A God-King by Any Other Name: The secret history of three Gemstone Emperors

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

(Many thanks are due to Lucifer Means Lightbringer, Durran Durrandon, Yolkboy and Lady Gwyn from Radio Westeros, and others for helping inspire and sort out this essay.)

As I was working on my analysis of Illyrio as a believer in the Great Empire of the Dawn (link here), I began to wonder about the “missing” gemstone emperors. Three of the most commonly-referenced gemstones in the series—ruby, emerald, and sapphire—have no connection to the gemstone emperors.

Or do they?

What’s in a name? A rose by any other name may smell as sweet…but if you call it by another name than I do, we might not realize that we are talking about the same thing.

I propose that an Emerald Emperor, Ruby Emperor, and Sapphire Emperor did in fact exist, just under different names, and that they are key to understanding many things about certain legends of the Age of Heroes.

***

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and the Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the starts to join his forebears.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries…yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior-known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

****

Emerald

“A thousand tales are told of Garth, in the Reach and beyond. Most are implausible, and many contradictory. In some he is a contemporary of Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, Durran Godsgrief, and the other colorful figures of the Age of Heroes. In others he stands as the ancestor of them all.”

“Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god.”

Here we have ample reason to see Garth the Green as being from a race of god-kings, with supernaturally long life and magical powers. A lot of seemingly contradictory things about Garth can be reconciled if he had a gemstone emperor lifespan; he would have time to come to Westeros, wander, return east and bring back followers, and be the contemporary of his own children.

He also seems to have known about advanced techniques and technologies that the First Men had not yet developed on their own, which makes sense if he came from a more advanced civilization. And, finally, we know he came from the east. I propose that the person known in Westeros as Garth the Green was a someone who would have been considered the Emerald Emperor had he elected to stay in the bounds of the Great Empire of the Dawn. (I’m not sure where he would have come in the lineup. My best guess is that he was the son of the man who later became the Bloodstone Emperor, but that he was born and left for Westeros before the Blood Betrayal.)

We know humans existed outside the purview of the Empire—“wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders”—so it’s not unreasonable to think that at some point a GeoDawnian decided to bring civilization to some of them and set himself up in a new kingdom in unknown lands. Particularly if his gift was spreading fertility, he may have felt that going somewhere wild and new was his calling. But whatever his motive, Garth the Green fits pretty well as a GeoDawnian by description—associated with a color not already included in the gemstone emperor lineup, came from the east, possessed knowledge of civilization beyond what the First Men had previously developed, essentially acted as a god-king.

****

Ruby

Ruby, I think, links pretty naturally to the Bloodstone Emperor. Bloodstone is a real-life element also known as heliotrope, but if you don’t know that and I say “bloodstone” you probably picture something red, like a ruby. I think that the Bloodstone Emperor, had his sister passed on of natural causes, would have ascended the throne as the Ruby Emperor. But he corrupted himself with his dark magic—now picture a ruby corrupted with darkness. The thing you’re probably picturing looks a whole lot like a real-life bloodstone. (Actually real-life heliotrope is very dark green, not true black, but “red corrupted with darkness” is what I’m going for here.) This makes even more sense if you subscribe to the idea that Azor Ahai was the Bloodstone Emperor, trying to right his terrible wrongs (a theory that I will provide some thematic support for later). Azor Ahai is strongly linked with rubies through Melisandre and the Red Priests; a “purified,” repentant version of the Bloodstone Emperor who is associated with rubies makes theBSE an even likelier candidate for the “lost” Ruby Emperor.

In fact, if you look closely at fire-magic gemstone symbolism in ASOIAF, a pattern emerges:

Garnet - false fire (Stannis wears garnets when he threatens Renly with the false Lightbringer; when Tobho Mott suggests garnets to decorate Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper, Tywin complains that they “lack the fire” and insists on rubies.)

Ruby - true fire

Bloodstone - corrupted fire

*****

Sapphire

Now we come to sapphire.

ASOIAF is simply crawling with sapphire and blue-eyed imagery. They’re associated with death, with the Others and wights, with ice magic, with the Stranger—and, interestingly, with Tarth.

I propose that we do know of the Sapphire Emperor, have in fact been hearing about him from the beginning of the story: he is the Great Other.

Also, I think he was known in the Age of Legends as Galladon of Morne.

Here’s how I think it all went down:

The brother of the Amethyst Empress betrayed and murdered her using poison. Amethysts and the color purple are strongly associated with poison and betrayal, Sansa’s hairnet and the Purple Wedding (no, it’s not called that in the books, but there are good reasons fans came up with that name) being the most prominent examples.

Then this brother, who might have been the Ruby Emperor had he not corrupted himself, rose to power as the Bloodstone Emperor.

Tiger’s Eye redux

In the list of the BSE’s many terrible acts, it’s mentioned that he “took a tiger-woman for his bride.” What could this refer to?

Well, in the very first mention we get of Illyrio’s ring’s, back in Arya’s cat-chasing chapter in Game of Thrones, only three precious stones are glimpsed: ruby, sapphire, and tiger’s eye. In my analysis of Illyrio I state that he sees the tiger’s eye as linking to the tiger faction in Volantis, and I still think that, but when I was discussing the gem symbolism with Lucifer Means Lightbringer he naturally connected tiger’s eye with the Children of the Forest, who notably have eyes like cats. This makes a lot of sense: if the deeper meaning of tiger’s eye is the CotF, then in Illyrio’s originally-glimpsed three rings we have represented the three major magical factions of the story: Others, Red Priests, and Children of the Forest.

So if CotF are represented by tiger’s eye in the context of a GeoDawnian cultists’s jewelry…I think it’s quite reasonable to suspect that the “tiger woman” was actually a Child of the Forrest.

We have no indication that gemstone emperors had trouble reproducing—quite the opposite if Garth the Green is an example—so why is there no mention of a child born to the BSE and his CotF bride?

Because that child was really, really, really awful. Stricken-from-the-annals-of-history awful. To use better-know characters for thematic reference: If the BSE was Roose Bolton, then the Sapphire Emperor was Ramsey. Much like Roose, the BSE was a terrible person who nonetheless prized order, “a quiet people and a peaceful kingdom.” He enslaved his people, much as Roose expected his subjects to bend to his every desire (e.g. the right of the First Night), but he wasn’t utterly insane. He founded a still-extant religious order, so he must have valued discipline and been able to set up rules and procedures that could be followed in a sustainable way. Much like Roose, the BSE committed a terrible betrayal to gain power, but he wanted to use that power to actually rule, not to destroy everything in an orgy of chaos.

Then along comes Ramsey, or, in my analogy, the Sapphire Emperor.

He is a batshit crazy mofo. He horrifies even his own evil father, who sends him away from court.

But sending him away from court does not in any way solve the problem. He goes to Westeros, setting up shop on Tarth—the Sapphire Isle—in the place known today as Morne.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The Sapphire Emperor on Tarth

Interestingly, the maesters believe that Morne was originally an Andal settlement. Which is weird, because by the time Tarth joined the Stormlands it had already moved its capital to Evenfall, and that joining happened a few generations before the Andals took over the Stormlands. So chronologically it makes a lot more sense for Morne to be a First Men settlement. The Worldbook does not mention *why* the maesters believe Morne to be Andal in origin. I submit that it is because they went there and found what they believed to be Faith of the Seven iconography—specifically of the Stranger. Andal progress through the Vale is largely tracked by images of seven-pointed stars and Warrior/Smith (axe/hammer) iconography. But how creepy would it be to go into an ancient ruin and find icons, not of the Seven nor just the Warrior or the Smith…but just the Stranger. I would nervously power-walk right back out, saying “it’s Andal, guys! No need for further analysis, let’s just call it Andal and get out of here!”

But it wasn’t Andal. The timeline doesn’t fit—and another hypothesis fits better. The images were of the Stranger, yes, but a creepy-as-hell deity by any other name is just as terrifying. The Stranger is The Great Other is the Sapphire Emperor.

A Perfect Knight

The main thing Morne is remembered for is being the hometown of Ser Galladon of Morne.

This is what Brienne has to say about him:

“Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight.”

“Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.”

Two things are notable here:

First, the appellation Perfect Knight.

1) If GRRM has anything to tell us in this whole series, it’s that there is no such thing as a Perfect Knight. Which really makes you wonder if it’s being used ironically or as some kind of euphemism.

2) Chivalry, we are told repeatedly, did not come until after the Andals. But the Andals came after the Age of Heroes—and the Long Night. A child of Garth the Green is said to have brought chivalry to Westeros; if that’s true it could well have disappeared during the LN and been brought back with the Andals (who themselves were likely influence by GEotD hold outs—the Church of Starry Wisdom). But how did it get there in the Age of Heroes? It must have been a trapping of a more civilized society, which makes sense if Garth was GeoDawnian. He didn’t have a lot of use for highly civilized things beyond agriculture, it seems, but one of his children might logically have wanted to claim something more of the GeoDawnian heritage, i.e. chivalry.

Second: “He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.”

So Ser Galladon didn’t like to overwhelm his weaker opponent right away, but to have a good fight. Not to finish too quickly, what’s the fun in that, but to draw it out, make the opponent feel like he has a fighting chance. Good sport. Who else do we know who likes to be given good sport? Fighting and chasing are different, but the idea of trying to get a weaker opponent to give you good sport is disturbingly similar to Ramsey’s hunting of girls.

And, later: “Honor. The point was honor.”

ASOIAF has a long history of subverting the idea of honor, and specifically of forcing those who believe in honor to confront the ugly truth behind the stories that have led them to believe in it. I think the story of Ser Galladon likely will end up following this theme. Brienne, who has been likened to Sansa in her beginnings as a naive girl who believes in stories, is inspired by local Tarth hero Ser Galladon of Morne. Sansa finds, to her chagrin, that the white knights of the Kingsguard can actually be monstrous. I think Brienne—or, at least, the reader—will later learn that Ser Galladon himself was monstrous.

I also think the name of the Just Maid itself is interesting, as its rare for a sword to be named after a woman. Similarities to Ramsey keep piling up, for he also likes naming things after women. The Maid popping up in the Age of Heroes is suspicious, and since when does the Maid hand out swords? That’s Warrior territory. I think I know who the Maid in this story really stands for, and I have a creeping suspicion that she “lost her heart” in a rather literal manner. More on that later.

Brienne: “He unsheathed her once to slay a dragon, they say.”

Wild dragons during the Age of Heroes is not out of the question by any means. But it’s heavily implied by the Worldbook that the GEotD controlled dragons, since the fused stone Five Forts are most probably attributed to them. And the base of the High Tower on Battle Isle is fused stone as well, so it seems that someone in Westeros pre-Long-Night also had control of dragons. And Ser Galladon was not the only knight to slay them. Serwyn (or Ser Wyn?) of the Mirror Shield—mirrors being reflective, just like the armor of the Others—is another seemingly-anachronistic Age of Heroes knight who slew a dragon. I suspect they were on the same team.

Finally, I think it’s also notable that the current Tarth seat of Evenfall is on the opposite side of the island from Morne—actually south-west while Morne is in the north-east—and has an opposite name. Morning/evening. Almost like the founders of Evenfall were trying to get away from something.

The Sapphire Emperor and descendants of the Emerald Emperor in the Vale and the Fingers

“Ser Clarence Crabb, I said. I got his blood in me. He was eight foot tall, and so strong he could uproot pine trees with one hand and chuck them half a mile. No horse could bear his weight, so he rode an aurochs.”

Compare this to the Worldbook description of Garth the Green’s son, John the Oak: “The First Knight, who brought chivalry to Westeros (a huge man, all agree, eight feet tall in some tales…)”

Both the emphasis on “Ser” as the title of a figure who clearly lived in the Age of Heroes if at all—supposedly a time before knights existed—and the size description fit. John the Oak is said to have founded House Oakheart of Old Oak, but interestingly a place called Ironoak is the seat of house Waynewood in the Vale—rather close to the Fingers, stomping ground of Ser Clarence Crabb. Notably the Worldbook only gives us “some” of the famous children of Garth the Green, who had so many he couldn’t keep them straight. I think Ser Clarence Crabb was one of his children (possibly John the Oak going by another name before he settled down in Old Oak, possibly a different but similar son), and I think he—and Garth himself as well—was slain by the Sapphire Emperor.

“…Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe eight feet tall mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid.”

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Clash of God-Kings

There is a passage in Clash of Kings that has stuck out to me continually since I began researching gemstone symbolism. It is simply crawling with symbolic gemstones yet I was never able to figure out why. It concerns Stannis’s confrontation and attempted parlay with Renly.

Stannis: “As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. Otherwise his dress was plain: studded leather jerkin over quilted doublet, worn boots, breeches of brown roughspun.”

Renly: “The younger Baratheon was splendid in his green velvet doublet and satin cloak trimmed in vair. The crown of golden roses girded his temples, jade stag’s head rising over his forehead, long black hair spilling out beneath. Jagged chunks of black diamond studded his sword belt, and a chain of gold and emeralds looped around his neck.”

Stannis, blue of eye, icy of temperament, dabbler in dark arts, is representing the Stormlands, which contain Tarth the Sapphire Isle and it’s heavy trace of the Sapphire Emperor.

Renly, green of eye, jovial of temperament, is the only non-Lannister in the series associated with emeralds. In this scene he is representing the Reach, home of Garth the Green. Later he teasingly eats a peach. His men are called the Knights of Summer. All of these things, to my mind, strongly recall Garth the Green, lord of a long summer about to end in a Long Night.

And if that isn’t enough Renly/Green God-King imagery, try this: “The candles within Renly’s pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.”

Significantly, Renly is killed by a magic sword—a shadow sword made of black magic.

And, after his death, his magical-castle pavilion burns.

I believe the confrontation between Renly and Stannis is an allegory for the killing of Garth the Green by the Sapphire Emperor/Ser Galladon. And I think the presence of Brienne of Tarth (the Sapphire Isle) in the death scene symbolizes the internal conflict felt by the SE—he loved his (brother? Half-brother? Uncle?) and was on some level horrified by his own action, but his ambition outweighed his conscience and he killed him nonetheless.

And this, the slaying of a fellow GeoDawnian by the Sapphire Emperor, is what really unleashed hell on earth in the form of the Long Night.

But wasn’t that the Blood Betrayal?

The Blood Betrayal of the Bloodstone Emperor led to the Long Night, but from the Worldbook quote it seems like some amount of time passed between the casting down of the Amethyst Empress and the unleashing of the Lion of Night. I mean it takes time to check off that many atrocities. I think some other immediate catalyst besides the betrayal of the Amethyst Empress occurred to bring the Maiden Made of Light to despair. I think it was a continuation of Blood Betrayal, the ravages of the Sapphire Emperor against Garth and his children.

“Tell me, my lord…if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?”

—Roose Bolton

I think Battle Isle was built by the Bloodstone Emperor as he fought to control his son, and it’s also where he realized that nothing in his usual weapons arsenal was going to do the trick. Dragonslayers were abounding in Westeros by this point—Ser Galladon himself, and Ser Wyn of the mirror shield, and likely Others as well.

I also think it’s where he died.

Well, the first time, anyway.

Consider the main characters associated with bringing about or ending the Long Night—characters we actually have a story for and not just a name.

The Bloodstone Emperor (a father)

The Last Hero (a warrior)

Azor Ahai Reborn (a smith)

The male aspects of the Seven reflect the three roles and the three lives of the BSE.

Three lives?

The Bloodstone Emperor is explicitly said to have practiced necromancy, so likely his loyal followers did as well.

We don’t know the end of the Last Hero’s story, but it sounds pretty damn dire. I would be more surprised if he lives through his trek than if he doesn’t. Valar Morghulis.

So I think Azor Ahai Reborn does not actually mean “the second coming of Azor Ahai.” I think “reborn” is part of the original title. (Good god, GeoDawnians collect a lot of titles. Dany clearly comes by that habit honestly.) Dying and being brought back to life is an essential characteristic of being Azor Ahai. This is why the idea of resurrection plays such a large role in the religion of R’hllor—ceremonially attempting to revive the corpse is even part of the standard death rites, according to Thoros of Myr.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Forging of a Magic Sword—Why?

Something that’s always bugged me about the forging of Lightbringer is…what good is one sword, ultimately, however magical it is, when your world is being overrun by ice zombies and ice spiders big as hounds? Did Azor Ahai personally kill all of them? Does the flaming sword convert into a massive flamethrower or something?

So I’ve mostly assumed that Lightbringer was a metaphor—for the creation or taming of dragons, for the Night’s Watch, for something much bigger than one sword.

But we are presented in the text of Game of Thrones, in early chapters, with references to literal swords that seem very special: Dawn and Ice. Dawn is thousands of years old and glows “white as milk glass.” The Valeryian steel sword Ice is not the original but a replacement for the real Ice, which apparently was also thousands of years old. We have no description of it, but…I mean, it’s called Ice.

So, two swords that look like ice—specifically like the icy swords of the Others. Two literal swords.

Which brings me back to my years-old question, what good is one sword against the Others?

It only makes sense if, in order to defeat the Others, you actually just have to defeat The Great Other.

The Great Other is likely not a mortal man, since you need a special sword to kill him. I’m proposing that he was the Sapphire Emperor, and that he killed other GeoDawnians with his own magic sword Just Maid, later known as Ice when he became master of ice magic and the Others.

I think the original Ice was the sword of the Great Other, taken from him after his defeat at present-day Winterfell and left in the care of the newly founded Stark family, who were chosen for their special blend of GeoDawnian and CotF blood.

And I think Dawn is Lightbringer, left in the care of the newly founded Dayne family after they followed their mortally wounded, fiery savior Azor Ahai Reborn (figuratively a “falling star”) to the site of present-day Starfall.

Both of these swords are special in various ways, but their primary quality is that they are the only weapons that can kill a GeoDawnian.

(Besides poison, as the Amethyst Empress seems to demonstrate. But it’s hard to poison someone who knows you are an enemy.)

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Forging of a Magic Sword—How?

Upon realizing that his regular weapons wouldn’t work, and dying and being resurrected, BSE in his second life as the Last Hero went to his wife’s people, the Children of the Forest, for ideas. And they told him what to do.

Long story short: CotF blood is necessary for the forging of a magic sword.

Which perhaps lends a little insight into the identity of the Maid who gave a sword to Galladon/SE:

The Maiden dances through the sky,

she lives in every lover's sigh.

Her smiles teach the birds to fly,

and gives dreams to little children.[5]

”

– The Song of the Seven

Dances through the sky—the starry wanderer called The Maid.

Lives in every lovers sigh—love goddess, Venus, the morning star—I think she loved the Sapphire Emperor.

Teaches birds to fly—hm, sounds like a Greenseer reference.

Gives dreams—also a Greenseer ability.

So it sounds like the Maid who gave a sword to Galladon was in fact a Child of the Forrest greenseer, who was later identified with the morning star and as one of the Seven. I think it was her heart that tempered Just Maid, later known as Ice.

This in turn gives us some insight into Brandon of the Bloody Blade. If the SE/GO killed Garth the Green with a CotF-tempered blade, Garth’s son might logically try to make his own magic sword to avenge his father. Kind of sounds like it didn’t work, though not for want of trying.

It seems like there are two keys to tempering a magic sword: CotF blood, and love. Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor Reformed, tempered light bringer in the heart of his beloved wife Nissa Nissa—the tiger woman, his Child of the Forest bride.

This makes a very convincing case for Starks having CotF blood, and for that blood giving them their essential Stark-ness. The warging, the green seeing—the ability of Lyanna to bring forth a wielder of Lightbringer.

And since the greenseer maid who tempered Just Maid became identified as one of the Seven, I do wonder if Nissa Nissa isn’t the Mother. I even wonder if she didn’t marry the Bloodstone Emperor as part of the Pact between the Children and the First Men (led by Garth the Emerald Emperor, possibly the son of the BSE by a previous marriage.)

The Mother gives the gift of life, - gave birth to the Sapphire Emperor

and watches over every wife. - Perhaps she spied on her people—she did marry an evil emperor, after all—and/or did she have green seer abilities herself?

Her gentle smile ends all strife, - Long Night definitely counted as strife

and she loves her little children - For me this calls to mind Cercei, whose love for her monstrous son Joffrey may parallel Nissa Nissa’s love for the Sapphire Emperor.

—Song of the Seven

I suspect the Crone represents an elderly CotF, likely the one who told the Last Hero how to forge a sword and become Azor Ahai Reborn. To keep it all in the family, I’m going to propose that she was the mother of Nissa Nissa.

The Crone is very wise and old, - Children of the Forest live long lives.

and sees our fates as they unfold. - Reference to Greenseer ability?

She lifts her lamp of shining gold - Reference to the golden eyes of the CotF, with their night vision?

to lead the little children. - She may also have rallied the Children of the Forest to fight the Great Other, her grandson.

—Song of the Seven

If you’re willing to buy all (or at least significant portions) of the above, then you can see how the old gods and the new and R’hllor and the Great Other are all part of the same story, and even the same family. A really messed-up family. Hey, I think I remember another author who loved writing about messed up families….

“I've always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing.”

—George RR Martin

If my meta-theory is true, then every single plot point in A Song of Ice and Fire hinges on human drama, conflict within people and their families, even when the dramatis personae are not human per se. I think that’s my favorite part about it, and the main reason I actually believe my own crazed ramblings.

Thanks for following me down the rabbit hole.

[SolomonBlack]

Alternately of course there is no such secret gem code and the fact that many references do NOT fit are the proof that there's no particular significance to gems showing up anywhere, match the legendary emperors or otherwise.

Its not pattern if you need to speculate explanations for holes... it just means there wasn't a pattern to begin with.

There just happen to be some legendary figures in Yi Ti with a gem motif to elevate them over the more mundane historical emperors color dynasties. And since its a Long Night legend some thematic echoes of current events, proximity maybe making them related to Azor Ahai.

[LmL]

Alternately of course there is no such secret gem code and the fact that many references do NOT fit are the proof that there's no particular significance to gems showing up anywhere, match the legendary emperors or otherwise.

Its not pattern if you need to speculate explanations for holes... it just means there wasn't a pattern to begin with.

There just happen to be some legendary figures in Yi Ti with a gem motif to elevate them over the more mundane historical emperors color dynasties. And since its a Long Night legend some thematic echoes of current events, proximity maybe making them related to Azor Ahai.

Thanks, we never would have considered that - what an amazing idea. It might be coincidence! Man, I'm just gob-smacked. It was staring us right there in the face the whole time!

[SolomonBlack]

Thanks, we never would have considered that - what an amazing idea. It might be coincidence! Man, I'm just gob-smacked. It was staring us right there in the face the whole time!

You need counter-programming lest the preacher speak only to the choir.

[LmL]

So, how many times do you think you need to tell everyone all of the eastern stuff is coincidence and none of it can be solved? I mean it kind of sounds the same every time you say it. We know - it might be coincidence. Anything else to add?

Or are you just into dismissing things without addressing any of the points made? It conveys a lack of respect for the OP, but whatever. Someone has to be the coincidence police, I guess (or not).

[LmL]

Wow BlindBeth, that's truly a lot to digest. There definitely are many people who see fire and ice magic as two manifestations of the same thing. Rubies and sapphires are actually the same thing, with slight mineral variations, someone pointed out on a thread. There are a lot of seeming parallels between Melisandre and what we know of the Night's Queen, and then there's this theory that the Starks and Others came from these shadow magicians from Asshai, which has some similar ideas. Both shadow binders and Others fear to show themselves in the sun, and both seem to be a type of shadow.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Alternately of course there is no such secret gem code and the fact that many references do NOT fit are the proof that there's no particular significance to gems showing up anywhere, match the legendary emperors or otherwise.

Its not pattern if you need to speculate explanations for holes... it just means there wasn't a pattern to begin with.

There just happen to be some legendary figures in Yi Ti with a gem motif to elevate them over the more mundane historical emperors color dynasties. And since its a Long Night legend some thematic echoes of current events, proximity maybe making them related to Azor Ahai.

Lol, of course. But what's the fun in that?

[LmL]

Lol, of course. But what's the fun in that?

None. No fun allowed. Everyone just stop writing theories, Solomon doesn't like it. He thinks its all coincidence, so everyone should just stop. We're wasting out time, and I think kittens are dying somewhere too because of us. :crying:

[LmL]

Just remember:

ONLY THOSE WHO LEARN TO WALK THE PATTERNMAKER'S MAZE PROPERLY WILL EVER FIND THEIR WAY TO WISDOM, THE PRIESTS OF THE PATTERN SAY.

Who do you think the Patternmaker is? ;)

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Wow BlindBeth, that's truly a lot to digest. There definitely are many people who see fire and ice magic as two manifestations of the same thing. Rubies and sapphires are actually the same thing, with slight mineral variations, someone pointed out on a thread. There are a lot of seeming parallels between Melisandre and what we know of the Night's Queen, and then there's this theory that the Starks and Others came from these shadow magicians from Asshai, which has some similar ideas. Both shadow binders and Others fear to show themselves in the sun, and both seem to be a type of shadow.

Ha, yeah, it's a lot. I probably should have staggered it more from the other one but I was getting ancy. No rush in reading/mulling. And thanks for posting those links, both very relevant. I especially like the Mel/Night's Queen parallel.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just remember:

ONLY THOSE WHO LEARN TO WALK THE PATTERNMAKER'S MAZE PROPERLY WILL EVER FIND THEIR WAY TO WISDOM, THE PRIESTS OF THE PATTERN SAY.

Who do you think the Patternmaker is? ;)

With GRRM all things are possible. :-P

[SolomonBlack]

Lol, of course. But what's the fun in that?

Back in Westeros solving the secrets of all the food porn obviously.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Fair enough. :-P

[LmL]

Back in Westeros solving the secrets of all the food porn obviously.

Lol, well I'm glad you believe in SOMETHING, Solomon. Maybe you're okay after all. :)

I myself have not tried to crack any of the food porn apart from a couple pomegranate / Persephone connections and splitting wormy apples in half as a metaphor for splitting comets ("cut a worm in half, you get two worms")

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

A tiger's pupils tend to be more rounded than smaller cats.

[LmL]

A tiger's pupils tend to be more rounded than smaller cats.

Tiger's Eyes are really triply, Inever took a good look. You're right, they are rounded, strangely human except yellow. In fact, they look an awful lot like my avatar...

http://previews.123rf.com/images/anankkml/anankkml1208/anankkml120800007/14677586-close-up-of-tiger-eye-Stock-Photo.jpg