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A God-King by Any Other Name: The secret history of three Gemstone Emperors


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Wow, Equilibrium, you have given me some things to chew over. I still think brother-killing is a stronger extant theme in the story than father-killing, but I will need to mull the possibilities here.

There was another path I thought about but it has weaker connection with Renly/Stannis.

Three brothers see destruction BSE has brought upon the world and join to stop him (this time Garth is with brothers and it's not his death but overall destruction that made them unite) when BSE is defeated Garth is sacrificed to return the life to earth, like sacrificial Corn King. There still can be parallels with Renly/Stannis, Stannis is unwilling but he knows sacrifice is for the greater good. Also Proto-Dayne could be the one sacrificing, he has BSE's shadow fire sword and Sapphire Emperor stand and watches (like Brienne). Everything else stays as I have say previously.

Actually this version is far better

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*Sigh*

You don't know that, though.

Why spend so much time on something that had no relevance to the story?


They did no such thing.

And I can prove it. The section "Beyond the Sunset Kindoms" starts on page 251 of a 326 page book, that is 3/4 done and Yi Ti only 3-ish pages and the GEotD a bit under half a page but I'll sport it the spare text.

That's .5/326 = 0.15% of the book not even 1%. And that's the sole material dealing with it.

Dare to compare that to any of the treatments of the seven eight kingdoms of Westeros or their general history at the front of the book. I do not see in what universe that becomes spending so much time on something. Even Yi Ti does not meet that standard.

What does meet that standard? Well examples in the book would include things like all the material on Tywin Lannister which explains that when Kevan talked about his brother suffering "insults uncounted" was not exaggeration. The tale of the Tywin Lannisters both from the events of in the Westerlands Tywin was born into and his relationship with Aerys add tremendously to understanding a major character. Something we'd not likely have seen in the main series without breaking the narrative.

Why are there so freaking many sapphire references, many of which are clearly related? Why do we have a whole plot sequence raising the question of why Tarth is called the Sapphire Isle, especially when sapphire is such a loaded symbol?

Why are there any gem references? Well because Martin clearly has a thing for rich description and detail and gems are something you expect with certain gorgeous period dress.

Let me put this another way... show me the ten other works by other authors in text where every single bit of description was significant. Establishing that in indeed there is a reasonable expectation that the curtains are not blue.

And that's just for regular old symbolism, not secret plot hints to the ancient alien freemason conspiracy. Get me five that do that too. Not written by Dan Brown.

What is a perfect knight doing in a story with no perfect knights?


The same thing all Sansa's songs are doing to set up an expectation of chivalric romance within the text and for characters in universe... and then have the reality in the story pull down its hose and shit all over it.

Its how deconstruction works, ASoIaF is thematically (among other things) an extra grim Watchmen for King Arthur. It needs "perfect knights" so it can show off what a foolish fantasy they are.

Who are the Seven? What is their backstory? Deities always have backstories, why not the Seven? Why do the Maiden, Mother, and Crone all apparently have greenseer abilities?


Mother, Maiden, Crone... its called the Triple Goddess or the Three Faces of Eve.
Martin has constructed a male equivalent in the Father, Warrior, Smith.
And of course the Stranger is death.

Each incarnating some well established deity memes, its a literary pantheon in the truest sense.

The Seven do have stories of sorts despite most of us readers I expect considering them not fake, that's what The Seven Pointed Star is. I'd dispute that we have much more background on so many of the other deities in Planetos though, except if the old gods of the North were always 'just' the greenseers looking through trees and not terribly deistic at all. Even R'hllor who arguably seems to have power but could just be the name his cult puts on the Fire magic they tap into, he doesn't have much of a story though a savvy reader can apply some general assumptions since the Red Priests are monotheistic thus are fairly likely to ascribe him (or the Great Other) responsiblity for say a Creation Myth or other such feats of omnipotence

Oh and what "greenseer" abilities? Bloodraven and Bran have yet to display anything particularly unique for magical powers, except maybe turning into a tree apparently everytime. Which given there are barely any weirwoods in the Southron kingdoms and nothing attested to in Andalos... well yeah. Nevermind the Seven as yet seem to have no powers because again they have not shown in the story much to speak for their existence period so use readers should be skeptical of any legendary feats they performed.

Why have contemporary color-coded god-kings if they aren't connected?


Turn it around.

Yi Ti has color coded kings as a cultural trait like say the Westerosi fetish for animal sigil. And because its kinda Chinese sounding, what with that Yellow Emperor. So of course they would color code their cultural superiority legend and up a color to a gem.

Ever notice how conveniently "Garth Greenhands" sons tie to the houses they "founded" like the foxy one founding the Florents. Because guess what... its very probably a load of crap and "Garth" likely was just a Green Man god of the First Men before the Pact as speculated. And if he was real he probably lived a far more mundane life then legends attest to and became more fantastic with time.

Cross reference how Arthur went from very very maybe a proto-Duke warlord ("dux bellorum" is the oldest attested title) in post Roman Britain... to well King Arthur.

Why do legendary knights have Others characteristics?

Why do the Warrior's Sons have a sigil of an icy sword?


They don't, that simple.

Why did the Children of the Forest know how to kill Others, yet not do it? Why did the Last Hero/Azor Ahai have to do it--and why did he need special knowledge in the first place?


Who ever said they didn't help? They apparently used to help supply the Night's Watch. Just knowing that say obsidian is kryptonite to the Others isn't the same as winning a war.

Similarly simply knowing how to win the Battle for the Dawn doesn't mean they could carry out the plan. Whatever it was, do the Others have a keystone like a ring that when cast into the fires will ensure their nigh instant defeat? Clearly whatever was used wasn't a complete solution though thousands of years is still plenty of time to rebuild. We don't know the whole story of the Last Hero much less if we can treat the narrative as anything close to fact so we can't even ask many questions about it with any decent basis.

(Also you say that like the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same person, which is only one of several possibilities and has a major distance problem. While of course the Eastern legends do not yet appreciably mention the Children at all, though their relatives probably had a presence in Essos)

My hypothesis can answer all of these questions. Can you?


Yes.

And everything involving the GEotD is not a hypothesis a conclusion ('this is important') looking to paint in the target to show that it hit the bullseye.

We have little to suggest anything Yi Ti is important. Its entry is closer to the Jogos Nhai then say the Riverlands and nobody has grand theories about Zhea Zorseface or House Mudd I've seen. Its not mentioned in the books very much and not in telling ways like Asshai and Azor Ahai. We have less then that to attest to the Great Empire of the Dawn being important, it only supportable as simply a legend of the Long Night from a YiTish perspective, not even the only one there's also that monkey woman business nobody seems to care about. If it seems 'grander' then Westeros well keep in mind the people in the East apparently ask if the Lannisters live in a palace of solid gold and peasants can gather gold from their fields like turnips.

And Westeros makes some pretty big claims about itself too and we are right to discard them. Even knowing as readers that magic is not baseless, its been fairly low key next to examples I could name in other series. Even allowing for some reality does not get us to say 10k year reigns of god kings without terrible tonal dissonance.

And as I demonstrated... the Great Empire of the Dawn is barely mentioned in the material. Unless I'm missing the explicit references all over the places like say the black stone peppering the entire book. And the Deep Ones at least have mention in the main text, though various meta reasons suggest they won't be relevant.

You've not even laid basic foundations you need to make a theory. You can't. There just isn't enough material to make conclusions in a world where uncertainty is the rule not the exception. You've just got a mound of personal fanfic as a framework combined with asking and answering questions that are not questions thus do not require answers, and aggressively narrow interpretations to questions that while maybe real have no definite answers much less the answers you suppose being the correct ones. I can spin a thousand alternate explanations to those if I choose, because once I'm not working with just the facts I get to project anything I need.

You've started with your goal and been working backwords, I expect based on the wrong conclusion that something you've read was important because it happened to stick in your head.

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I thought this was amazing.....I love the topics on the possible deeper meanings of ASOIAF. I don't have anything to contribute other than my thanks for an excellent read and my appreciation. Keep on keeping on!!



This and I just noticed a new chapter from LmL?? Yes please!

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As I discussed with LmL, I have an idea that Garth Greenhand might be the exiled Jade Emperor. But in any case, he looks like a GeoDawnian who came to Westeros through land.

I said similar thing in discussion with LmL, creepy :D

We have no indication Jade Emperor was exiled and Garth doesn't need to be Jade Emperor, all emperors wear jade clothes, he could be any one of them i like Beth's idea of him being Emerald Emperor.

I would like to add that I think all three sons of BSE were emperors, like if he proclaimed them before final fight occurred, it could indeed mean they really had names we ascribe them, also would explain why Garth had jade garment, proof is here

Those who have visited Yi Ti as it is today tell us that the thousand gods and hundred princes yet remain … but there are three godemperors, each claiming the right to don the gowns of cloth-of-gold, green pearls, and jade that tradition allows to the emperor alone

TWOIAF, YiTi

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~snip~

You seem upset. I'm not really sure why, unless you feel like you spent a lot of time reading something that wasn't worth your while. But...in that case it's kind of on you. It's called "A Secret History of Three Gemstone Emperors." Pretty straightforward. If you're already certain there's not enough material about Yi Ti and GEotD to make good theories, or that gemstones mean nothing, why bother with my thread at all?

Sorry about your wasted time, if I had a time-turner I would refund you.

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^^ that's interesting EQ, I had not considered that as foreshadowing. I'm very undecided about the idea of three BSE children as well as many of the new ideas in the OP and comments here, as I tend to work a bit more methodically and conservatively in my own theories. What we've going on here is some really interesting hypothesis that need to be tested and scrutinized, so we'll see how it goes. But one clue for three BSE children (besides the obvious three heads has the dragon and three moon meteor children from the fire moon) is the idea that Robert only had 3 bastards than lived to adulthood in the story -Mya Stone, Gendry "Rivers," Edric Storm. We saw Edric play the role of Lightbringer, as he and Davos represented the two halves of the comet in the "Davos Shadowchaser" chapter. I think a good test for this idea would be to reread Mya and Gendry chapters and look for clues. I saw a Mya clue - she says her father must I've been a goat. A goat-headed horned lord is a pagan deity, and he combines the concepts of green man and baphomet - kind of like crossing Satan and the Jolly Green Giant. This where it becomes confusing. Robert seems to play the role of usurper, which is the Bloodstone Emperor. Knowing this led me to try out Edric Storm, child of the usurper, as Lightbringer, the offspring off the Sun and Moon. And it was a BINGO moment for sure - Edric is playing the role of son of Azor Ahai. But who is Azor Ahai? Does he have any sort of horns / horned lord / baphomet connotations? Robert wears stags horns, like Garth, but he's the usurper - what the hell is going on? It's almost like a reversal - the Stag (Robert) usurps the dragon, instead of Azor (the dragon) killing Garth (the stag). So maybe we are supposed to just translate all the Robert / stag stuff into fire language and apply it to Azor, the usurper, and vise versa with Renly, who acts like Azor Ahai - his troops are shadow warriors and his armor drinks the light right before he is killed, but when Garlan wears his armor (Renly's resurrection) his horns glow golden with reflected firelight like a flaming crown. From shadow warrior to resurrected solar King - that's what Renly does.

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Well personally I think this theory has some basis because civilization has to have some central beginning, with a central beginning. Throw in a global catastrophe, ur bound to have multiple retellings of the story as people relocate. As civilizations expand and split, each molds the stories. And in a part of the world were civs rise and fall quite regularly, u get a broken telephone to the point where the stories become so fantastical that humans using magic become god kings. In Westeros though u have a people that have been there for so long that their story can stay more consistent and be more reliable. So far we know little of their story other than the more fantastical first men retellings. BUT that doesnt mean the eastern wildly extravagent retellings shouldnt be dismissed.

And George the history buff has to know this and since his whole thing is perspective its quite obvious there are connections that can HELP bridge the gaps in our knowledge, and history repeats itself. Sorry if this post is redundant lol

Civilization in no way, shape, or form has anything even remotely like a common origin

Humanity as hunter-gatherers spread across Earth. By 10,000 BC-ish we'd walked from Africa to the tip of South America. This was thousands of years before developing agrarian sedentary culture and then civilization. Present historical narrative last I'd checked points to several different first civilizations with the Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley in Pakistan/India, and Yellow River in China. Then of course in the Americas many centuries later and possibly a couple times there. The best answer for why "later" is found in Guns Germs and Steel a book everyone should read. All show little to zero connection to one another. Even if say you can compact a few as hypothetically stealing from one another that still leaves "the Middle-East" plus China plus Mesoamerica and is a terrible disservice to the Indus Valley.

And that's not to say its some kind of linear descent where say everyone European has Sumerian or Egyptian ancestors. Or that they Europeans simply picked it up from established civilizations. Actual history get more complicated with important elements like a particular invention invented independently in more then one place. Something like gunpowder which to the best of our knowledge has only been invented once before the industrial period and spread everywhere is the exception not the rule.

Concepts like a "Cradle of Civilization" are basically big damned lies, or more specifically lingering Eurocentric narratives of now dubious scholarship sadly still probably in places like HS textbooks.

If you wish to argue that GRRM is a history buff and it influences his writing then that is actively disproving any sort of common origin theory or simple explanation... because history is the opposite its a jumbled complicated mess when if you restrict yourself to nominally the scientifically verifiable. It is still more an art then a science in many cases.

A problem that grows worse not better by having myths be real in some but not all cases like in ASoIaF.

Which of course is the probably the point... there is no central explanation. Planetos lives and breath echoing history in countless ways.

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^^ that's interesting EQ, I had not considered that as foreshadowing. I'm very undecided about the idea of three BSE children as well as many of the new ideas in the OP and comments here, as I tend to work a bit more methodically and conservatively in my own theories. What we've going on here is some really interesting hypothesis that need to be tested and scrutinized, so we'll see how it goes. But one clue for three BSE children (besides the obvious three heads has the dragon and three moon meteor children from the fire moon) is the idea that Robert only had 3 bastards than lived to adulthood in the story -Mya Stone, Gendry "Rivers," Edric Storm. We saw Edric play the role of Lightbringer, as he and Davos represented the two halves of the comet in the "Davos Shadowchaser" chapter. I think a good test for this idea would be to reread Mya and Gendry chapters and look for clues. I saw a Mya clue - she says her father must I've been a goat. A goat-headed horned lord is a pagan deity, and he combines the concepts of green man and baphomet - kind of like crossing Satan and the Jolly Green Giant. This where it becomes confusing. Robert seems to play the role of usurper, which is the Bloodstone Emperor. Knowing this led me to try out Edric Storm, child of the usurper, as Lightbringer, the offspring off the Sun and Moon. And it was a BINGO moment for sure - Edric is playing the role of son of Azor Ahai. But who is Azor Ahai? Does he have any sort of horns / horned lord / baphomet connotations? Robert wears stags horns, like Garth, but he's the usurper - what the hell is going on? It's almost like a reversal - the Stag (Robert) usurps the dragon, instead of Azor (the dragon) killing Garth (the stag). So maybe we are supposed to just translate all the Robert / stag stuff into fire language and apply it to Azor, the usurper, and vise versa with Renly, who acts like Azor Ahai - his troops are shadow warriors and his armor drinks the light right before he is killed, but when Garlan wears his armor (Renly's resurrection) his horns glow golden with reflected firelight like a flaming crown. From shadow warrior to resurrected solar King - that's what Renly does.

What about Bella? I think she counts as a Westerosi adult since she is working as a prostitute. That makes four we know of, and since Maggie the Frog predicted he'd have 16, I'm not sure how much weight we want to give the number of his known children.

I took this to be a wink at Cercei having given Robert horns--i.e. cheated on him. There is a lot of mythology and imagery and loaded symbolism surrounding the concept of fertility deities, so it's easy to link into from multiple directions--horns, fruit, the color green, etc. I know characters can have different sets of symbolism attached to them, but I feel like there is already so much Thor/thunder god imagery attached to Robert that I'm always hesitant to put him in another symbol set. Particularly since the horn stuff seems to fit better with being cuckholded. If there were other things, like some association with green, then I think it would work better.

Whereas Renly, to our knowledge, has not been cuckholded--book Loras is apparently faithful even after his death--so he has a fertility deity imagery triple-threat going on in the parlay with Stannis: vine-based crown (rose), eating fruit, associated with green. The rose and the green go with the Tyrells....but then the Tyrells live in Highgarden in the Reach, which gets you right back to Garth the Green again. So I feel a lot more comfortable with Renly as the Green Emerald Whosiwhatsit than with putting him in a red or blue set--or with putting anyone else as the Green Whosiwhatsit.

I'm not sure I follow with Renly's shadow warriors?

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Wow, I could not disagree with you more about real history, Solomon, which is not surprising. I happen to love Guns Germs and Steel, agree everyone should read that. But I also read Graham Hancock, who I am guessing you think is a quack.

I think any study of competitive mythology inevitably leads to one of two conclusions: some sort of universal unconscious fro which everyone draws ideas - which is basically an entirely magical concept - or, we have an ancient common ancestor from who everyone took their mythology. Because all mythology, everywhere, has waaaay too many common elements, stories, characters, and ideas to all be invented separately. The matching Atlantis / flood myths from both sides of the Atlantic is a huge smoking gun. Crop genetics and human genetics also show far more ancient human travels than previously thought, and the signs of developed culture keep going back and back. You've heard of Gobekli Tepe and Catal Huyak, right? Are you familiar with Robert Schoch's work dating the Sphinx to well before 5,000 BCE and more likely all the way to 10,500 BCE?

To say the least, your view of history is far from the only one, and far from settled fact. Very far.

And even if an Atlantis-type substance never existed, the idea is certainly out there and might make for good backstory for a fantasy novel, some might say. ;)

I'm guessing you don't put much stock in ancient myths from Earth either.

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I'm also puzzled by your use of the phrase "Eurocentric narratives," as you are basically selling ancient people short with your entire view of ancient history. No civilization at 10,000 BCE, huh? Well I have some very large stone monuments incorporating incredibly advanced mathematical and astronomical concepts which name you a liar. Not a liar, of course - just someone with a severe modernist bias against ancient civilization, which of course is hardly rare.



I mean, what's more Eurocentric than poo-pooing ancient myth and ancient man as primitives?


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As I discussed with LmL, I have an idea that Garth Greenhand might be the exiled Jade Emperor. But in any case, he looks like a GeoDawnian who came to Westeros through land.

LmL mentioned your view to me earlier...that's really funny that we basically thought of the same concept independently. I was just already coming from the direction of "why are these three important gems missing from a lineup of important gems?" so I was looking for non-listed god-kings. :-)

I thought this was amazing.....I love the topics on the possible deeper meanings of ASOIAF. I don't have anything to contribute other than my thanks for an excellent read and my appreciation. Keep on keeping on!!

This and I just noticed a new chapter from LmL?? Yes please!

Why thanks! I appreciate your appreciation. :-)

See you on LmL's new thread.

I said similar thing in discussion with LmL, creepy :D

We have no indication Jade Emperor was exiled and Garth doesn't need to be Jade Emperor, all emperors wear jade clothes, he could be any one of them i like Beth's idea of him being Emerald Emperor.

I would like to add that I think all three sons of BSE were emperors, like if he proclaimed them before final fight occurred, it could indeed mean they really had names we ascribe them, also would explain why Garth had jade garment, proof is here

TWOIAF, YiTi

Yeah, I'm only opposed to the Jade idea on the basis that I was looking for Emerald so that wouldn't help me, lol. Plus Renly's magical emerald castle makes it feel like a lock for the existence of an Emerald Garth Green.

I do wonder if the Jade Emperor and Garth had similar natures, which is why they're both shades of green. And Renly's jade crown kind of points to EE having strong Jade heritage, IMO.

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Ok, here is the stuff from Renly's assasination

The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, (armored in black ice?) as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. (Azor Ahai = the Smith) There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly’s shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life (sounds like dead weirwoods, which I think are linked to the creation of Others and greenseers) Where Storm’s End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp. The candles within Renly’s pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.
[...]
It was pleasantly warm inside, the heat shimmering off the coals in a dozen small iron braziers.
[...]
The king’s armor was a deep green, the green of leaves in a summer wood, so dark it drank the candlelight. (the only other "light drinking" thing I have found besides Ned's sword, Asshai, and the dragon meteors of the moon's destruction - this is very specific language. Whatis George implying with all this shadow stuff around Renly? Renly has shadow warriors, while Stannis has a wall of black and torches moving around)
[...]
Dawn was the chosen hour.” (of course, when else for a Battle?) Chosen by Stannis,” Randyll Tarly pointed out. “He’d have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We’ll be half- blind.(a reference to God Almighty, know as the dragon Urrax, a.k.a. the "God's Eye" a.k.a. my avatar. The teeth of the rising sun means the sun is a dragon. A half blind dragon.)
[...]
It was cloth- of- gold, heavy, with the crowned stag of Baratheon picked out in flakes of jet.(does sound a bit GeoDawnian, now doesn't it?)
[...]
Brienne brought the king’s gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height.

But Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe 8 feet tall, mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say

[...]
“I beg you in the name of the Mother (of dragons, Nissa Nissa, grandmother moon),” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword … “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. (sacrifice-style)“Your Gr— no! ” cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.

ACOK, CATELYN

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[snip]

And as I demonstrated... the Great Empire of the Dawn is barely mentioned in the material. Unless I'm missing the explicit references all over the places like say the black stone peppering the entire book. And the Deep Ones at least have mention in the main text, though various meta reasons suggest they won't be relevant.

You've not even laid basic foundations you need to make a theory. You can't. There just isn't enough material to make conclusions in a world where uncertainty is the rule not the exception. You've just got a mound of personal fanfic as a framework combined with asking and answering questions that are not questions thus do not require answers, and aggressively narrow interpretations to questions that while maybe real have no definite answers much less the answers you suppose being the correct ones. I can spin a thousand alternate explanations to those if I choose, because once I'm not working with just the facts I get to project anything I need.

You've started with your goal and been working backwords, I expect based on the wrong conclusion that something you've read was important because it happened to stick in your head.

As for your bizarre attempts at using math and page numbers to prove your point... really strange approach there. How many pages are dedicated to blue roses? Three? Five? Hmm, must not be important then.

As for being barely mentioned, I have said this repeatedly, we are talking about the ancient dragonlords from Asshai, who have been mentioned all through the series. I have linked them to the GEotD, and laid out a lot of evidence to support the link, different types of evidence, I might add - you can read it in my signature, "Fingerprints of the Dawn." What I believe George has done is to simply give us more info about the ancient dragonlords by giving us the name of their empire before the Long Night disaster. The GEotD is simply more information about Asshai, disguised as an ancient myth from Yi Ti. Is it that hard for you fathom this possibility, at least? The dragonlords from Asshai are the point. "GEotD" is just a name. Don't get hung up on it. If you don't buy the connection, then just mentally substitute "ancient Asshai" when you hear someone say "GEotD" and we will be talking about the same thing, for the most part.

But honestly, anyone who thinks that the fact that the gemstone-eyed ghosts in Dany's dream who hold flaming swords and help her wake the dragon happen to have four gems of the GEotD emperors is a coincidence has a radically different view of the author and his work that myself and many others. With Martin, lord of the detailed description and master of symbolism, very little is coincidence - especially a crucial moment like this dream. Moreover, Euron's statements of golden gods with gemstone eyes, and Daenerys having eyes of Amethyst is additional confirmation that none of that is coincidence. All of this is laid out in "Fingerprints," take a look before you dismiss this idea entirely.

As for laying the foundations, the foundations are in my three theories in my signature. I do have the privilege of claiming some small amount of credit for breaking open the astronomy layer of metaphor which runs through the entire series. My insights about the GEotD and Asshai really flowed from the astronomy encoded into the series. People have since taken many of these concepts and run with them, built on them, fine tuned them, and in some cases corrected them - just as I had hoped when I released the theory three months ago. Have you read any of my theories, Simon? I'm not just here talking out of my ass - I've done a tremendous amount of research, and my conclusions are not easily dismissed. I have mountains of text correlation for the astronomy theory, and far more still to come.

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Ok, here is the stuff from Renly's assasination

The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, (armored in black ice?) as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. (Azor Ahai = the Smith) There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly’s shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life (sounds like dead weirwoods, which I think are linked to the creation of Others and greenseers) Where Storm’s End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp. The candles within Renly’s pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.
[...]
It was pleasantly warm inside, the heat shimmering off the coals in a dozen small iron braziers.
[...]
The king’s armor was a deep green, the green of leaves in a summer wood, so dark it drank the candlelight. (the only other "light drinking" thing I have found besides Ned's sword, Asshai, and the dragon meteors of the moon's destruction - this is very specific language. Whatis George implying with all this shadow stuff around Renly? Renly has shadow warriors, while Stannis has a wall of black and torches moving around)
[...]
Dawn was the chosen hour.” (of course, when else for a Battle?) Chosen by Stannis,” Randyll Tarly pointed out. “He’d have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We’ll be half- blind.(a reference to God Almighty, know as the dragon Urrax, a.k.a. the "God's Eye" a.k.a. my avatar. The teeth of the rising sun means the sun is a dragon. A half blind dragon.)
[...]
It was cloth- of- gold, heavy, with the crowned stag of Baratheon picked out in flakes of jet.(does sound a bit GeoDawnian, now doesn't it?)
[...]
Brienne brought the king’s gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height.

But Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe 8 feet tall, mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say

[...]
“I beg you in the name of the Mother (of dragons, Nissa Nissa, grandmother moon),” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword … “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. (sacrifice-style)“Your Gr— no! ” cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.

ACOK, CATELYN

Oooohhhkay, gocha. I always start at the emerald part so I miss the beginning, lol.

This may be confirmation bias, but I still feel, overall, as though this scene is depicting "the fall of the Emerald Emperor" at the hands of the SE.

Gray men encroach on the candle-lit pavilion. I think the visuals are very important here, so it's significant that the darkness is not black but gray. Gray seems to often represent hesitation, uncertainty, or conflicted sense of identity. Half-truth, people who are neither good nor bad. After Stannis attacks Renly, many of those troops will switch to Stannis's side. So I think this may represent the SE not only killing the EE and raining destruction on his fruitful realm, but also bringing some of the EE's people to the SE's side. It may also be another indicator that the SE felt conflicted about the murder of his brother. (I think Brienne here symbolizes the SE's love for the EE, also indicating internal conflict. Though of course the murder-side wins over the love-side.)

It's also good to remember that "shadow" is also used in ASOIAF to indicate something illusory or insubstantial, e.g. power as a "shadow on the wall," the Night's Watch is a "shadow" of what it once was. I think that makes the most sense in this case--the knights are not able to protect Renly, nor could Garth's knights protect him. (Thanks, GRRM, for using shadows to indicate totally different things, yeesh.)

Cat is unable to make out any sigils on the gray banners--this also seems to indicate indecision, or possibly deceit. Both make sense here I think.

Outside is gray, dark, cold, threatening, foreboding of autumn and winter. Inside is warm, light, and green. I think the light-drinking green armor symbolizes a green time that is darkening into a time of black magic.

The "tall naked trees" seem to foretell winter in general, which on the allegorical level is going to be the Long Night.

I agree "teeth of the rising sun" evokes dragons. But I'm not sure that indicates this scene is allegorically depicting a dragon attack. Dawn and rising sun can also symbolize the beginning of a new era, i.e. a cold, dark time coming to supplant a warm and bright one. That works on both levels of the story--both Renly's reign and Garth's are about to come crashing to a halt.

Red in the context of blood doesn't need to point to fire magic, IMO, more likely just blood magic. Connected to a dark, unearthly sword in the context I think it's pointing allegorically to a magic sword made using blood magic, much like Lightbringer was but with a black shadow-purpose.

And it's important to keep in mind that the attacker of Renly *is* Stannis, with the help of blood magic (no fire magic to create the shadow-assassin, as far as we know, in spite of Mel being an adept at that as well.) Stannis has plenty of blue/icy imagery attached to him, so much that there are threads about him becoming the Great Other. I don't think he will, just that he has enough ice-blue symbolism attached to him to stand in for the Sapphire Emperor in this sequence.

I'm starting to see black and green together as a general symbol of dragonblood family conflict, which would definitely apply on the allegorical level.

Oh, and the part about only darkness being where Storm's End stands...in the literal scene I think this foreshadows the shadow-baby attacking Storm's End next; in the allegorical level I think it means that Storm's End had not yet been built.

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Mel refers to the wards at Storms End as "Dark walls no shadow can pass." What do you make of that?

Well mainly that they were built during a time when shadow-attacks were considered a major problem. I.e. the Long Night with all it's black sorcery shenanigans.

I have an intuition that I can't quite back up yet that the Deep Ones an other Iron Born associated figures become more powerful during Long Nights. This would explain why Durran Godsgrief (who I think was likely the son of Garth) had such trouble with the sea and wind deities. (Or maybe I'm just really hoping for an undead kraken to pop up in WoW, lol.) Not sure quite what Ilenei is all about but haven't really focused on that yet.

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Well mainly that they were built during a time when shadow-attacks were considered a major problem. I.e. the Long Night with all it's black sorcery shenanigans.

I have an intuition that I can't quite back up yet that the Deep Ones an other Iron Born associated figures become more powerful during Long Nights. This would explain why Durran Godsgrief (who I think was likely the son of Garth) had such trouble with the sea and wind deities. (Or maybe I'm just really hoping for an undead kraken to pop up in WoW, lol.) Not sure quite what Ilenei is all about but haven't really focused on that yet.

Ellenei is a mermaid, Crowfood's daughter has discovered by tracing the etymology and examining the myth. The daughter of the sea and wind would have to be mermaid, wouldn't it? Thus, it is a similar story to the Grey King. Both married a mermaid, and both brought down fire from heaven. You see, the fire moon goddess became a mermaid when she plunged into the sea - symbolically, anyway. That's what's going on here. Durran stealing the daughter of the gods is another "pulling down a god from heaven," just as Azor's slaying of Nissa was the pulling down of the true gods. The Grey King did the same thing, but the story is split up - he separately calls down the fire of the gods and marries a mermaid, but it's really the same thing. Hugor pulling down stars, the Maiden losing her heart to Ser Galladon - all the same idea.

About Ser Galladon and Brienne - Tarth's capital moved from "Morne" to "Evenfall." Galladon represents the Morningstar (Lucifer, the one who challenges god) while Brienne the Evenstar - the resurrected lord of the underworld. That's what I am seeing.,at least within the metaphor of garth. I think Galladon represents Azor Ahai, as the maiden lost her heart to him. The suggestion that Ser Galladon might use his magic sword to kill an enemy 8 feet tall and mounted on an aurochs is AA killing Garth, just as he does in Renly's tent.

But it certainly does seem there is a connection between AA and the Others - specifically, resurrected AA in his Evenstar role. My leading two scenario's for the end of AA's arc, from the beginning, have been:

  1. AA dies at the hands of a Stark, wielding Dawn (original Ice), and afterwards, resurrected AA becomes the Last Hero and does something noble - takes his reforged dragon steel (remember it was broken) north. OR,
  2. AA dies at the hands of a Stark, wielding Dawn (original Ice), and afterwards, resurrected AA becomes the Night's King. Who also might be doing something noble, somehow.

Now, I am even wondering if resurrected Azor Ahai IS ACTUALLY GARTH. Remember, there is a memory of Garth as one who DEMANDED sacrifice to make the season turn, as well as the one who was himself sacrificed. Think about shadow Renly, with his light drinking armor, "resurrected" as Garlan in Renly's armor, now with a solar crown of fire.

Meanwhile Stannis, who starts out as "Azor Ahai," seems to be turning into the Night's King. That's fire into shadow, while Renly goes from shadow to fire.

This si the part of the process of any theory where you are seeing the definite patterns, and you know something is going on, but you aren't quite sure yet if something means "x," or the opposite of "x." I always go through this phase with each individual theory.. you just have to keep trying different bangles and keep matching the ideas against the text and let the text sort out the truth. That's where this crowd-sourcing via forum plays such a crucial role... I love you guys. :kiss:

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Hey, so, since Solomon and I were discussing history and the ideas of advanced ancient culture, I went over to the website of my hero, author Graham Hancock, and dug through his 'articles' section. I found this, a capsule of a book written by another fellow named Kevin Curran. Just read this:

Please welcome Kevin Curran as our Author of the Month. In this article, he discusses past comet fragment impacts and the long-term cultural ramifications of such cataclysms. We should take heed, Kevin believes, of the warnings our ancestors passed down to us about these disasters.

In 2007, a team of twenty-four scientists presented evidence that massive comet fragments exploded over North America 12,850 years ago, killing millions of creatures and people. If this event happened in the not so distant past, why didn’t our ancestors share this horrifying experience with their children and stress the importance of telling the story to future generations? Fall of a Thousand Suns: How Near Misses and Comet Impacts affected the Religious Beliefs of our Ancestors proves that they did. There are descriptions of the cataclysmic event in dozens of religious texts and myths around the world.

Lacking science, each culture described the comet impact as best they could: as a lion sent by the Sun that “roared” and scorched the land, a giant fiery snake that flew through the air and killed people, a sun that fell on distant lands, or an angel that fell from the heavens to Earth. With the help of religious scholars, anthropologists, and astrophysicists from JPL and NASA, the author of Fall of a Thousands Suns spent years investigating what our ancestors knew about comets and their godlike destructive power.

Frighteningly, as the author dug deeper, he discovered that some religious texts, myths, and sciences pointed to a more recent near-miss by a comet, a snake-like comet that spanned the entire night sky, small asteroid impacts that leveled cities, and yet another massive comet that hit our planet and killed millions. This more recent impact appears to have created megatsunamis hundreds of feet high that decimated coastal civilizations. That story too was passed down orally, until it was eventually recorded in popular religious texts known to every Jew, Christian and Muslim alive today.

Don’t we owe it to our ancestors, who struggled to survive in the wake of these celestial cataclysms, a progressive world where we use science and comparative religion to search for past truth? Fall of a Thousand Suns attempts to do just that. After reading it, you won’t look at comets, meteor showers or religion in the same way.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/CurranK1.php

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Wow, I could not disagree with you more about real history, Solomon, which is not surprising. I happen to love Guns Germs and Steel, agree everyone should read that. But I also read Graham Hancock, who I am guessing you think is a quack.

Well, damn at least you're a true believer and don't just roll this out for fiction. From a quick wiki check I would say Mr Fingerprints probably makes the Aliens look credible because they are openly using magical explanations in the form of mythic alien science. Which doesn't say require a sharpshooting fallacy so massive we must rebuild geology from the ground up to "prove" Antartica moved rapidly.

Well before those I actually prefer actual IRL magic, gods, fairies, and the whole shebang, they become more likely then such lazy science. If everything we know is so very wrong then there's no actual basis to hold to a conclusion like magic doesn't exist because the better alternative no longer exists.

I think any study of competitive mythology inevitably leads to one of two conclusions: some sort of universal unconscious fro which everyone draws ideas - which is basically an entirely magical concept - or, we have an ancient common ancestor from who everyone took their mythology. Because all mythology, everywhere, has waaaay too many common elements, stories, characters, and ideas to all be invented separately. The matching Atlantis / flood myths from both sides of the Atlantic is a huge smoking gun. Crop genetics and human genetics also show far more ancient human travels than previously thought, and the signs of developed culture keep going back and back. You've heard of Gobekli Tepe and Catal Huyak, right? Are you familiar with Robert Schoch's work dating the Sphinx to well before 5,000 BCE and more likely all the way to 10,500 BCE?

Those Turkish sites are beautiful but also too late to meaningfully change the global narrative were back far enough were actual history is only detailed enough to happen at Westerosi speeds. Sphinx work I've heard for years, I've also heard it used for just about any claim someone wishes.

And as for some "collective unconscious" there probably is something analogous to that concept. In that humanity only thinksso many thoughts, makes so many stories, and tends to act in similar ways independently. Which far more simply speaks to evolution wiring us with certain tendencies. We might figure out the specifics eventually with enough study.

Any literal connection of those sorts of cultural memes is either completely unprovable being so far back as to be oral onlyand thus demonstrably so overwritten it simply isn't possible to recreate any original. A more contemporary date say post-10k BC is a more extraordinary claim and needs more extraordinary evidence. Which doesn't exist.

And ultimately globally speaking mythology is more superficially close, while some ideas might show up I've yet to hear the claim that lays out this Ur-Myth comprehensively and through global evidence of its evolution like you can do with Indo-European myths. All I get is picking superficial similarities and the declaration that ah they are both red they must share ancestry.

To say the least, your view of history is far from the only one, and far from settled fact. Very far.

There are any number of places for opinion in history. This is not one of them.

And its not just an opinion. Saying that should be considered by all as the admission of defeat by the speaker because they clearly have no actual rebuttals and so choose blank denial. You are of course "entitled" to any opinion you like, nobody can actually make you change it in a meaningful capacity. What you are not entitled to is your reality and if you can't share it on any rational basis you don't have reality.

And even if an Atlantis-type substance never existed, the idea is certainly out there and might make for good backstory for a fantasy novel, some might say. ;)

The Atlantis analogue is well attested to in the text, its name... Valyria.

So yes its being used already.

Not enough, there are other mysteries attested to like Asshai and Azor Ahai. They don't connect to the GEotD which except with it as the subordinate YiTish take not to be preferred without more data. Sure there might be something there... but looking for clues and symbolism like gems is pointless and probably flat out innaccurate to boot. Much less tying say sapphires and Garth Greenhand to it.

Even if there was a super-civilization that sort of thing is not evidence, its simply irrelevant. Thats a subordinate hypothesis that can be considered after fact of the super-civilization is established, and he still looks more like a Green Man god stripped of divinity to become the legendary (but not genetic) founder of Reach houses. He's more overtly magical then say Bran the Builder or Durran Godsgrief to suit the Reach's snooty superiority schtick.

I'm guessing you don't put much stock in ancient myths from Earth either.

I don't mangle them beyond all recognition just so I can still call them "true" precisely because I have more respect for them then that. Myth is either incompatible or have to be stripped of all meaning to bash it into an external pattern. Which isn't a pattern, just literary brute force. Obviously say Perun and Thor share ancestry, but should a particular story make them the same entity would be another matter. And that's easy next to making a One True Global Thunder God.

I've seen plenty of settings with lots of gods or that try to resolve myths. Most tend to go in for the faith-parasite model where humans create them. And generally fragmentary not syncretic, Zeus and Thor are separate entities. (They might even have a rap battle on a good day)

A Song of Ice and Fire is not like those works. It is instead highly suggestive that there are no gods or at best they will remain entirely passive. Thus are ambiguous at best, or actually greenseers for the old gods. Ergo like mythology on the matter of being true are probably not and don't share any meaningful common origin.

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