Heresy 167

[Matthew.]

Always has, always will. I think Dany brought the tide for the Fire-branches of magic when she hatched the dragons, and it now grows as they grow.

Clearly, as Hallyne suggests, some things are now possible again because dragons have returned to the world.

Dany's hatching was no accident. She knew exactly what would happen.

I think this is what's closest to the truth, and it is essentially what we're told by Quaithe. My question would be, if Quaithe was being deceptive, what exactly is gained through that deception? How is Dany's trajectory as a character changed if she believes that awakening the dragons strengthened magic, vs. magic awakening of its own accord? I guess we could say it's stroking her ego, except Dany hasn't really taken that comment to heart, or dwelled upon it subsequently.

Is it, then, GRRM using Quaithe to deceive the reader into believing that Dany bringing back the dragons has brought back magic? If so, why? What is the plot potential of a world where magic is seasonal, and the reader has merely been tricked into thinking that what Dany did is responsible for the return of magic?

At least, under the scenario that Quaithe has presented, we can see some potential plot consequences. If magic can be strengthened, then we must conversely assume that it can also be weakened--in other words, to stop the world from being plagued with fire wights, glass candle users, etc. you can slay Dany and her dragons.

If that isn't true, then I don't really see the point of introducing the whole gray sheep concept with Marwyn :dunno:

[Voice]

Maester Aemon, resurrected by Marwyn.

Jon, resurrected by Mel.

Remember, Moqorro tells us about all these dragons out and about (old and young, true and false, etc)

While I technically agree with almost all of this (and would add that Rangers have been disappearing for 2 years at the start of AGOT), I'm less sure of the bolded part. Was it not you who argued that what Bran sees in his dream is what is happening in the present, at that moment in time? The comet wasn't out yet (IIRC) when Bran had this dream.

Also, just wanted to say I liked your analysis of dragons and Others- they are not evil, their habits are simply inconvenient for all things living. It's an age-old conflict of interest, predator and prey. :D

:cheers:

Indeed, the comet was not yet visible to people with two feet on the ground when Bran had his dream. But, Bran was flying high over the earth. From his unique vantage point, he was able to see far across the horizon, like Major Tom ;) And, while the red comet itself was not yet visible, to people on the ground, the eggs certainly already existed for Illyrio to acquire...

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the JadeSea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

[Voice]

I think this is what's closest to the truth, and it is essentially what we're told by Quaithe. My question would be, if Quaithe was being deceptive, what exactly is gained through that deception? How is Dany's trajectory as a character changed if she believes that awakening the dragons strengthened magic, vs. magic awakening of its own accord? I guess we could say it's stroking her ego, except Dany hasn't really taken that comment to heart, or dwelled upon it subsequently.

Is it, then, GRRM using Quaithe to deceive the reader into believing that Dany bringing back the dragons has brought back magic? If so, why? What is the plot potential of a world where magic is seasonal, and the reader has merely been tricked into thinking that what Dany did is responsible for the return of magic?

At least, under the scenario that Quaithe has presented, we can see some potential plot consequences. If magic can be strengthened, then we must conversely assume that it can also be weakened--in other words, to stop the world from being plagued with fire wights, glass candle users, etc. you can slay Dany and her dragons.

If that isn't true, then I don't really see the point of introducing the whole gray sheep concept with Marwyn :dunno:

I'm not saying that heretics are paranoid ;) LOL but there is a certain excess of suspicion when it comes to Heresy... We've no reason to doubt Quaithe, nor her intentions. In truth, thus far in the series, it has been the smiling, jovial faces, that have proven the least trustworthy. Someone as obviously suspect as Quaithe, is probably completely innocent. After all... GRRM.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I dont know if the Targs didnt bring their dreams to life i think they more misread them like in the Mystery Knight but thats neither here nor there.

The "fire magic" seems to me to be obviously growing stronger with dragons around and we have examples put in front of us to show that, but with "ice magic" do we get any examples of people saying or even using "ice magic"? We see Others who are def a product of the "ice magic" but we have no clue if they're stronger than before or the same or what. We know nothing... about "ice magic"

[Voice]

I dont know if the Targs didnt bring their dreams to life i think they more misread them like in the Mystery Knight but thats neither here nor there.

The "fire magic" seems to me to be obviously growing stronger with dragons around and we have examples put in front of us to show that, but with "ice magic" do we get any examples of people saying or even using "ice magic"? We see Others who are def a product of the "ice magic" but we have no clue if they're stronger than before or the same or what. We know nothing... about "ice magic"

Agreed. We simply are not aware of that end of the spectrum. Martin has left it purposefully opaque. A literal Wall separates us from such forces. It does seem that while humans can wield the other branches of magic (Valyrians and Fire, Rhoynar and Water, First Men/Singers and Earth), only inhuman Others can wield Ice.

[wolfmaid7]

Great point. Targs have always had dragon dreams. But, there has also been a very long line of Targs (and Blackfyres) who have failed to bring those dreams to life.

Dany succeeded where that long line of Targaryen/Blackfyre Dragon Dreamers had failed.

And I stand by that statement, "We don't know for sure, but Dany seems to be the one and only person this particular power influenced." We have surely seen other magicians' power grow, but that amplification seems to have only occurred since the birth of dragons. And it isn't just the pyromancers...

Dany III ACOK

“No trick,” a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. “What mean you, my lady?”

“Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets.”

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. “And now?”

“And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it.”

“Me?” She laughed. “How could that be?”

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

Of course we can dispute Quaithe's words. She's cryptic, and may lie for all we know, but as of yet, do we have any textual reason to doubt the veracity of her statements? Suspicions, I understand. But if there is a case to be made against her statement, I'm having a hard time seeing it.

I completely agree that this sudden magical event is unique to Daenerys. In fact, that's my point. She provided the womb for this magic to return to the world. We err to dismiss her role as caught in the ebb and flow of magic. She wasn't, and GRRM's statement on the event seems to support this.

Rather than being caught int the tide, she brought the tide.

Indeed I am saying precisely that. Luwin was looking at the sky to observe the lengthening and shortening of days, not to track the red comet. They had no idea the comet would arrive until it arrived. It isn't like a Halley's, where it comes once a lifetime. If it has any sort of pattern at all, the last time it came would have predated written language in Westeros. But, in truth, there is no record of the red comet coming before... ever.

Always has, always will. I think Dany brought the tide for the Fire-branches of magic when she hatched the dragons, and it now grows as they grow.

Clearly, as Hallyne suggests, some things are now possible again because dragons have returned to the world.

Dany's hatching was no accident. She knew exactly what would happen.

I disagree,with this.His obseveation had nothing to do with observing the length of days.This kind of observation is done through the Citadel.

“There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one, but it must have been brought by someone in the king’s party. We have had no other visitors from the south.”

“A wooden box, you say?” Catelyn said.

“Inside was a fine new lens for the observatory, from Myr by the look of it. The lenscrafters of Myr are without equal.”

Ned frowned. He had little patience for this sort of thing, Catelyn knew. “A lens,” he said. “What has that to do with me?”

“I asked the same question,” Maester Luwin said. “Clearly there was more to this than the seeming.”

Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. “A lens is an instrument to help us see.”

“Indeed it is.” He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.

Luuwin is no fool,he may have been one of those planted to maintain a kind of ignorance,but this quote tells me this was a message within a message and coming back to Bran's coma dream:

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book.

I think the Citadel knows exactly what it means when the Red Comet runs,if some of them are also anticipating a Summer than never ends then they know of and can guess the signs.

As to Dany's hatching not being and accident i agree,that was intinct that led her to do that.That is the kind of magic "natural intinctive" that doesn't die.

[Mace Cooterian]

I think this is what's closest to the truth, and it is essentially what we're told by Quaithe. My question would be, if Quaithe was being deceptive, what exactly is gained through that deception? How is Dany's trajectory as a character changed if she believes that awakening the dragons strengthened magic, vs. magic awakening of its own accord? I guess we could say it's stroking her ego, except Dany hasn't really taken that comment to heart, or dwelled upon it subsequently.

Is it, then, GRRM using Quaithe to deceive the reader into believing that Dany bringing back the dragons has brought back magic? If so, why? What is the plot potential of a world where magic is seasonal, and the reader has merely been tricked into thinking that what Dany did is responsible for the return of magic?

At least, under the scenario that Quaithe has presented, we can see some potential plot consequences. If magic can be strengthened, then we must conversely assume that it can also be weakened--in other words, to stop the world from being plagued with fire wights, glass candle users, etc. you can slay Dany and her dragons.

If that isn't true, then I don't really see the point of introducing the whole gray sheep concept with Marwyn :dunno:

I'm not saying that heretics are paranoid ;) LOL but there is a certain excess of suspicion when it comes to Heresy... We've no reason to doubt Quaithe, nor her intentions. In truth, thus far in the series, it has been the smiling, jovial faces, that have proven the least trustworthy. Someone as obviously suspect as Quaithe, is probably completely innocent. After all... GRRM.

Maybe Quaithe is .....(dare I say it)....a Red Herring in and of herself.

[Black Crow]

Maybe Quaithe is .....(dare I say it)....a Red Herring in and of herself.

May well be the case. She may well "know" things but I feel she's too peripheral to be an important character in her own right. The mask may be significant and she may be someone from an older age, just as is Bloodraven and the equally masked Coldhands, but I'm of a mind that these are devices to add mystery rather than to cloak players.

[Black Crow]

Agreed. We simply are not aware of that end of the spectrum. Martin has left it purposefully opaque. A literal Wall separates us from such forces. It does seem that while humans can wield the other branches of magic (Valyrians and Fire, Rhoynar and Water, First Men/Singers and Earth), only inhuman Others can wield Ice.

This is rather what I've been arguing although I suspect we're still in disagreement as to who is wielding the magic, for what is Earth but a synonym for nature and therefore encompassing Ice as its most extreme and ultimately lethal aspect.

We've talked upthread about magic being capable of used as a weapon of mass destruction and in that context Ice and Fire are not independent powers but rather represent the ultimate weapons of nature and man respectively. I've pointed out before how notwithstanding GRRM's anecdotes of standing on Hadrian's Wall, the Wall which we know is also an allegory for the Berlin Wall which fell bare months before GRRM started this happy tale of ordinary countryfolk. As such it points to the greater allegory of the two powers separated by it, each capable of destroying the world.

[Regular John Umber]

My apologies for derailing the thought a little bit on this post, but I have been reading these blog posts on one woman's initial read and reactions to the series. I must say, she has a much more astute first read than I did.

Anyway, after reading Catelyn's interrogation of Jaime in the Riverrun cells, she comments about learning more of Ned/Brandon/Lyanna/Rhaegar, but still is unsure of what it means in the long run. But this particular comment struck out to me on what has been discussed the last few heresies.

Just found that interesting. Here is a link if you're curious of more of her thoughts.

http://www.tor.com/series/a-read-of-ice-and-fire/

Hah! I love it.

[Black Crow]

Not being afraid to admit I don't know - who is Leigh Butler and why is it significant that she is commenting?

[Regular John Umber]

:cheers:

Indeed, the comet was not yet visible to people with two feet on the ground when Bran had his dream. But, Bran was flying high over the earth. From his unique vantage point, he was able to see far across the horizon, like Major Tom ;) And, while the red comet itself was not yet visible, to people on the ground, the eggs certainly already existed for Illyrio to acquire...

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the JadeSea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I tend to agree here; I also don't think it necessary that a comet be visible, just that it be coming closer.

I've also always wonder why this was added to the story:

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

That sounds like a subtly misinterpreted truth from the Qartheen. A wandering moon could be a comet; dragons could come "from" the comet in the way that the comet's appearance could increase magical activity, etc.

[Regular John Umber]

I think this is what's closest to the truth, and it is essentially what we're told by Quaithe. My question would be, if Quaithe was being deceptive, what exactly is gained through that deception?

It might not be deception. It might just be ignorance.

How is Dany's trajectory as a character changed if she believes that awakening the dragons strengthened magic, vs. magic awakening of its own accord? I guess we could say it's stroking her ego, except Dany hasn't really taken that comment to heart, or dwelled upon it subsequently.

It puts her in a position to control magic for one end or another; even (as BC has suggested) to kill the magic she helped introduced.

At least, under the scenario that Quaithe has presented, we can see some potential plot consequences. If magic can be strengthened, then we must conversely assume that it can also be weakened--in other words, to stop the world from being plagued with fire wights, glass candle users, etc. you can slay Dany and her dragons.

If that isn't true, then I don't really see the point of introducing the whole gray sheep concept with Marwyn :dunno:

I don't see your scenario and the one previously mentioned as being mutually exclusive; in fact, they seem to be the same to me: you have magic strengthening (by human hand or naturally) and you have decision that need to be made: do you ride the wave (that you created, or that you caught) or do you make a braver decision.

[Regular John Umber]

Agreed. We simply are not aware of that end of the spectrum. Martin has left it purposefully opaque. A literal Wall separates us from such forces. It does seem that while humans can wield the other branches of magic (Valyrians and Fire, Rhoynar and Water, First Men/Singers and Earth), only inhuman Others can wield Ice.

I guess that depends on how you define "Ice" :) I think that the others are Ice, and that they're being wielded by someone.

[Regular John Umber]

Not being afraid to admit I don't know - who is Leigh Butler and why is it significant that she is commenting?

http://www.tor.com/author/leigh-butler/

Just a blogger.

Edit: sorry for all the posts, but you guys are really quick!

[Black Crow]

I'd gathered that :cool4: but got the impression from the references to her above that she's held in some considerable respect. This is not to imply a lack of respect on my part, quite the contrary, especially given what is clearly a very independent viewpoint.

[Black Crow]

I guess that depends on how you define "Ice" :) I think that the others are Ice, and that they're being wielded by someone.

Exactly so, hence my post #189 above. Voice and I are in disagreement here as he insists that the children sing the songs of earth, not Ice, but I myself believe that earth and nature are synonymous [as in Mother Earth/Mother Nature] and that Ice - and Winter - far from being separate is nature in its most extreme form.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't think the story is being told in the way that one person (Dany) can provide the means for a worldwide surge of magic. No more than one Hero to solve all the problems and save the day. Dany's pyre ritual was localized and effected her and the dragon eggs. That's my opinion anyway and I will drop it for now. Maybe, I should create a thread about these minor characters. :)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Not being afraid to admit I don't know - who is Leigh Butler and why is it significant that she is commenting?

I believe she made her name/reputation through her Wheel of Time Reread... which functioned as a sort of compendium of information and chapter summaries for Robert Jordan's infamously long, infamously fatal fantasy series. It may have grown out of an early fansite, but eventually became a high-profile resource all its own - regardless, her fame derives from the Wheel of Time reader/fan base. Her foray into ASOIAF is essentially a follow up to that... the difference being that the ASOIAF blog is not a Reread, but a First Read (A Read of Ice and Fire). So reading the comments to her chapter summaries are rather funny - because you get a bunch of Martin fans commenting on Butler's first impressions, pointing out RLJ "clues" and arguing about things. And she doesn't read them - because she's committed to avoiding all spoilers. (The project started back in 2011 - here's the Intro post announcing her decision to do the Martin books.)

I haven't actually followed her, myself - but I have family members who've enjoyed her work. Apparently she's pretty funny.

[Amoracchius]

On the other hand, Summerhall's failure may not have been because it wasn't the right time, magically, but because the end point of the D&E novels is that Dunk is forced to defy his own king. Rhaegar is born on the same day as the tragedy, and it's not clear whether or not Rhaella was present at Summerhall, but it's worth considering that it may have been Aegon V's intent that Rhaegar be sacrificed like Rhaego.

I'm making a highly speculative case here, but we know that those who survived Summerhall only made it out because of Duncan, and my suspicion is that Egg went full Targ-crazy in his obsession with dragons, and that things went awry because Dunk decides to save Rhaella/Rhaegar and is forced to kill his king.

Edit: And still, this "tidal" concept wouldn't explain why Valyrian magic seemed to roll along just fine for 5,000+ years, while ice and earth seemed to be in decline during the same time frame.

Sorry, I'm confused and must have missed something. Where do the bolded ideas come from?