Heresy 167

[moey reed]

Yes, its been a bit dodgy of late, but persevere we must.

Its a good question about magic and as far as there is any consensus on heresy [beyond the commitment to free speech] there is a strong feeling that a possible outcome to this is the defeat of magic.

My own feeling, roundly disputed by some is that the walkers and everything that goes with them are the servants of the children and that what is at stake is the survival of man on the one hand and the survival of the old powers on the other, and that the Starks will have to decide whose side they are on.

i like the defeat of magic idea a lot, it seems as if magic keeps building up and at some point the sides are going to clash, maybe erasing each other.

Their position is that they want to treat the fanon (beginning with RLJ) as a basic foundation and then build more fanon on top of it. Because it's fun.

If someone comes along and says "Hey, you know... that foundation seems awfully shaky -- why are you treating it as sound?" that person is not going to be well liked or well respected.

It reminds me a bit of how the Targs must have sounded to the other Valyrians: "Hey, you know... our freehold is going to be destroyed in a single day in a huge cataclysm, so maybe we should move somewhere else first?"

Crazy talk, right? The Targs must have sounded druggie-gone-nuts at the time.

yes, i totally agree. stating facts and having another opinion, so uncalled for. :devil: and talk about those crazy targs with their weird outside the box thinking

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

SOOO men winning a battle that would put an end to the old powers( magic stuff)... will the elf's i mean children of the forest become extinct after this and will people stop worshiping Ents i mean weirwoods? If only we could have a huge battle at the end and have huge eagles i mean dragons save the day. Maybe we'll even get an Orc i mean stark riding a wolf into battle.

We've had whole heresys devoted to Heart of Darkness maybe time for a Tolkien, if you've read Children of Hurin we even have dragons causing incest by Tolkien.

[Voice]

I had forgotten about that quote from Aemon. Yes he definitely equates the two as one person and neither Mel, Stannis or Sam contradict him, so we are left with the impression that these two men are one and the same. However Mell claims that the PtwP is also Azor Ahai reborn in Stannis. So now we've got three for the price of one. But legends tend to have that happen to them in Martin's world mythos so I'll still hold my level of doubt on this one.

Famke wasn't always (and indeed is not now) too old. I started reading these books in the late 1990s so she was none too old then. :P

You'll hear no argument from me regarding Famke's beauty. She's beautiful enough to play Lyanna, even now. But I must admit my mental image of Lya is of a rebellious girl of six an ten. And as lovely as Famke is, she can't pull off such indignant youth.

As to the legends and heroes discussion, it is a varied playing field. We have multiple characters that fit the archetypes of Northern, Valyrian, and Asshai'i lore. Beric Dondarrion's sword burned hot in his hand, alive with fire. Yet, clearly Beric was not Azor Ahai... Or was he?

Dany was born amidst salt and smoke, and literally woke dragons from stone. She seems to fit the bill, yet GRRM described her as a threat to Westeros, rather than its savior.

Jon could be something, or he could be nothing.

Stannis is a joke, and it's hard to follow a man you laugh at in your cups.

Who else is there? Tyrion? Samwell? Arya? There must surely be more.

Or, mayhaps, a newcomer will suddenly burst into the fray from stage-left, surprising everyone (like Tywin at the Blackwater, Stannis at the Wall, Ramsay at Theon's Winterfell, etc).

We don't honestly know if Qyburn or Marwyn aren't descendents of FM but yes I see your point, and agree with it. Also, where in Essos did the Firstmen come from? Can't remember if I ever even knew, lol.

:cheers: And... we don't even know if Qyburn and Marwyn are performing magic, or are simply learned enough to apply it in some arcane scientific way.

As Matthew pointed out, they are said to have come from the Grasslands, where men today still wear Bronze Medallions and carry sickles ;)

Actually the first part boils my blood (not picking on you BC, just the assertion many have to this being the case) because the throne was lost due to right of conquest with Bobby B. That's the reason Dany needs to retake Westeros. Now could the people revolt and put Perkins Warbeck on the throne because of who they think he is? yes absolutely, but he's got no right to it even if was Edward IV's son. And lets not even mention that if RLJ is true we still have zero proof he's legitimate.

I agree totally that the person, not their heritage, is what will ultimately save the day. Or perhaps I should say persons since we seem to have an excess of would be heroes all embodying different traits that are needed by the world at large in order to make past winter.

Thanks for the welcome :cheers:

I agree with all of this. RLJ need not mean AA nor IT. Though you will have a hard time convincing me that if RLJ is true, then that has no bearing on Jon as tptwp, son of Ice and Fire, etc.

Dany is the rightful, but usurped, heir... and will needs reconquer the Seven Kingdom's her ancestor unified. Will those kindgoms take kindly to Aegon the Conqueror come again? Some likely will, I think. But most will not.

I am glad everyone in this thread is so respectful of other people's ideas, theories and opinions. I am following Weasel Pie's thread about the Tower Of Joy at the same time as I as I follow the heresy thread and the overall atmosphere is just so much more respectful over here and I wanted everyone to know that it is much appreciated and thank you Black Crow for starting the heresy thread!

:cheers: and Welcome! (In case I haven't said so already)...

Yeah, it's hard convincing people to be respectful in general. Weasel Pie's thread could open up entirely new discussions, if they'd only let it. Unfortunately, many folks prefer the echo-chamber to the uncharted territories of new and original thoughts.

Supposedly, they may have come from the Grasslands, which is known as the Dothraki Sea in modern Essos.

I think there's a very, very slight chance that there's something potentially interesting there; the WB and the HBO history and lore DVD extras have little bits of information that suggest that, rather than arriving in dribs and drabs and taking Westeros from the natives piecemeal, that the FM arrived in their thousands, and conquered their way into the North in a very short span of time.

It has been known to happen from time to time. Land grabs, gold rush, oil barons, genocide and colonialism. Not all instances have been slow, even in the real world. In Martin's I tend to think it was quick.

I haven't thought of Greenseeing and Targ Dreaming quite in those terms before, but yes to quote Terry Pratchett 'What's a mind but another world of dreaming?' If you can navigate through one than the other should present little problem.

Was it Voice or the First Men who said that dreaming would be a good way for Bran the Builder to learn the language of the Singers ITT? I know we've discussed it before, but more in terms of BtB being the first human Greenseer and how it would have freaked the FM out to the point of cutting those spying trees down. I think it's an interesting idea (yours and the aforementioned one,) that we can communicate non-verbally through dreams and that it was a skill already inherent in the First Men/Essosi .

Yes, it was BC :) but I'm honored by the confusion. I've proposed similar, but see it a bit more hands-on than a dream process.

As to your latter point, I'd remind the board that FM are at their root, Essosian creatures, so we should not be surprised to see Essosi Men with similar talents as FM characters, particularly in regards to dreaming and blood magic.

Warging and skinchanging, on the other hand, seem purely Westerosi conventions.

Please Ser, it was me Ser :commie: :commie: :commie:

Indeed it was :)

And while I don't disagree, I'd see his learning taking place more like Bran's. Not knowing the difference between being awake and asleep in BR's cave, all the while the sounds of the earth, and singers of it, fill his ears...

Ah well, that's the big question. Was it a response or was it simply the first opportunity to hatch them after the magic returned?

And who's to say the Others did not rise when the red comet first passed over the Heart of Winter? Mayhaps they are rising as a response to dragon eggs becoming fertile once more. (And yes, I am basing this idea on Old Nan saying the comet meant Dragons)

[Mace Cooterian]

"Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… mother of dragons, bride of fire…"

Could the corpse in the prow really be anyone other than ole Greyscale Connington?

I would say that he's a pretty solid candidate at first sight but there are a couple of ways of looking at it.

Is Connington himself important enough to warrant an appearance? If so is it not as the mentor of Young Aegon but as the carrier of greyscale?

On the other hand might it not be the equally doomed King Stannis [yes he is, he has Doomed tattooed across his forehead] sailing north with his daughter who also appears to be a carrier?

The following dialogue could condemn us all to purgatory or cause a battle axe to come crashing down on your breast plate, so my apologies in advance...

Based on the current season of GOT JonCon is not important enough to warrant an appearance. Jorah has apparently taken up the staff and will bring greyscale to Westeros (if it means anything in and of itself) in place of JonCon.

Regardless of JonCon or Jorah, what would be any significance of the carrier bringing greyscale to Westeros? We already have one case of it (Shireen) so what's the point of another case so what does another case have anything to do with the end game?

Besides, don't we think it very unlikely that grey scale will bring the WW'ers (or the dragons for that fact) to their knees?

P.S. Not sure dragon's have knees but that was all I could come up with.

[WhitewolfStark]

i wonder if there will be any magic left at the end of our story or if it is "back for good" or just go back to the way it was before aGoT.

edit: forum ate half my post

I feel that it's going to be a dead cat bounce. One last hurrah before magic leaves their world for forever. That feels far more Romantic (as in Romanticism) and bittersweet.

[Voice]

Besides, don't we think it very unlikely that grey scale will bring the WW'ers (or the dragons for that fact) to their knees?

P.S. Not sure dragon's have knees but that was all I could come up with.

I'd say if anything can bring a dragon to it's knees, it's greyscale. Dragons might not have knees, but they have scales. And how else can a dragon become stone, if not from greyscale? Dany saw a stone dragon in her HotU vision:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

I think Mel will wake a full sized dragon from it's greyscale slumber.

As to this passage:

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

I vote for Victarion. Uncreative, I know, but it fits.

I feel that it's going to be a dead cat bounce. One last hurrah before magic leaves their world for forever. That feels far more Romantic (as in Romanticism) and bittersweet.

Planetos can escape magical influences as easily as our own Planet can escape gravitational influences. Planetos exists in a universe governed by magical forces, as opposed to physical.

[TheSmallOther]

:cheers: And... we don't even know if Qyburn and Marwyn are performing magic, or are simply learned enough to apply it in some arcane scientific way.

Isn't "some arcane scientific way" = "magic" by definition? :)

As to your latter point, I'd remind the board that FM are at their root, Essosian creatures, so we should not be surprised to see Essosi Men with similar talents as FM characters, particularly in regards to dreaming and blood magic.

And who's to say the Others did not rise when the red comet first passed over the Heart of Winter? Mayhaps they are rising as a response to dragon eggs becoming fertile once more. (And yes, I am basing this idea on Old Nan saying the comet meant Dragons)

I think here we have similarities with theories that all mankind originated from Africa. But since it was so long ago, you will see basically no signs of it in European culture. In the book all men originated from Essos. Westeros was for giants and children of the forest.

Regarding Others, I doubt they care so much about dragons. Of course, we think they should since dragons are supposed to be their end, but did they face dragons before, during the Long Night? There is no mention of it.

[TheSmallOther]

I may be too late, but I wanted to add (my apologies if this thread isn't the right place for posting it) to your discussion in heresy 166, about the possibility of Arthur Dayne being Jon's father; I think that the last triad of visions in HotU point to that.

"Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… mother of dragons, bride of fire…"

In my opinion, this vision is about the treason for love: "her silver…" represents Daenerys; "A blue flower…" represents Jon's mother, Lyanna; "A corpse… smiling sadly." represents Arthur Dayne.

I believe that Arthur Dayne is alive and posing as Daario Naharis (see my post Arthur Dayne = Daario Naharis), and when Daenerys and Jon will meet, Arthur/Daario will choose Jon (his son, which represents Arthur's love for Lyanna) over Daenerys.

This treason will also fulfill the AAR prophecy: Jon (Azor Ahai according to Melisandre's vision) will convince Arthur Dayne (Sword of the Morning) to leave Daenerys (drawing Lightbringer from the fire)

I believe that Heresy is the right place for everything (well, not everything, but most of it). But I must admit I fail to see your point. At least it's hard to understand how that quote points to AD and his relationship with Lyanna.

[e1kabong]

Been on a hiatus for a month or so and had some catching up to do with the Heresy saga. Seems like I missed out on some craziness. Last thread, someone brought up the Bloodstone Emporer, which I've never read before, but found it to be fascinating with an implication fueled by this line:

He...cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky... his usurpation... ushered in the Long Night.

This seems to give credibility to the theory that Dawn is the original Lightbringer. A sword forged from a white meteorite to combat the evil tied to a black meteorite is just too perfect. But, it wouldn't be heresy if I didn't stretch this to tinfoil hat territory. What if the black meteorite was forged into armor (ie - white sword opposes black armor)? Going into full heresy: what if the "black ice" armor that Jon is wearing in his dream is actually black meteorite armor? Jon going to the dark side is not a new theory, but this could be a solid piece to add to it.

Can't stop there, though. There's a lot of theories that also tie Jon to Dawn (aka Lightbringer). So we can't possibly reconcile the above theory with this one, can we? We can with MORE HERESY! I have faith in R+L=J. If we follow the rabbit hole of potential clues. Stark=Ice=Black and Targ=Fire=White. Jon is both Stark and Targ, Ice and Fire. Black and White. Where else is black and white prominently featured? The faceless men and the many-faced god (House of the Black and White). If Jon has the black armor and white sword (Dawn), then his path is a dark one, possibly an avatar of Death itself.

[Black Crow]

The following dialogue could condemn us all to purgatory or cause a battle axe to come crashing down on your breast plate, so my apologies in advance...

Based on the current season of GOT JonCon is not important enough to warrant an appearance. Jorah has apparently taken up the staff and will bring greyscale to Westeros (if it means anything in and of itself) in place of JonCon.

Regardless of JonCon or Jorah, what would be any significance of the carrier bringing greyscale to Westeros? We already have one case of it (Shireen) so what's the point of another case so what does another case have anything to do with the end game?

Besides, don't we think it very unlikely that grey scale will bring the WW'ers (or the dragons for that fact) to their knees?

P.S. Not sure dragon's have knees but that was all I could come up with.

It's worth mentioning in connection with this that I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was mentioned that disease is going to be a feature of what's to come. It may simply be a question of the inevitable accompaniment of war and starvation, but I rather had the impression given Val's reaction to Shireen that it was a reference to Greyscale, hence my favouring the notion of the dead man in the boat being Stannis. Whilst the boat might suggest Victarion or another of the Viking lot the sad smile doesn't. It could be Connington of course, bringing Greyscale o'er the seas to Westeros, but I really can't shake Stannis.

What we don't know is how GRRM intends it to be transmitted. Val was scared of Shireen but everybody else seemed confident that while disfiguring it appeared to have been arrested and that she was safe to be around, but what if the real problem is Stannis, a carrier exhibiting no outward symptoms? Hence the dead man in the boat.

The obvious counter to that one is that so far no-one is dropping dead around him other than from the usual causes, but what if there's a trigger as Val seems to fear?

[Black Crow]

Regarding Others, I doubt they care so much about dragons. Of course, we think they should since dragons are supposed to be their end, but did they face dragons before, during the Long Night? There is no mention of it.

Certainly not that I'm aware of and I'd caution that while there's a popular belief that the end is foreshadowed by Danaerys' dream-wish of a re-run of the Trident with the dragons sorting out the "rebels", we're dealing here with magic.

If at first sight it seems obvious that pitting fire-breathing dragons against creatures of ice is a no brainer, the icy lot are a different kind of life who are not a race in the ordinary sense but are themselves created by magic and in that sense any conflict between the two is going to be a magical one rather than a straightforward defrosting. The dragons will have their own vulnerabilities just as they did in The Ice Dragon.

[Regular John Umber]

i wonder if there will be any magic left at the end of our story or if it is "back for good" or just go back to the way it was before aGoT.

edit: forum ate half my post

I don't know if Magic can ever truly disappear; it seems like it is more like a tool, a thing that exists, that only has any power when wielded.

Think of it as, say, a nuclear weapon. If no one knows how to make one, then no one can use it; but you can't get rid of the materials for making it. It's elemental (my theory, anyway).

But if someone has it, when no one else does...

I think that's the whole point of the Citadel and the grey rats. They can't destroy magic, so they need to keep it secret, and make sure it doesn't come into the wrong hands.

[TheSmallOther]

I don't know if Magic can ever truly disappear; it seems like it is more like a tool, a thing that exists, that only has any power when wielded.

Think of it as, say, a nuclear weapon. If no one knows how to make one, then no one can use it; but you can't get rid of the materials for making it. It's elemental (my theory, anyway).

But if someone has it, when no one else does...

I think that's the whole point of the Citadel and the grey rats. They can't destroy magic, so they need to keep it secret, and make sure it doesn't come into the wrong hands.

I'd say it depends on the sources of magic. If magic sources are somehow god-related, then it's enough for gods to decide to say goodbye and step aside. Think for example Lord of the Rings. At the end elves (the ones, who were given magical powers by gods) sail to the west, to the lands inaccessible by men. With their leave, magic is gone from the men world, but most likely remains in the elf land.

If magic is more closely related to nature, then it would be a different story.

[Remdawg]

I have a very very hard time with the idea that Daario Naharis is Arthur Dayne. Maybe its my reading and missing it but it seems odd for someone who is old enough to have knighted the ~40 year old Jaime Lannister to bed Dany without the age gap being mentioned as weird. Also, you'd think Barristan would have at some point been like "You know what? I know that guy." If Dayne is anyone I think its safe to say he's Mance and even that seems far fetched.

Additional proof, the mummer's cast a ~30-35 yo. Clearly mummer!Daario != mummer!Dayne.

On the boat, yeah I think it has to be JonCon or Stannis.

[Dragon Rider]

I believe that Heresy is the right place for everything (well, not everything, but most of it). But I must admit I fail to see your point. At least it's hard to understand how that quote points to AD and his relationship with Lyanna.

HotU visions speak about fires, mounts and treasons. My interpretation for the the triads of visions is that the first triad represents the first fire, the second triad represents the second mount and the third triad represents the third treason (treason for love).

in my opinion, this vision (the third triad) shows that someone will betray Daenerys because he loved Lyanna (Jon's mother as hinted by the blue flower in a wall of ice).

I think that the man (the corpse in the vision) is Arthur Dayne (as I explained in my linked post) and if he loved Jon's mother (Lyanna), it makes him a plausible candidate for being Jon's father,

I hope this clarify my point.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

BC,

I find Stannis hard to accept, if only because the corpse is smiling. :)

Re: SecretDaario, there's no way Ned refers to a guy with Daario's character and temperament as the greatest knight he's ever seen. Ned Stark has no time for Daario and his head-chopping, beard-dying ways. Therefore, not Arthur Dayne (who is dead anyway).

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Doublepost!

[Dragon Rider]

BC,

I find Stannis hard to accept, if only because the corpse is smiling. :)

Re: SecretDaario, there's no way Ned refers to a guy with Daario's character and temperament as the greatest knight he's ever seen. Ned Stark has no time for Daario and his head-chopping, beard-dying ways. Therefore, not Arthur Dayne (who is dead anyway).

Think of Arthur Dayne as Anakin Skywalker and of Daario Naharis as Darth Vader. Arthur broke his vows, his love dies giving birth and he descends into the shadows (the dark side), he changed his identity to one which is a complete opposite of Arthur the knight.

[Black Crow]

BC,

I find Stannis hard to accept, if only because the corpse is smiling. :)

Ah, but wistfully.

[Black Crow]

Think of Arthur Dayne as Anakin Skywalker and of Daario Naharis as Darth Vader. Arthur broke his vows, his love dies giving birth and he descends into the shadows (the dark side), he changed his identity to one which is a complete opposite of Arthur the knight.

Yeah, but leaving the mummers' version aside Daario of the books appears rather younger than Ser Arthur would be had he lived.