Heresy 167

[Black Crow]

I don't know if Magic can ever truly disappear; it seems like it is more like a tool, a thing that exists, that only has any power when wielded.

Think of it as, say, a nuclear weapon. If no one knows how to make one, then no one can use it; but you can't get rid of the materials for making it. It's elemental (my theory, anyway).

But if someone has it, when no one else does...

I think that's the whole point of the Citadel and the grey rats. They can't destroy magic, so they need to keep it secret, and make sure it doesn't come into the wrong hands.

Its an interesting way of putting it and broadly speaking I'm inclined to agree. To my mind the present conflict isn't being waged by Gods or anybody else outside the body of the book and will be won by defeating those who are using the magic rather than by destroying the magic. That's not to say that the magic won't be destroyed in the process, but primarily it's struggle against the magicians.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know if Magic can ever truly disappear; it seems like it is more like a tool, a thing that exists, that only has any power when wielded.

Think of it as, say, a nuclear weapon. If no one knows how to make one, then no one can use it; but you can't get rid of the materials for making it. It's elemental (my theory, anyway).

But if someone has it, when no one else does...

I think that's the whole point of the Citadel and the grey rats. They can't destroy magic, so they need to keep it secret, and make sure it doesn't come into the wrong hands.

I agree and probably among the few that think magic won't disappear not only because it shouldn't,is integral to how the world runs and because Magic isn't the problem.By magic i mean sorcery---the unatural bending to accomplish some means,that is a major problem in this story and has been the undoing of basically in some form or the other two civilizations.

I for one also think the Dragons are out of their time and should not have been awaken at all,nature selected them to sleep of a time and a time and half a time and them roaming the earth now when they should probably be sleeping probably not a good thing.

I agree magic is something that can't be destroyed,it can be contained and it can be forgotten,that means keping certain families in check. The Citadel has two factions and i would say the grey rats have been in control a long time.Could you imagine if the Starks had gotten a Maester like Marwin?What would happen if Dany gets a Marwin or had gotten Aemon as a Maester?

BC,

I find Stannis hard to accept, if only because the corpse is smiling. :)

Re: SecretDaario, there's no way Ned refers to a guy with Daario's character and temperament as the greatest knight he's ever seen. Ned Stark has no time for Daario and his head-chopping, beard-dying ways. Therefore, not Arthur Dayne (who is dead anyway).

Say wuhhhhh Arthur as Daario????? Yeah i think Daario is way to young to be Arthur Dayne there is just no precedence for that.

Think of Arthur Dayne as Anakin Skywalker and of Daario Naharis as Darth Vader. Arthur broke his vows, his love dies giving birth and he descends into the shadows (the dark side), he changed his identity to one which is a complete opposite of Arthur the knight.

Hi and welcome to Heresy....I have to say i find this a bit implausible given the stark age difference,but where is the precedence for that though?Character wise at the core he is nothing like AD going to the dark side withstanding.There should be some connection to AD,but nuh.

[Matthew.]

I find Stannis hard to accept, if only because the corpse is smiling. :)

Agreed, if the corpse were Stannis, it'd be grinding its teeth :mellow:

In any case, Stannis is a much better fit among her Slayer of Lies visions as the false AA/king that casts no shadow; I don't see why he would be lumped in with her "Bride of Fire" visions.

[Voice]

Isn't "some arcane scientific way" = "magic" by definition? :)

Oh not at all. Arcane science is simply old, half-forgotten, or little understood. It need not be magical.

Qyburn, in particular, seems to be a Victor Frankenstein archetype. While Dr. Frankenstein was not a magician, he was not opposed to working in arcane branches of "science" where other, more morally-opposed, doctors would not dare venture.

Marwyn is called "the Mage." And given his studies, and the lighting effects of his chambers, I'd say we have more evidence for him using magic than we do for him not using magic.

There are also the pyromancers and blacksmiths who reforge Valyrian steel. They seem to utilize magical superstitions in their practical applications of skill that are not, necessarily, magical.

Martin has created both extremes and clines of each adjacent/opposite branch of magic.

I think here we have similarities with theories that all mankind originated from Africa. But since it was so long ago, you will see basically no signs of it in European culture. In the book all men originated from Essos. Westeros was for giants and children of the forest.

Regarding Others, I doubt they care so much about dragons. Of course, we think they should since dragons are supposed to be their end, but did they face dragons before, during the Long Night? There is no mention of it.

Agreed. While the Others "may" be a response to the threat of Dragons, there is no evidence for this. But, it still may be that the Others, as an auto-immune response, rise when such threats arise. Just before the long night, that threat may have been First Men. Now, it may be some other calamity.

And then, of course, the Others may simply be "bad guys." ;)

[Black Crow]

And then, of course, the Others may simply be "bad guys." ;)

They may be, or rather their masters are [except in their own eyes], but then so are the dragons.

[Voice]

They may be, or rather their masters are [except in their own eyes], but then so are the dragons.

With dragons the opposite seems to be true huh? Their masters may not be "simply bad," but it is hard to see any good whatsoever in a dragon...

[Voice]

Meandering along this line of thought, I'm reminded of Dany the Dragon's "if I look back, I am lost" refrain.

The Others seem to have looked back...

[Black Crow]

With dragons the opposite seems to be true huh? Their masters may not be "simply bad," but it is hard to see any good whatsoever in a dragon...

Exactly so and the same is true of the walkers. Whilst there's no denying that both are capable of acting and thinking independently it is those who have unleashed them who are the true enemy.

[Voice]

Exactly so and the same is true of the walkers. Whilst there's no denying that both are capable of acting and thinking independently it is those who have unleashed them who are the true enemy.

I know you're hinting at the singers, but I think your mistrust of them is mislaid.

[Black Crow]

That remains to be seen, but perhaps a more interesting question is who is behind the dragons. Danaerys may be a dragonlord but are there other "powers" at work?

[Matthew.]

That remains to be seen, but perhaps a more interesting question is who is behind the dragons. Danaerys may be a dragonlord but are there other "powers" at work?

Well, there's Quaithe, who seems to be encouraging Dany to embrace "fire and blood." Something that might turn out to be notable is that, in Quaithe's warning about the various figures heading toward Dany, Maester Marwyn was missing from her list--unless Marwyn is the perfumed seneschal.

Now, this might just mean that Marwyn is either trustworthy, or not worth mentioning, but it could also imply that Marywn and Quaithe have similar goals, or are even working together, especially since Marwyn seems to have visited Asshai before, and also knew MMD.

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Well, there's Quaithe, who seems to be encouraging Dany to embrace "fire and blood." Something that might turn out to be notable is that, in Quaithe's warning about the various figures heading toward Dany, Maester Marwyn was missing from her list--unless Marwyn is the perfumed seneschal.

Now, this might just mean that Marwyn is either trustworthy, or not worth mentioning, but it could also imply that Marywn and Quaithe have similar goals, or are even working together, especially since Marwyn seems to have visited Asshai before, and also knew MMD.

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

Right on. My first thought upon reading BC's post is Quaithe. I also believe she is guiding Dany into pushing away any potential advisors. It seems to me that Quaithe has been blowing smoke up Dany's ass since their meeting. For example, she told Dany that magic had returned/increased because of Dany. I don't buy it.

[Voice]

Well, there's Quaithe, who seems to be encouraging Dany to embrace "fire and blood." Something that might turn out to be notable is that, in Quaithe's warning about the various figures heading toward Dany, Maester Marwyn was missing from her list--unless Marwyn is the perfumed seneschal.

Now, this might just mean that Marwyn is either trustworthy, or not worth mentioning, but it could also imply that Marywn and Quaithe have similar goals, or are even working together, especially since Marwyn seems to have visited Asshai before, and also knew MMD.

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

Another possibility is that Marwyn will never reach Dany...

Right on. My first thought upon reading BC's post is Quaithe. I also believe she is guiding Dany into pushing away any potential advisors. It seems to me that Quaithe has been blowing smoke up Dany's ass since their meeting. For example, she told Dany that magic had returned/increased because of Dany. I don't buy it.

It's a tall order to buy into, I agree. The old powers could simply be rising, with or without Dany. But Dany is the Mother of Dragons, and Dragons seem to bring additional powers into the world with them. So, I guess I also wouldn't dismiss the possibility.

I'm reminded of Wisdom Hallyne, Tyrion XI ACOK:

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also"—the alchemist shifted uncomfortably—"certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be . . ."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here by now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells; how splendid. What of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

[wolfmaid7]

Agreed. While the Others "may" be a response to the threat of Dragons, there is no evidence for this. But, it still may be that the Others, as an auto-immune response, rise when such threats arise. Just before the long night, that threat may have been First Men. Now, it may be some other calamity.

And then, of course, the Others may simply be "bad guys." ;)

Well it depends on how we are using the term "Others" here.I would say the wws and the wights are just tools to be used.And they are tools that change hands if the hand that seeks to wield them is strong.Currently,i would say the Others (*cough* another "Green"seer) may have some score to settle.

They may be, or rather their masters are [except in their own eyes], but then so are the dragons.

This is where it becomes interesting because Dany while she is a Dragonlord,she is so out of her depth and may get used herself and end up messing things up.

With dragons the opposite seems to be true huh? Their masters may not be "simply bad," but it is hard to see any good whatsoever in a dragon...

I don't think a Dragon has the concept of good or bad,its an animal.Magical yes, but still an animal.Though i will add,i believe they themselves are unatural for the age they are in.The Valyrians should not have awaken them and Dany shouldn't have recieved the eggs.Well atlease two of them should have remained cold stone

I know you're hinting at the singers, but I think your mistrust of them is mislaid.

I agree with you i don't think the little tree huggers have a lot of agency in this.

Well, there's Quaithe, who seems to be encouraging Dany to embrace "fire and blood." Something that might turn out to be notable is that, in Quaithe's warning about the various figures heading toward Dany, Maester Marwyn was missing from her list--unless Marwyn is the perfumed seneschal.

Now, this might just mean that Marwyn is either trustworthy, or not worth mentioning, but it could also imply that Marywn and Quaithe have similar goals, or are even working together, especially since Marwyn seems to have visited Asshai before, and also knew MMD.

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

Hmmm that's a really nice idea.

[Voice]

Well it depends on how we are using the term "Others" here.I would say the wws and the wights are just tools to be used.And they are tools that change hands if the hand that seeks to wield them is strong.Currently,i would say the Others (*cough* another "Green"seer) may have some score to settle.

I hope that clears up, wolfmaid. Nasty cold you have there. Making all sorts of weird stuff come out of you ;)

I don't think a Dragon has the concept of good or bad,its an animal.Magical yes, but still an animal.Though i will add,i believe they themselves are unatural for the age they are in.The Valyrians should not have awaken them and Dany shouldn't have recieved the eggs.Well atlease two of them should have remained cold stone

I don't think they are morally good or bad, I'm just saying that if you happen to be a carbon based life form, dragons are an unhealthy addition to the environment ;)

I agree with you i don't think the little tree huggers have a lot of agency in this.

:cheers:

They wield Earth after all...

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

Just wanted to add my agreement on the bold above. I'm a big fan of realtime feeds, as you will have noticed if you ever read my thread on Bran's Vision. This interpretation of glass candles seems appropriate given the way they are described in the text.

[Mace Cooterian]

Well, there's Quaithe, who seems to be encouraging Dany to embrace "fire and blood." Something that might turn out to be notable is that, in Quaithe's warning about the various figures heading toward Dany, Maester Marwyn was missing from her list--unless Marwyn is the perfumed seneschal.

Now, this might just mean that Marwyn is either trustworthy, or not worth mentioning, but it could also imply that Marywn and Quaithe have similar goals, or are even working together, especially since Marwyn seems to have visited Asshai before, and also knew MMD.

I'm leaning heavily toward the idea that Quaithe's warning to Dany wasn't a prophecy, but rather real time information she'd gleaned from a Glass Candle, and that she was actually trying to discourage Dany from trusting anyone who might be a rival to Quaithe for influence.

In absence of the like button.... :agree:

[Black Crow]

A couple of interesting suggestions after my bed-time remark last night. I'm not entirely convinced as to who's responsible for what but that's down to a lack of information rather than any particular disagreement. GRRM has of course expressed his dislike of the notion of a dark lord scenario just as his well known remarks on Aragorn are a strong indicator that this isn't going to be settled by a return of the king scenario.

I really therefore don't see the return of magic as being down to Bloodraven or Quaithe or any other individuals seen or unseen. I think that would be rather too simplistic. Instead I'm rather more inclined to see what's going on as magic making and ebbing like a tide, and when it reaches a certain level its possible to wake the dragons and the walkers. I suspect that its knowledge of this that may be enabling different parties to use this magic and not necessarily to destroy the other or rather to fight between Ice and Fire. The magic is, as suggested upthread, a weapon of mass destruction and the real issue facing our characters is not defeating R'hllor or the Great Other or however else the powers are articulated, but to prevent their magic destroying the world.

That in turn means its not a question of destroying magic per se, but rather as the citadel appears to be doing, trying to prevent its being used by suppressing the knowledge of how to use it.

[Black Crow]

I don't think they [dragons] are morally good or bad, I'm just saying that if you happen to be a carbon based life form, dragons are an unhealthy addition to the environment ;)

There's that, and there's also the question of how you define evil. Dragons it appears to me are not evil in the sense that they get their rocks off by deliberately setting out to hurt people, but rather because of a total absence of any moral compass. They don't care. The evil lies in unleashing them.

[TheSmallOther]

That remains to be seen, but perhaps a more interesting question is who is behind the dragons. Danaerys may be a dragonlord but are there other "powers" at work?

I don't have a clear picture in my mind yet, but I hope so. Otherwise it looks like super heavyweight boxer (Others) vs lightweight (Dany and dragons). Of course, Dany may and probably will have support of mankind, but still...

[Black Crow]

Another possibility is that Marwyn will never reach Dany...

It's a tall order to buy into, I agree. The old powers could simply be rising, with or without Dany. But Dany is the Mother of Dragons, and Dragons seem to bring additional powers into the world with them. So, I guess I also wouldn't dismiss the possibility.

I'm reminded of Wisdom Hallyne, Tyrion XI ACOK:

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also"—the alchemist shifted uncomfortably—"certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be . . ."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here by now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells; how splendid. What of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

In other words do the dragons bring the magic or do they come with the magic?