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The Book of the New Sun First Read and Re-read project [spoilers]


Fragile Bird

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It seems obvious (and it is also revealed later in some more detail although never completely explained, e.g. whether Dr Talos could "cast a glamour" or maybe subtly influence the perception of Severian and the audience) that Dr Talos altered Jolenta in such a fashion that she would not be recognizable. (The waitress is described as a fairly average looking girl whereas Jolenta is a sex goddess with huge breasts and thighs (implying a somewhat grotesque ideal of beauty, quite different from the slender exultants) etc.)

Spoiler

The explanation late in vol.2 is "scientific", namely that Talos altered her with some kind of quick cosmetic surgery, turning her to some extent into a hybrid between human and android, I think.

But as Severian was present when Dr Talos promised to make the waitress more beautiful he should have at least entertained the possibility that it was her, no matter how she looked like. Granted, he had two or three very busy days, so he probably doesn't care and, for all we are told, the difference after the shaping up by Talos is extraordinary.

As for Severian's unreliability, I am not sure, but I think most "public" experiences are fairly reliable. He was very busy during his first few days after leaving the citadel and he is fairly inexperienced, so he simply has neither reason nor leisure to inquire whether Dorcas was resurrected from the lake or just a beggar girl who had lost her wits for a period of time and cannot remember her past. He might find Baldanders and Talos as strange as we do but how can he tell how odd they are compared to others roaming the greater world beyond the citadel.

There are quite a few episodes that are explicitly marked as dreams or dream-like where all bets are off. And there are a few (like his relation with Thecla or his visit in the atrium of time) that were rather private and might be a mix of reality and warped recollections. Similarly, the strange stuff in the botanic gardens although in the section with the averns there are so many other people around that it's probably a reliable report.

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So my suspicion of Jonas looks to be true -- I think the text has confirmed he is a robot, and a very, very old one, rather than human and his biological parts were grafted for want of mechanical parts.  

Now, reading further, it sounds like the damage was incurred during a crash landing on Urth for want of a proper dock for space craft.  The ship itself is a robot/AI and there are other crew, possibly all robots.  

Hethor appears to be biological so far but his continual shaking suggests some damage to him too. 

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I kind of coincidentally started a re-read of the series this weekend, so if I get to the stage where I'm current I might chip in more concretely, but I just wanted to note, on the is-Nessus-Buenos-Aries discussion above (a conclusion I actually came to by myself on my first read although since I wasn't even looking for locational clues or connections I don't know how), despite the geographic differences that may explained by time, one reason to hold that it is is that, as well as the Great Library being a homage to Borges, as I see was discussed above, Ultan himself is pretty explicitly based on Borges himself (his quotes on his own blindness are definitely based on quotes I've seen from Borges on same subject), and it would make sense that Wolfe felt fit to put him there because Buenos Aries is, in fact, the place.

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As I said further above, I find it funny and remarkable that two books appeared in the same year, 1980, independently in different languages (not Spanish), that both had a blind librarian as a reference and homage to Borges in them.

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I have been putting off the last chapter all day, because it's the longest chapter in the book.

Chapter XXXV, Hethor

The man in shabby gray was one of the execution groupies who had waited for Severian outside the Hall of Justice.  He is the gross and pitiful one who bemoaned the loss of his sex doll, the one who urged terrible punishments be meted out to the prisoner.

He's a small man wearing clothing too large for him.  He speaks in a sing-song voice, with a stutter. He poetically speaks about the play performance the night before, at some points as if it were real, interspersed with references to his life and praise for Severian, who he calls Master.  He seems to have been a lower level crewmember of a space ship, saying he was a stevedore, but also calling himself the old captain as well.

Among other things, he says:  "Long I signed on the silver-sailed ships, the hundred-masted whose masts reached out to touch the st-st-stars, I, floating among their shining jibs with the Pleiades burning beyond the top-royal sp-sp-spar, but never have I seen ought like you!"

And:  "I u-understand more than you think, I the old captain, the old lieutenant, the old c-c-cook in his old kitchen, cooking soup, cooking broth for the dying pets!"

Dr. Talos tries to dismiss him, saying there will be another performance that night, but they will be far away by then, and in the meantime they have to pack up.  Hethor then says, "Stowage?  There's no one better for it than I, the old s-supercargo, the old chandler and steward, the old st-stevedore."  He then vaults up to the platform with remarkable agility and starts packing up.

Severian explains to Dr. Talos that there are many men like him, finding pleasure in pain, and wanting to associate with torturers like a normal man might want to be around Dorcas and Jolenta. [That might explain his rant about torturing Agilus]

Everything pretty well gets packed up into a huge barrow formed from pieces of the stage and pulled by Baldanders.  Hethor follows them the way Dorcas did when Agia was trying to chase her off.  Dorcas explains that Agia really hated her, that after the duel when she was leading Severian away and looked back and saw and saw Agia, saw her face.

Jolenta has become very tired and Baldanders offers to carry her.  She refuses, not wanting to look foolish.  Severian is eminded how many people are alonf, and he believes he understands why Baldander obeys the orders of Dr. Talos.

Hethor wants to carry Severian's sword, but Severian thinks of Agia and Agilus' plot and tells him no, not now, not ever.  They round a hill and Dr. Talos asks if any of them have seen the Wall before.  None have except the doctor and Baldanders.  Dr. Talos is impressed with the ancient ones who planned the Wall so well, leaving much space for the expansion of the City.  Baldanders, he says, told him that was not the purpose of the empty land, which he laughs off, explaining Baldanders is older than him and thinks he knows everything.

Jolenta wants Dr. Talos to hire a litter:  he tells her he has no money, she should spend her money if she wants one.  She says she won't be able to perform that night, and he tells her he's sure Dorcas would like to try to play her part.  She asks Severian if he didn't want to go back into the City to meet with the Pelerines.  A man riding a merrychip (a very small forerunner of the horse from 10 million years ago, standing 35 inches high at the withers) by them overhears and tells them that the Pelerines left the City the night before, carrying deeses turned backwards (Byzantine art showing Christ enthroned with Mary and John the Baptist standing on either side of him) and their habits torn.

Dr. Talos whispers to Jolenta that he believes the angel of agony and her understudy will be with them for a while longer.

On one hand Severian is comfortable with the Wall because it is made of the same material as the Citadel.  It is so high few birds fly over it, perhaps eagles and teratornis (an ancient bird of prey that went extinct 10,000 years ago) and maybe geese.  But to enter the gate is akin to entering a mine, the Wall is so thick.  Those who have not been there before feel nervous, Dorcas reaching for Severian's hand, Hethor hanging his head.  Jolenta reaches for Dr. Talos, but he ignores her, and to Severian's astonishment she goes to the man on the merrychip and hangs on to his stirrup strap.

There are windows in the walls of the gate, through which Severian can see men and women and creatures that are neither, cacogens, he thinks.  Others seem to be beasts with too much men in them, with horns and, when they seemed to be speaking, teeth like nails or hooks.  Dr. Talos says they are the Autarch's pandours (18th century Croatian soldiers who served with the Austrians, notorious for their cruelty).

Dr. Talos explains the Wall is honeycombed with passageways, filled with soldiers protecting the Wall the way termites protect their mounds.  He and Baldanders have been through it four times now, and each time the people crossing through were being watched by them.  He thinks they are looking for known miscreants, and would come out and seize them if they saw one.

The man on the merrychip speaks up and say he can explain, and will tell them a tale.  Dr. Talos says ok, as long as he does not ask about them and they will not ask about him.  Severian notices that instead of a right hand he has a hand made of metal.  The man admits he wanted to ask why Talos was walking with a carnifex and why Jolenta, the loveliest lady he has ever seen, is walking in the dust.  Jolenta lets go of the stirrup and says he is poor and no longer young and it hardly suited him to ask about her.

The man flushes and is silent for a dozen steps, then starts his story.  In ancient times, he says, the lords of the land feared no one except their own people, and built a great fortress on a hilltop north of the city.  "It was not called Nessus then, for the river was unpoisoned." [Nessus in Greek mythology was a centaur who tried to force himself on Heracles' wife (Hercules), who sees what is happening from across the river and shoots and kills him with an arrow poisoned with the blood of the Hydra.  While dying he tell Heracles' wife that if she takes his blood and gives it to Heracles he will always be faithful to her.  Later she puts the blood on a robe for Heracles, and he dies from the poisoned blood on the robe.]

People were angry at the building of the fortress, because it prevents them from killing their lords, but other people travel to the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge.  A woman comes back from the stars with nothing but a handful of beans.  She shows the beans to the lords and tells them that if they don't obey her, she will cast the beans into the sea and destroy the world.  They have her seized and torn to bits.

We hear no more of the story, because in the distance Severian can see light ahead and there is some kind of blockage on the road.  People with vehicles are flailing their teams and trying to clear a path with their whips.  Someone whips Dorcas, and Severian grabs the ankle of the wagoner who struck her, pulling him off the wagon.  He intends to impress Dorcas by using a torture method on him, but he falls under the feet of the trvellers and the wagon wheels and is crushed under the heavy carts.

Severian finds this an appropriate place to pause his story, having told the tale between the gate of the necropolis to the gate of the Wall, perhaps the largest gate anywhere.  When he entered the second gate he began to walk a new road.

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7 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

People were angry at the building of the fortress, because it prevents them from killing their lords, but other people travel to the stars, returning with treasure and knowledge.  A woman comes back from the stars with nothing but a handful of beans.  She shows the beans to the lords and tells them that if they don't obey her, she will cast the beans into the sea and destroy the world.  They have her seized and torn to bits.

Long ago in a land far away, when I first read this book, it was this story right here that almost killed it for me.  As a kid I thought, "What a load of irrelevant nonsense.  This book just keeps getting more illogical and less interesting - killed for a handful of beans?"

Luckily I was on a long bus ride home from a game with nothing else to do, so I kept reading.  Still, even today, when I come to this section it seems to be the low point of the story's attraction for me.

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58 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

In the House Absolute, Severian meets again the androgyne from the House Azure, who proves to be the contact for Vodalus.  But then the text seems to tell us that this is actually the Autarch. 

When was the last time we saw on a face that was described as androgynous? On the coin Vodalus gave Severian.

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53 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Long ago in a land far away, when I first read this book, it was this story right here that almost killed it for me.  As a kid I thought, "What a load of irrelevant nonsense.  This book just keeps getting more illogical and less interesting - killed for a handful of beans?"

Luckily I was on a long bus ride home from a game with nothing else to do, so I kept reading.  Still, even today, when I come to this section it seems to be the low point of the story's attraction for me.

Personally found there were enough clues that I thought these weren't just magic beans. But I read the series as an adult so probably picked up on things a kid wouldn't.

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There are monsters in the water, right?  After all, the huge woman who saves Severian (with hands as long as the coffins in his secret hiding spot in the necropolis), in the river when almost drowning and those he meets again in his 'dream', are the brides of Abaia, who will swallow the continents.  Could they have come from the magic beans?

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Yes, it seems like the dreams of sea monsters link to actual alien Titans living in the sea because their mass makes it impossible to live on land, and they are waiting to conquer the world, and they are linked to the faction who wants mankind to return to the stars.  

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37 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

There are monsters in the water, right?  After all, the huge woman who saves Severian (with hands as long as the coffins in his secret hiding spot in the necropolis), in the river when almost drowning and those he meets again in his 'dream', are the brides of Abaia, who will swallow the continents.  Could they have come from the magic beans?

That's where my thoughts run.

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What metaphors Wolfe meant to present us I still don't know, and may never know even after I finish the four books.  But....Abaia seems to be this huge monster that is slowly growing, over centuries.  And the women are slowly growing, also, presumably, over centuries, until they are big enough to become his brides, which I assume means have sex with and procreate.  Then there will be more Abaias, growing over centuries.

If you think about it, it has taken centuries to poison our seas, until now they are so choked with trash that when they autopsy dead whales that wash up on the shore their bellies are full of car parts and plastic bits and bobs.  And there's a massive trash pile that stretches for miles and miles in the Pacific.

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19 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I kind of coincidentally started a re-read of the series this weekend, so if I get to the stage where I'm current I might chip in more concretely

The more the merrier!  Please join in with comments, whenever!

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5 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

In the House Absolute, Severian meets again the androgyne from the House Azure, who proves to be the contact for Vodalus.  But then the text seems to tell us that this is actually the Autarch. 

This is going ahead and spoiling a little more for clarification:

Spoiler

The androgyne from the House Azure IS in fact the Autarch who also poses as one or several minor officials in the House Absolute, one of whom is Vodalus contact. I found this very confusing and implausible in book 2 but it is somewhat clarified in book 4 when Severian meets him again. Apparently the Autarch prefers to be part of his own secret service. It is also explained how he became "androgynous"

 

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5 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

There are monsters in the water, right?  After all, the huge woman who saves Severian (with hands as long as the coffins in his secret hiding spot in the necropolis), in the river when almost drowning and those he meets again in his 'dream', are the brides of Abaia, who will swallow the continents.  Could they have come from the magic beans?

Later in the books, I think Claw of the Conciliator, Jonas and Severian have an extensive discussion about the "monsters in the water".  The discussion includes several pieces of information that Jonas (somewhat reluctantly) discloses that shape the reader's understanding of the MITW and provide greater illumination.

What I have yet to understand is why Severian has these dreams about or other brushes with the MITW on various occasions when he is immersed in water.  I know that Jung had lots to say about water and dreams and so on, but why does Wolfe link these elements with the MITW?  Is there some BotNS formula such as D+W-MITW like ASOIAF has R+L=J?

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Baldanders suggests that Dr. Talos might be the subordinate -- that Baldanders spends long periods in oblivious deep thought, but he is actually the one in charge -- and then a chapter or two later Dorcas says she thinks Dr. Talos might be Baldanders' son.  In the first book I briefly had an impression that Baldanders had more gravitas and knowledge than the apparent lumbering Frankenstein's monster, but that lacked any further support for a long time and now suddenly reinforced twice.

It's also noticeable that Dr. Talos and the Autarch/androgyne address Severian in the same unusual way.

Dorcas & Talos also allude to their separation from Severian outside the Piteous Gate, which was unreported in his abrupt jump to book 2.

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I've been thinking about the narration of these books where the narrator breaks into his

Spoiler

/her/their

present tense/refers to things to come/other stuff (i.e. "It was in this fashion that I began the long journey by which I have backed into the throne.").

Spoiler

Our narrator might not just be Severian (although it seems like it's him mostly). Judging by how he escapes the Antechamber in book II, Thecla is very much in his head now (by now I mean by the time Severian records this journey for us. The same might as well go for the POVs of the old Autarchs).

Anyways I'm now thinking about the alzabo ceremony that Master Ultan was discussing with Severian way earlier on in the book.

In the hopes that there are people better acquainted with Catholicism than I: Is this not reminiscent at all of the "eating of the body of Christ"?

I'll jump back in with this in the "Antechamber" chapter of book II but I thought I'd note it for those doing rereads:

Spoiler

It might be interesting to note possible spots in the narration that aren't actually being narrated by Severian at all, if any

 

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