all of winning the Hugo this year? I know that it was a Sad Puppy addition to the ballot, and I certainly don't aprove of the motivations that got it nominated, but I still truly loved this book.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HP,

I like the DF, I just don't seem them as "Hugo" level, at least not yet. If one should have been nominted I'd have perfered Dead Beat or Changes.

[C.T. Phipps]

Here is a quick question. Does Skin Games have any chance at all of winning the Hugo this year? I know that it was a Sad Puppy addition to the ballot, and I certainly don't aprove of the motivations that got it nominated, but I still truly loved this book.

 

Skin Games is one of the worst Dresden Files, IMHO, so I'd be saddened if IT'S the book that gets the nod versus Changes, Proven Guilty, Small Favor, Ghost Story, or White Night but I hope it does.

Jim has had a long career of making fantasy readers happy.

[Mars447]

Skin Games had many parts that were cringe inductively awful.  In fact, during most times that Hannah Ascher is "on page".

[Howdyphillip]

I also fell like Changes is by far the best book of the series. but I don't hold the opinion that Skin Games was his worst book. I personally would rank it high on my Dresden files list.

[C.T. Phipps]

I also fell like Changes is by far the best book of the series. but I don't hold the opinion that Skin Games was his worst book. I personally would rank it high on my Dresden files list.

 

A lot of fans were really rankled by the bait and switch of Murphy and Harry have an Awesome Team UpTM going to HELL as two badasses with her wielding a holy sword.

 

And....yeah, that not happening.

 

I like Michael, he's awesome, but if you promise me Optimus Prime and G.I. Joe fighting Unicron then I'm going to be disappointed if Ironhide is suddenly substituted.

[Mars447]

 

A lot of fans were really rankled by the bait and switch of Murphy and Harry have an Awesome Team UpTM going to HELL as two badasses with her wielding a holy sword.

 

And....yeah, that not happening.

 

I like Michael, he's awesome, but if you promise me Optimus Prime and G.I. Joe fighting Unicron then I'm going to be disappointed if Ironhide is suddenly substituted.

Also, Michael's already had his happy ending.  By rights if he ever came back into the game it would be to die.  Meanwhile Jim Butcher has basically been breaking down poor Murphy non-stop, and the only bright moment she's had recently has had to do with Harry and their relationship.  Which, you know, doesn't really say good things about his willingness to allow Murphy to remain the awesome, independent-minded badass that we know and love versus becoming an appendage of Harry.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

A lot of fans were really rankled by the bait and switch of Murphy and Harry have an Awesome Team UpTM going to HELL as two badasses with her wielding a holy sword.

 

And....yeah, that not happening.

 

I like Michael, he's awesome, but if you promise me Optimus Prime and G.I. Joe fighting Unicron then I'm going to be disappointed if Ironhide is suddenly substituted.

 

 I enjoyed the Butters transformation. I thought that was a pretty solid twist. I thought for sure that Micheal was going to die in that scene as well, and I'm glad Butcher didn't make that sacrifice. The poor guy has lost enough already.

[Mars447]

 

 I enjoyed the Butters transformation. I thought that was a pretty solid twist. I thought for sure that Micheal was going to die in that scene as well, and I'm glad Butcher didn't make that sacrifice. The poor guy has lost enough already.

I really hated Butters in Skin Game.  It really highlighted how much of a wish fulfillment character he is, with his forced relationship with Andi, those stupid "cool" magical gadgets, and especially that goddamned lightsaber.

[C.T. Phipps]

I really hated Butters in Skin Game.  It really highlighted how much of a wish fulfillment character he is, with his forced relationship with Andi, those stupid "cool" magical gadgets, and especially that goddamned lightsaber.

 

I don't mind wish fulfillment characters. HARRY is a geeky wizard all the ladies love after all.

 

And lightsabers are awesome.

 

I just felt his development came at the deterrent of Murphy, which is not cool.

 

Also, if you're going to argue that Murphy is unworthy of the Sword of Faith, maybe you shouldn't make your chosen champion of Faith a man who displayed immense faithlessness the entire book.