One Question: How can Sansa marry?

[Ted Chang]

Getting back to Roose, how on earth does he hope to maintain his hold on the north if he betrays the Lannisters so openly? He has Stannis marching from the wall, and by openly accepting Sansa in Winterfell rather than sending her head back to Cersei in a box he can forget about help from the crown. Even the Freys now have to think twice about supporting someone who betrays allies left and right and has basically isolated themselves from the rest of the realm. Heck, even the north doesn't support the Boltons.

So going forward, I'd be interested to know if LF telling Cersei that Sansa is in Winterfell was part of a plan cooked up between LF and Roose. And if not, what is to stop Roose from telling the queen that he thought he was marrying his legitimized bastard to LF's legitimized bastard and it was LF who had Sansa all along? Oh, and by the way, here is Sansa's head.

I think things are a lot more dire for Sansa than most people realize.

I rather think that with Tywin dead, Jaime crippled, Tyrion a declared traitor and Kevan being boring, Roose and a few others besides are figuring that Cersei can't hold power for very long. The Lannisters are on the wane and the Boltons know it. At the very least Roose can present Cersei with a fait accompli, leaving her little choice but to accept his behaviour.

[Mithras]

I mean there's no evidence that Tywin ever annulled Tyrion's first marriage-I remember a fair bit of theorising on the book!forums that involved LF producing a fake Tysha to annul Sansa's marriage in the books.

Tywin spoke with the septons and they decided that the marriage never happened in the first place, so there was no need to annul it.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Maybe the north doesn't recognize the marriage because A it wasn't consummated and B it was done in front of the 7 and not the old gods. Therefore it is null and void.

[Magjee]

So is GRRM a moron too? Is Sansa not supposed to marry in the books as well?

Spoiler:

From the Sansa Excerpt:

"No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world."

I don't know how to hide text please correct if possible.

[John Suburbs]

I rather think that with Tywin dead, Jaime crippled, Tyrion a declared traitor and Kevan being boring, Roose and a few others besides are figuring that Cersei can't hold power for very long. The Lannisters are on the wane and the Boltons know it. At the very least Roose can present Cersei with a fait accompli, leaving her little choice but to accept his behaviour.

Agreed, but wouldn't it be wiser from Roose's perspective to wait until Cersei implodes and then bring Sansa out of hiding? By revealing Sansa and then rushing the marriage, he is at a major disadvantage with LF because Roose is essentially the one caught with the stolen goods and he can't even argue that he didn't know it was Sansa.

At the same time, LF has no way of delivering either the Vale or the Riverlands to Roose. He is warden of both territories in name only. He has no armies or bannermen of his own, and the titles were a gift from the crown. If he tries to march soldiers in defiance of the crown, hardly anyone will go with him because he will suddenly be an attainted traitor to that very crown and stripped of all titles. Only a complete idiot would follow LF north.

So unless Roose and LF have a plan to suddenly remove Lannister control of the IT in short order, I don't see how any of this can work out in Roose's favor.

[The hairy bear]

Do you really think that the Freys and the Northern Lords support Roose because Cersei asked them to? Wow... The Freys support Roose because of their alliance (remember Walda and the Red Wedding?), the Northern Lords don't support him, that's why he needs a marriage with some Stark (Arya or Sansa) and even that can't give the Boltons any support from the Northern Lords because they plot against them (Manderly?).

The Red Wedding only took place because Tywin Lannister allowed it. "Some wars are won with quills and ravens". Walder Frey supports the Boltons because it's in his interest to do it, and will stop supporting him when it is no longer. If the crown declared the Boltons and whoever helped them traitors, I fail to see why Walder would keep supporting him.

The position of "Warden of the North" is given by the crown, and the crown can revoke it at will. The same goes for the position of Young Lord Robin/Robert's Regent and Lord Protector of the Vale. The crown doesn't need to send troops. Only by calling them traitors and appointing others, their positions will be seriously compromised.

It seems obvious to me that the support of the crown should be worth more than the allegiance of the few Northern Lords fool enough not to understand that Sansa is just a prisoner of the Boltons.

Can you develop a little, or are we supposed to believe everything you say? What doesn't make sense in an alliance between the Vale and the North, considering the fact that it's also considered in the books?

Sure:

• Sansa's plan makes no sense. She is giving herself willingly to the murderers of her family in exchange for a vague option for revenge. How she plans to get that revenge is unknown, but meanwhile she will be raped and politically used. Easily, she'll get pregnant and good luck then. This also place her at Winterfell, where an enemy army is approaching. This may mean a long siege, famine, and perhaps a sack of the castle and murder/more rape.

Roose's plan makes no sense. As said, his main supporters are the crown. Antagonizing them is a very bad idea, specially when the rival king is attacking him. The most that he can hope is to defeat Stannis, and hold the North for some years until the situation in the South is stabilized and they send an army against him. And of course, the circumstances of the marriage of his son to Sansa are more likely to turn the Northmen against him than the opposite.

Littlefinger's plan makes no sense. Sansa is a big asset to him (both politically and, if he loves her, romatically). Giving her away to the Boltons and receving nothing in return, makes no sense. A better plan would have been to wait to see if Bolton or Stannis emerged as victors of the battle. Also, if when he proposed his plan, Bolton had immediately brought it to Cersei (the most logical thing to do), he would have lost his head.

I repeat: an alliance between the North and the Vale can make sense. What's stupid is the particulars of "this" alliance between the North and the Vale. It doesn't beneft any of the participants, and it's just there for plot convenience.

You can repeat the word "plot holes" a hundred times if you want, it won't become true. Littlefinger discussed about the fact that the marriage was not consummated, and as I said before, they can do that because it's the law of the strongest. When Renly declared himself king of Westeros, did you call that a plot hole too? You know, the law of succession said that the king was Joffrey (or Stannis if you consider the fact that he's a bastard), not Renly, yet he declared himself king of Westeros.

1) The books don't "ignore" that Renly was the younger brother. They explain it and address it. The existance of presumptuous usurpers that believe that they deserve the throne is not a plot hole. But the show don't address the problems, they ignore them (or dismiss them with unsubstantiated throwaway comments). Why Jaime wants to rescue Myrcella alone? Because "he has to". Why the crown believes a squire over the kings' wife? Because of a "birthmark". Why Sansa marries a psychopathic torturer? For "revenge". Why the Boltons and the Lannisters openly betray the Lannisters? Mmmm...

2) Renly was actually the strongest. The Boltons are not. They can't stand against the six Southern kingdoms combined. Their kingdom is in ruins, their rule is precarious at best, they'll be weakened even more after the battle against Stannis, and... winter is coming.

[Ted Chang]

Agreed, but wouldn't it be wiser from Roose's perspective to wait until Cersei implodes and then bring Sansa out of hiding? By revealing Sansa and then rushing the marriage, he is at a major disadvantage with LF because Roose is essentially the one caught with the stolen goods and he can't even argue that he didn't know it was Sansa.

At the same time, LF has no way of delivering either the Vale or the Riverlands to Roose. He is warden of both territories in name only. He has no armies or bannermen of his own, and the titles were a gift from the crown. If he tries to march soldiers in defiance of the crown, hardly anyone will go with him because he will suddenly be an attainted traitor to that very crown and stripped of all titles. Only a complete idiot would follow LF north.

So unless Roose and LF have a plan to suddenly remove Lannister control of the IT in short order, I don't see how any of this can work out in Roose's favor.

I wonder whether Roose would feel he has the time with Stannis breathing down his neck. I guess one consideration would be just ensuring that those now with him have something to fight for. I think the nature of things back then is that pretty much everybody has to wing it to some degree. Apart from the somewhay dodgy turbocharged KL ravens breaking the sound barrier at will most communication will be out of date when it arrives. Roose probably has no idea how much sway LF actually has in the Vale. All he knows is that he currently holds title.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Well said but the show-apologists won't listen. "Hurr durr, you just don't like it 'cos it's different from the books"

LOL I'm starting to even have a hard time just watching the show, as it's stupid and boring, two horrible sins that even the sin of Sansa's fluctuating marriage situation and rape, can't seem to alleviate. Stupidity is widely accepted in television viewing, but boring....is a capital offense, regardless of shocking offenses a show tries to use...........to mask the stupidity. It's still boring me to death, slowly. I do think this show has more than jumped the Dornish shark, they've married off and raped the first semi adult Stark Shark they've had their hands on........and are just looking for the most shocking shark attacks and jumps to keep the audience going WOW......until they are finished with this project.

In all honesty, I think D&D are bored with doing the show, are 'over it,' and just speeding toward whatever epilogue they are privy to thanks to GRRM sharing info and/or basic outlines. I wish D&D would share some of the burden of writing,producing,whatever......with peers that are actually still interested in the project.

ETA: Then again, maybe I should be grateful that D&D will soon be done their story, and I'll gladly wait for the written one. Even IF I never get a finish to the written one, I don't really care that much, as I've loved what I had so far. I don't take what D&D show now and going forward to really equate THAT MUCH with the written work, anyway. A matching epilogue isn't much, ya know? LOL

[Ted Chang]

LOL I'm starting to even have a hard time just watching the show, as it's stupid and boring, two horrible sins that even the sin of Sansa's fluctuating marriage situation and rape, can't seem to alleviate. Stupidity is widely accepted in television viewing, but boring....is a capital offense, regardless of shocking offenses a show tries to use...........to mask the stupidity. It's still boring me to death, slowly. I do think this show has more than jumped the Dornish shark, they've married off and raped the first semi adult Stark Shark they've had their hands on........and are just looking for the most shocking shark attacks and jumps to keep the audience going WOW......until they are finished with this project.

In all honesty, I think D&D are bored with doing the show, are 'over it,' and just speeding toward whatever epilogue they are privy to thanks to GRRM sharing info and/or basic outlines. I wish D&D would share some of the burden of writing,producing,whatever......with peers that are actually still interested in the project.

That last bit is a pretty wild and unsubstantiated assessment. I don't see any evidence to suggest it. I appreciate your frustration but I can't see it myself.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

That last bit is a pretty wild and unsubstantiated assessment. I don't see any evidence to suggest it. I appreciate your frustration but I can't see it myself.

It's called my opinion, hence the words " I THINK"

[Ted Chang]

It's called my opinion, hence the words " I THINK"

I never though the word 'assessment' to be inflammatory before. You see, I too understand the concept of opinion, and had not thought I had implied otherwise.

[I am a Dragon]

Maybe the north doesn't recognize the marriage because A it wasn't consummated and B it was done in front of the 7 and not the old gods. Therefore it is null and void.

"Do you take this man to be your husband before the old gods and the new"

"I do. Before the old gods and the new"

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I never though the word 'assessment' to be inflammatory before. You see, I too understand the concept of opinion, and had not thought I had implied otherwise.

?????? I'm not sure what you are going on about, I just clarified it was opinion, clearly so, after you threw out words like 'wildy unsubstantiated' in relation to what was clearly opinion in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't look for argument where one isn't really happening. :dunno:

[Lord Damian]

Honestly, this subject should just be ended/locked. There is really no point in discussing it regarding the show.

[Mithras]

Walder Frey supports the Boltons because it's in his interest to do it, and will stop supporting him when it is no longer. If the crown declared the Boltons and whoever helped them traitors, I fail to see why Walder would keep supporting him.

Not really. There were Freys at both sides during the Wot5K. Lady Dustin said that if Roose defies the IT and declares himself as the King in the North, Walder Frey would be happy because his granddaughter becomes a queen.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

To go the the general OP of the thread. I do think the show made a mistake in annulling Sansa's marriage in this fashion, it takes away from the severity and permanence of the marriages in this society. If everyone, intact hymen or not, could willy nilly make such decisions about marriage, the entire backbone of the feudal political system is made null and void. Such things shouldn't be handled by the Pimp/Purveyor of record in KL, nor even by a semi-besieged Warden of the North, what's to stop someone else coming along next week to reinstate Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Come to think of it........we can no longer USE the idea of an intact maidenhood to end that first marriage, can we?

As Stannis would say: D&D have made the laws of the realm out of pudding.

[JonisHenryTudor]

In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

Well there are laws/rules of consummation.

There is this from http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/sex-spouses.php

My guess is that Martin followed similar structures. This below argument is from the write up on Brown Uni. There is some back and forth. I don't have my English/European texts with me at the moment or I would check for something more specific. But I believe in some regions, if a man did not consummate his marriage, the marriage could be annulled.

In the Middle Ages, some linked the sacrament of marriage to the nuptial blessing given by the church, but there were others who insisted that it depended on the physical consummation of the marriage. It seems that many held consummation as essential to the validity of a union, while the church generally maintained that mutual consent of the couple (signified by the blessing) was the only thing necessary to complete a marriage. Evidence for the first opinion can be found in Boccaccio's tale about Sophronia, who weds Giusippus but consummates the marriage with his friend Titus, who thus becomes her "real" husband (X.8) (Brundage, 456). Granted, this story takes place in Greece and not in medieval Italy, but it does seem consistent with the popular view that physical consummation was what determined the validity of a marriage.

In the twelfth century, Gratian had defined the two essential parts for the proper validation of a marriage: spiritual consent and physical consummation. According to him, without either of these components the union was invalid (Richards, 27). However, among the general public it seems that there were two opposing forces, neither of which saw the need for both of these two components. Some canonists actually argued the necessity of physical consummation. Aquinas and Bonaventure both agreed that a man who had a permanent inability to copulate, no matter what the reason, could not marry validly, while Bernard of Montemirato went even further to state that the ability to copulate and specifically to inseminate was crucial to a valid marriage (Brundage, 456). However, as we can see from Bernard's opinion, all three theologians probably had the necessity of procreation (rather than sexual fulfillment) in mind when they insisted that a man must be able to have intercourse with his wife.

[Lord Damian]

Maybe the show will use a similar excuse to declare jon the legitimate heir and king to Rheagar. Rheagar and Lyanna could have married on the grounds that Elia of Dorne could no longer have children. She show has opened the door to a few things.

[The hairy bear]

There were Freys at both sides during the Wot5K. Lady Dustin said that if Roose defies the IT and declares himself as the King in the North, Walder Frey would be happy because his granddaughter becomes a queen.

Walder Frey can be as happy as he wants. But openly supporting a traitor with the leavies of the Twins, it's a completely different thing. Just like during the Wot5k he probably wished the best for Emmon Frey and his kin, but he didn't give him troops.

My point stands: if Roose is declared a traitor by the Crown, his support will disminish.

[Connartist92]

In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

Sansa and Tyrion never had sex, the marriage can easily be cast aside.

And I don't think the Boltons care if the Iron Throne finds the marriage legitimate or not. They want Sansa to bolster support from the Northerners, not take her to court and declare her Lady Bolton.