A God-King by Any Other Name: The secret history of three Gemstone Emperors

[Free Northman Reborn]

Martin believes in having mysterious lands and weird nations with fantastic histories on the periphery of his world. And the farther away a nation is, the weirder the stories become.

"Here be Dragons" effectively.

It is a literary device.

Secondly, Martin loves homages to the sci-fi and fantasy authors he grew up reading and admiring. Combining these two factors, gives us the fantastic stories from faraway lands in his world, with vaguely familiar names and histories, including references to Deep Ones, Hyrkoon, Stygai, God-Emperors, Golden Empires, Winged Men etc. etc.

Combine Edgar Rice Burroughs with Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft and a dozen other great authors in this field, and you have the source of Martin's faraway lands in his World of Ice and Fire.

Ashhaii is pretty much the really unique aspect here, and it is no coincidence that it is mentioned in the main series as well, and linked to the origin of dragons multiple times.

The rest - Great Empires, Yi-ti, Opal, Gold, Platinum, Uranium and whatnot Emperors, well, they're just background noise, giving some life to the world.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Martin believes in having mysterious lands and weird nations with fantastic histories on the periphery of his world. And the farther away a nation is, the weirder the stories become.

"Here be Dragons" effectively.

It is a literary device.

Secondly, Martin loves homages to the sci-fi and fantasy authors he grew up reading and admiring. Combining these two factors, gives us the fantastic stories from faraway lands in his world, with vaguely familiar names and histories, including references to Deep Ones, Hyrkoon, Stygai, God-Emperors, Golden Empires, Winged Men etc. etc.

Combine Edgar Rice Burroughs with Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft and a dozen other great authors in this field, and you have the source of Martin's faraway lands in his World of Ice and Fire.

Ashhaii is pretty much the really unique aspect here, and it is no coincidence that it is mentioned in the main series as well, and linked to the origin of dragons multiple times.

The rest - Great Empires, Yi-ti, Opal, Gold, Platinum, Uranium and whatnot Emperors, well, they're just background noise, giving some life to the world.

You don't know that, though.

Why spend so much time on something that had no relevance to the story?

Why are there so freaking many sapphire references, many of which are clearly related? Why do we have a whole plot sequence raising the question of why Tarth is called the Sapphire Isle, especially when sapphire is such a loaded symbol?

What is a perfect knight doing in a story with no perfect knights?

Who are the Seven? What is their backstory? Deities always have backstories, why not the Seven? Why do the Maiden, Mother, and Crone all apparently have greenseer abilities?

Why have contemporary color-coded god-kings if they aren't connected?

Why do legendary knights have Others characteristics?

Why do the Warrior's Sons have a sigil of an icy sword?

Why did the Children of the Forest know how to kill Others, yet not do it? Why did the Last Hero/Azor Ahai have to do it--and why did he need special knowledge in the first place?

My hypothesis can answer all of these questions. Can you?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

A tiger's pupils tend to be more rounded than smaller cats.

So...that invalidates all of the symbolism of yellow/golden eyes and earth magic?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Martin believes in having mysterious lands and weird nations with fantastic histories on the periphery of his world. And the farther away a nation is, the weirder the stories become.

"Here be Dragons" effectively.

It is a literary device.

Secondly, Martin loves homages to the sci-fi and fantasy authors he grew up reading and admiring. Combining these two factors, gives us the fantastic stories from faraway lands in his world, with vaguely familiar names and histories, including references to Deep Ones, Hyrkoon, Stygai, God-Emperors, Golden Empires, Winged Men etc. etc.

Combine Edgar Rice Burroughs with Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft and a dozen other great authors in this field, and you have the source of Martin's faraway lands in his World of Ice and Fire.

Ashhaii is pretty much the really unique aspect here, and it is no coincidence that it is mentioned in the main series as well, and linked to the origin of dragons multiple times.

The rest - Great Empires, Yi-ti, Opal, Gold, Platinum, Uranium and whatnot Emperors, well, they're just background noise, giving some life to the world.

Also, I have quote of Martin himself saying that he writes about human conflict. Do you have an SSM of him saying "except when I just spend hours and hours writing about totally unrelated random monster references, just for the hell of it"?

Just because the names reference Lovercraft etc. doesn't mean there isn't more to it. Did you dismiss Samwell because his name is clearly a LOTR reference?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Sadly, many of the answers have more mundane answers than many people would prefer. The Saphire Isle was likely created entirely to facilitate Jaime's subterfuge in preventing Brienne's rape when claiming her father had lots of saphires.

The Children are a million years old, and probably predate every other sentient race on the planet. They know the origins of the Others. Why they didn't kill them - well, that needs to be revealed.

The Seven are a fantasy equivalent of Christianity, but instead of a Trinity, the twist is to change it to a Septrinity, or whatever the correct term for a seven sided thing is.

There is a nice example of the mundane nature of a lot of Martin's meanings in his great weakness for alliteration, for instance. Many names or descriptions might look like they have deeper meaning, while the reality is that Martin just looked for good sounding alliteration in as many names as possible. His alliteration is absolutely over the top.

Barristan the Bold

Brandon of the Bloody Knife

Brandon the Burner

Brandon the Builder

Garth Greenhand

Roddy the Ruin

The Wandering Wolf

Lomas Longstrider

Widows Wail

Azor Ahai

High Heart

Fist of the Firstmen

Weeping Water

Dance of the Dragons

HardHome

Battle of the Blackwater

War over the Waters

Whispering Wood

Defiance of Duskendale

Baelor Breakspear

I am not even touching the surface here. There are 10 more examples for every one I typed out off the top of my head here. The point is, if I wanted to, I could too try to tie every example of alliteration into some deep, underlying pattern to show how it signifies something more. I could spend hours, days doing that.

And meanwhile I would be totally missing the boat, because the real reason is that Martin just has a massive thing for alliteration. He likes how it sounds. There is nothing more to it than that.

The same applies to Opals, Sapphires, Rubies, Amethysts and who knows what other stones are mentioned through the course of the text.

[Waiting for Howland]

Well personally I think this theory has some basis because civilization has to have some central beginning, with a central beginning. Throw in a global catastrophe, ur bound to have multiple retellings of the story as people relocate. As civilizations expand and split, each molds the stories. And in a part of the world were civs rise and fall quite regularly, u get a broken telephone to the point where the stories become so fantastical that humans using magic become god kings. In Westeros though u have a people that have been there for so long that their story can stay more consistent and be more reliable. So far we know little of their story other than the more fantastical first men retellings. BUT that doesnt mean the eastern wildly extravagent retellings shouldnt be dismissed.

And George the history buff has to know this and since his whole thing is perspective its quite obvious there are connections that can HELP bridge the gaps in our knowledge, and history repeats itself. Sorry if this post is redundant lol

[Free Northman Reborn]

The idea I'm toying with is that the Five Forts weren't Forts at all. They were monumental, stationary Arks.

At 10,000 men each, they could House 50,000 people altogether. So maybe they were constructed by the Ashaii sorcerors to house people during the Long Night, while the rest of the World mostly died out.

So when the Long Night ended, the survivors poured from these Forts and found the rest of Essos basically devoid of humans. And they then spread out to the most fertile areas to repopulate it again.

Slavers Bay which was nice and warm and more forested back then than the wasteland it is in the present day, was where one group founded Old Ghis.

The Silver Sea was where another group founded Sarnor.

Yi Ti was the closest to these 5 Forts, and a lot of people settled right there, hence the large population of that civilization.

Mother Rhoyne welcomed the Rhoynar. And so forth. Inbetween these points of civilization, you had ragged, nomadic bands of barbarian survivors who had not been preserved within the Five Forts, but had somehow made it through the Long Night in tiny, isolated groups, and they were the founders of more barbaric nations like the Andals.

The odd case being Valyria, where the heat of the volcanos had allowed the primitive shepherds to continue their simple way of life largely untouched during the Long Night, but at the same time without spurring them to achieve any advances in technology for many millennia, until they mastered dragons 5000 years ago.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Sadly, many of the answers have more mundane answers than many people would prefer. The Saphire Isle was likely created entirely to facilitate Jaime's subterfuge in preventing Brienne's rape when claiming her father had lots of saphires.

The Children are a million years old, and probably predate every other sentient race on the planet. They know the origins of the Others. Why they didn't kill them - well, that needs to be revealed.

The Seven are a fantasy equivalent of Christianity, but instead of a Trinity, the twist is to change it to a Septrinity, or whatever the correct term for a seven sided thing is.

There is a nice example of the mundane nature of a lot of Martin's meanings in his great weakness for alliteration, for instance. Many names or descriptions might look like they have deeper meaning, while the reality is that Martin just looked for good sounding alliteration in as many names as possible. His alliteration is absolutely over the top.

Barristan the Bold

Brandon of the Bloody Knife

Brandon the Burner

Brandon the Builder

Garth Greenhand

Roddy the Ruin

The Wandering Wolf

Lomas Longstrider

Widows Wail

Azor Ahai

High Heart

Fist of the Firstmen

Weeping Water

Dance of the Dragons

HardHome

Battle of the Blackwater

War over the Waters

Whispering Wood

Defiance of Duskendale

Baelor Breakspear

I am not even touching the surface here. There are 10 more examples for every one I typed out off the top of my head here. The point is, if I wanted to, I could too try to tie every example of alliteration into some deep, underlying pattern to show how it signifies something more. I could spend hours, days doing that.

And meanwhile I would be totally missing the boat, because the real reason is that Martin just has a massive thing for alliteration. He likes how it sounds. There is nothing more to it than that.

The same applies to Opals, Sapphires, Rubies, Amethysts and who knows what other stones are mentioned through the course of the text.

This isn't really relevant because I'm not trying to find significance in alliteration. I also agree with you that GRRM likes the sound of it (as do I). I also think it makes the bazillion names he throws at us easier to remember. That's why I didn't write a lengthy essay trying to explain the hidden meaning of alliteration.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Well personally I think this theory has some basis because civilization has to have some central beginning, with a central beginning. Throw in a global catastrophe, ur bound to have multiple retellings of the story as people relocate. As civilizations expand and split, each molds the stories. And in a part of the world were civs rise and fall quite regularly, u get a broken telephone to the point where the stories become so fantastical that humans using magic become god kings. In Westeros though u have a people that have been there for so long that their story can stay more consistent and be more reliable. So far we know little of their story other than the more fantastical first men retellings. BUT that doesnt mean the eastern wildly extravagent retellings shouldnt be dismissed.

And George the history buff has to know this and since his whole thing is perspective its quite obvious there are connections that can HELP bridge the gaps in our knowledge, and history repeats itself. Sorry if this post is redundant lol

Thanks for the support. :-)

[LmL]

One I noticed recently - the Rhoynar have a story about the long night, which means some sort of ancestor of theirs was alive at the time of the long night. This means they basically had a 8000 year unbroken culture and so they were destroyed 1200 years ago. That in and of itself is pretty damn amazing.

As for the Worldbook... I mean we say it again and again, but anyone who thinks certain writings of George are somehow less relevant is pulling that assumption directly out of their ass, and nowhere else. YOU CANNOT KNOW or even prove that something is definitely empty backstory. That is your own personal bias projected on the story.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, because this is not a personal issue. This is directed to everyone (maybe 10-20% of forum people) who seems to think they can decide which of the authors works is relevant to even be discussed on a fan forum dedicated to theorizing and speculation.

I have love for everyone on the forum, we're all fans of ASOIAF. We're a big, strange family of a sort. All of us, even the miserable RLJ deniers. But it is just so bonkers to see people running around as if George R. R. Martin sent them a personal email that says "hey don't worry about scrutinizing all that eastern stuff, I was just jerking myself off and it's all bullshit."

My position is that ANYTHING written by Martin in-world is fair game for scrutiny and discussion. Anyone who has a different position bears the burden of proof on them to show everyone else why certain sets of thousands of words written by the author are relevant and others are not.

I hope we can just get back to discussing the OP. If you don't like theories that involve the Worldbook and plan on dismissing any theories involving far eastern material, seriously, there are other threads out there. Let's respect the OP and address the points made.

[Free Northman Reborn]

LML

What cannot be seriously entertained, however, is that the final plot climax of the main series will require knowledge from the World Book for it to make sense.

Hence, you can be pretty sure that the final outcome will be something that makes sense based on clues that occur solely in the main series itself. The World Book is not a requirement for a full understanding of the main plot.

Hence, without even a single reference to a Great Empire of the Dawn in the main series, I think it is a safe bet that it has no major relevance to the conclusion of the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Seriously people. Drop this "Great Empire of the Dawn" fanaticism.

I love world-building more than anyone but this is just...delusional.

[LmL]

I really do love everyone and want everybody to come have hot sweaty GeoDawnian brainsex with the rest of us. Ain't no party like a shadow-binder party cause a shadow-binder party don't staaahhhp... Knowwhaddamean?

[LmL]

Seriously people. Drop this "Great Empire of the Dawn" fanaticism.

I love world-building more than anyone but this is just...delusional.

You do realize you don't have to read it right? It's actually not hurting you for other people to have different ideas than you. ;)

[LmL]

LML

What cannot be seriously entertained, however, is that the final plot climax of the main series will require knowledge from the World Book for it to make sense.

Hence, you can be pretty sure that the final outcome will be something that makes sense based on clues that occur solely in the main series itself. The World Book is not a requirement for a full understanding of the main plot.

Hence, without even a single reference to a Great Empire of the Dawn in the main series, I think it is a safe bet that it has no major relevance to the conclusion of the Song of Ice and Fire.

I agree that knowledge of the deep backstory will not be "necessary" to get most of the story - although I kind of object to the word "necessary" when applied to art. And what exactly is a "full understanding?" I mean, do you need to know RLJ to get a "full understanding?" Can someone read ASOAIF, never have RLJ occur to them, and still enjoy the story? Absolutely.

But that isn't why we are here, is it? We are here to delve deeply into his world building, trying to solve the hidden puzzles George has so cleverly laid out for us. World building is almost never "essential" to the story, but it always adds to the understanding of the story. So I'm not sure how you are using the word "full" in this case. TWOAIF is world building, but it's no more or less relevant than the worldbuilding in the main series. Martin wrote it, we ARE supposed to read it. If you don't read it, there will be things in the main story you know far less about. Reading TWOAIF will give a more full understanding. That seems clear as well.

Let me state this: I do not necessarily think we will hear anyone utter the phrase "Great Empire of the Dawn" in the main series. Their importance is that they are the ancient Asshai dragonlords. Even if you do not buy my connection between GEotD and Asshai - although to dismiss my work here you need to address my evidence - we are really all discussing the ancient dragonlords. They were mentioned in book one, as was Asshai - a LOT. Asshai has always been central to the story, especially Dany's. Learning more about Asshai will inform us about what people like Quaithe and Marwyn and Illyrio may have in mind for Dany. Learning about Asshai will show us what it may mean for Dany or Jon to take up any part of Azor Ahai's mantle. It teaches about the nature of fire and shadow magic.

All of this is relevant, but not "necessary" to "understand" the ending, sure, but as we all know, George Martin writes on multiple levels. I have no doubt the surface level will be easy enough to comprehend, but the deeper stuff only reveals itself for people who want to look for it. And to that end, George has LOADED TWOAIF with secrets. By way of example:

The story of Lo Bu is the story of the Last Hero, in metaphor. Go read it. See for yourself. I don't want to give it away and ruin the fun. But go read and see what you see.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The idea I'm toying with is that the Five Forts weren't Forts at all. They were monumental, stationary Arks.

At 10,000 men each, they could House 50,000 people altogether. So maybe they were constructed by the Ashaii sorcerors to house people during the Long Night, while the rest of the World mostly died out.

So when the Long Night ended, the survivors poured from these Forts and found the rest of Essos basically devoid of humans. And they then spread out to the most fertile areas to repopulate it again.

Slavers Bay which was nice and warm and more forested back then than the wasteland it is in the present day, was where one group founded Old Ghis.

The Silver Sea was where another group founded Sarnor.

Yi Ti was the closest to these 5 Forts, and a lot of people settled right there, hence the large population of that civilization.

Mother Rhoyne welcomed the Rhoynar. And so forth. Inbetween these points of civilization, you had ragged, nomadic bands of barbarian survivors who had not been preserved within the Five Forts, but had somehow made it through the Long Night in tiny, isolated groups, and they were the founders of more barbaric nations like the Andals.

The odd case being Valyria, where the heat of the volcanos had allowed the primitive shepherds to continue their simple way of life largely untouched during the Long Night, but at the same time without spurring them to achieve any advances in technology for many millennia, until they mastered dragons 5000 years ago.

That's a really intriguing notion. My only opinions about the Five Forts is that they were made by the GEotD using dragon magic, so I'm not opposed to this viewpoint at all.

The "arks" thing does make a lot of sense. Those things are huge. The size would make them difficult to man, but ideal for sheltering large numbers of people.

Thing is, 50,000 people is a lot to put indoors, but hardly any at all to repopulate a world. It's barely enough to count as a city in modern times. I could buy that these survivors founded Yi Ti--that could be why more lore is preserved in Yi Ti--but I don't think they could have actually repopulated the whole world.

I actually have a notion that the local heroes--Hyrkoon, Eldric Shadowchaser, the woman with the monkey's tail--were not really all one person, nor were they other names for Azor Ahai. Azor Ahai ended the Long Night, but local heroes were necessary to keep some semblance of civilization together.

The Five Forts as arks could definitely fit as the Yi Ti portion of the "local hero" idea.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

LML

What cannot be seriously entertained, however, is that the final plot climax of the main series will require knowledge from the World Book for it to make sense.

Hence, you can be pretty sure that the final outcome will be something that makes sense based on clues that occur solely in the main series itself. The World Book is not a requirement for a full understanding of the main plot.

Hence, without even a single reference to a Great Empire of the Dawn in the main series, I think it is a safe bet that it has no major relevance to the conclusion of the Song of Ice and Fire.

I don't think that. I think the book climax will make sense on its own, but the Worldbook stuff can give us a deeper understanding. And honestly the main thing I'm doing on this post is using book stuff to explain the Worldbook, not vice-versa.

Seriously people. Drop this "Great Empire of the Dawn" fanaticism.

I love world-building more than anyone but this is just...delusional.

...hm...

[LmL]

Well personally I think this theory has some basis because civilization has to have some central beginning, with a central beginning. Throw in a global catastrophe, ur bound to have multiple retellings of the story as people relocate. As civilizations expand and split, each molds the stories. And in a part of the world were civs rise and fall quite regularly, u get a broken telephone to the point where the stories become so fantastical that humans using magic become god kings. In Westeros though u have a people that have been there for so long that their story can stay more consistent and be more reliable. So far we know little of their story other than the more fantastical first men retellings. BUT that doesnt mean the eastern wildly extravagent retellings shouldnt be dismissed.

And George the history buff has to know this and since his whole thing is perspective its quite obvious there are connections that can HELP bridge the gaps in our knowledge, and history repeats itself. Sorry if this post is redundant lol

No, this post is right on point. Exactly on point. I typed this in my most recent essay, a very similar sentiment:

I’ve looked into this enough to feel fairly confident that George does intend the GEotD to be seen as an Atlantis-type culture - an advanced civilization which was destroyed in a cataclysm but managed to leave traces of their knowledge and culture in various places around the world. In other words, I do think he has written a GEotD influence into the myths of certain cultures that we can go sniffing around for.

As I dig through the backstory of ASOIAF, both in the Worldbook and in the series proper (and don’t forget D&E), I am struck by the feeling that George has a good working understanding of cultural dispersal as it occurs in the real world, and has generally put some thought and effort into depicting a realistic evolution of culture and religion in all of his nations and peoples. Lesser authors may have approached something like The World of Ice and Fire as a fun little project, and opportunity to pen a couple of entertaining world-building stories, but these would be two dimensional, like a painting of a ship at sea, hanging on a wall. George’s pictures of ships at sea turn out to be the Narnia type, the ones which actually transport you to the ship, in the middle of the storm, on a great voyage that actually leads to real places. In other words, these backstories all seem to connect and hold up (so far) to intense scrutiny - this is no house of mirrors.

[Equilibrium]

Magnificent

Human (GeoDawnian) origin of the Other see LmL I told you so :D Thanks Beth, it's good to have support.

I think Galladon of Morne (SE) is actually Serwyn of Mirror Shield, it makes more sense with Serwyn's blue eyes

And BSE isn't reborn or anything, Ruby Emp is his third son, plain and simple. Dragon has three head, Trident splits into three forks Red, Blue and Green, etc. Everything comes in threes and in red/blue/green, Garth is earth and balance, Galladon, SE, is ice and Ruby one (proto-Dayne) was fire. Proto-Dayne is the sone of BSE and AE, result of incest and rape, when BSE cast AE down and usurped her rule, incest - blood betrayal (thanks Modesty).

Renly/Stannis scene points more to BSE killing Garth, his son.

How would I see the events in that case. After BSE killed Garth, his other sons united against him, and that is how sacrifice of Garth led to end of LN, Galladon in fact forged ice sword which is Dawn (bright, light emitting ice)maybe with help from his mothers people. It parallels NK story, both sides of the wall united against deprived king. Proto-Dayne took BSE's sword Lightbringer (dark fire) and somehow it got named Ice later (LmL wrote on why is Ice in fact original LB). Bros killed BSE and made a pact to end active conflict and restore some balance, they either intermarried their children or both married their child to one of Garth's, creating House Stark in the North to check ice side with LB (fire sword) and House Dayne in the South to check fire side with Ice sword. That is why Starks are not Valyrian looking because their ancestor was half COTF and possibly has undergone some transformation in Great Other, and if Garth's child is other part of the founding couple they maybe got one with the dark hair. While Dayne ancestor was son of BSE and AE, so they got the looks.

I think this is the first time we managed to make sense of everything at once, whole thing, Daynes, Starks, Others, Pact between Ice and Fire, Garth, BSE, AA, LB, NK, GK, LH and whole bunch of other acronyms, thank you Beth you get all the credit.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Wow, Equilibrium, you have given me some things to chew over. I still think brother-killing is a stronger extant theme in the story than father-killing, but I will need to mull the possibilities here.