Why did Rhaegar give the garland to Lyanna? A Harrenhal discussion...

[Marcel]

Or if it's the first step in a sequence of such scandalous behavior. That might have been Rhaegar making his first steps at being Aegon IV. And I really don't see why we shouldn't see Rhaegar as showing that he was sexually, romantically interested in this young woman if he was ready to slap his wife publicly like this in the light of him later leaving his wife and newborn heir to make the same young woman his mistress. We never see a single occasion of him showing care to his wife, so why should he do it at Harrenhall?

Brandon reacted because he saw it as an insult to his House - a declared intention of the married crown prince to chase Lyanna or perhaps a declaration that he had already bedded her.

Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were safe at Dragonstone during almost the entire Robert's Rebellion. When Aerys decided to summom them to King's Landing and Rhaegar knew about that, only then he decided to join his father and face the rebels.

[Marcel]

Or maybe they would consummate such love if they could get away with it without facing dire consequence. We hardly know these people. Hell, maybe they did consummate and didn't get caught! What do we know.

Your view of human behaviour seems highly idealized to me.

Not all come from the same mold. This is as true for people as for characters in a literary work.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The first thing everybody did after Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna probably was to look to Elia to see her reaction. Elia didn't react, which is very telling, in my opinion.

It tells you what?

That she knew in advance?

That she had a tight emotional control and a good pokerface?

That we are not told because she was in a balcony with a veil to protect from the sun and no one saw her reaction?

That she wasn't even there?

Anyway, I don't really read the wolrdbook so tell me:

Do you have a quote that says: ''Princess Elia did not react''? Or are you simply pointing out the fact that there are no quotes describing her reaction? Because these two situations are not remotely similar.

[Rippounet]

We never see a single occasion of him showing care to his wife, so why should he do it at Harrenhall?

I always saw Dany's vision as showing a loving Rhaegar with Elia, that's why I put it in the OP. You don't tell your wife your newborn child is the "Prince that will save the world" without also seeing your marriage as a product of destiny.

Barry says Rhaegar was "very fond of her." Dany thinks this speaks volumes, but I think she doesn't understand what the word means at this point, and that Barry is not sure what to say because he believes Rhaegar later abducted Lyanna. And Rhaegar's melancholic and bookish nature means he probably wouldn't be overtly affective anyway, but this doesn't mean he didn't care for his wife.

All in all I think there are plenty of elements showing that Rhaegar was not one to fool around. He didn't have affairs or bastards, and even Ned can't imagine him in a brothel. Yet he had a "delicate" wife who remained bedridden for six months. "Devoted" is the word I'd use for Rhaegar.

Or if it's the first step in a sequence of such scandalous behavior. That might have been Rhaegar making his first steps at being Aegon IV. And I really don't see why we shouldn't see Rhaegar as showing that he was sexually, romantically interested in this young woman if he was ready to slap his wife publicly like this in the light of him later leaving his wife and newborn heir to make the same young woman his mistress.

This is a classic case of a Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. You see the garland as a first scandalous act, because you believe there has been a second one.

I think Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna though, which makes the garland-incident something else entirely. And again, if Martin said this was a good question, I think it certainly is.

[Marcel]

A married prince giving the crown to an unmarried girl was obviously scandalous. There should be no confusion on that matter.

No, it's not. It depends on who is the married prince and who is the unmarried girl.

[Marcel]

I always saw Dany's vision as showing a loving Rhaegar with Elia, that's why I put it in the OP. You don't tell your wife your newborn child is the "Prince that will save the world" without also seeing your marriage as a product of destiny.

You are so close of the truth. There is another Dany's "vision" wich is infinitely more revealing. But this is another can of worms.

[SolomonBlack]

Oh, it certainly wasn't wise, at least on the face of it, but that's precisely why Rhaegar's motives are such a key to understanding what was really going on at that time.

Well, the Brandon-Ashara theory is a good one because it seems to explain Brandon's over-the-top reaction, Ashara's later suicide, and even Barry's reflection that Harrenhal proved Rhaegar trusted Arthur Dayne more than him.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean it was Rhaegar's only motive for giving the garland to Lyanna. Rhaegar could still have other reasons of his own.

And the most coherent and supported notion is still that Ashara and Ned had the relationship and he was "Stark" according to Barristan. Brandon is clearly a hot head (attested to as the "wolf blood") so frankly we don't need to suppose any secrets to him to explain his behavior anymore then Robert. I don't suppose he was totally in love with Cat or going be completely loyal to her, but its still Ned that the connection is drawn with unless I've missed something.

If there's a radical reinterpretation here its that the man who "dishonored" Ashara was Barristan himself speaking in the third person. His feelings alone are essentially shameful as he was Kingsguard after all.

I would tend to think that a combination of things made giving the garland a must-do for Rhaegar. Brandon-Ashara would explain why he was willing to antagonize the Stark brothers at least. But I'm still not dismissing another hidden message. The garland as a remontrance to Brandon makes sense, but I would think it also had to make a different sense for Lyanna herself, and yet another sense for the spectators as well. In another words I'd like to believe that this was a very calculated move with different meanings for each person present.

No it doesn't make sense that's the thing. There are a trillion ways to insult a man in Westeros. And its taking as fact something that's its own hypothesis that has to be proven to a high degree of certainty before it can be used in other ways. You've just got yourself twisted into circles.

And no alternative is as compelling as Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

What seems to support this is precisely the fact that the people present did react in very different ways. The Starks were pissed, but we don't have Lyanna's reaction. Robert laughs, and broods later, which seems to indicate he first saw it as a compliment, and only later came to see it as a possible romantic gesture. And most importantly, the Martells apparently don't react, or at least not in any significant way. Lewyn was close to Rhaegar, so maybe we can dismiss his lack of reaction as loyalty or friendship, but you'd think hot-blooded Oberyn would demand an explanation for this slight on Elia's honour, unless he knew it wasn't a slight in he first place.

Robert's perception is the most "standard" one to me: to be surprised first (enough to lose your smile), then to think of it as a compliment (and laugh), and only later to think it over and wonder what it really meant (talking and brooding). The problem is, once Rhaegar allegedly abducts Lyanna, everyone automatically concludes it was a romantic gesture. Yet, as long as we don't have any indication that the Martells ever saw it that way, we can assume they knew of Rhaegar's real motive.

I've always found it odd that Oberyn, in his quest for vengeance, is so focused on the Lannisters and (IIRC) never speaks badly of Rhaegar. Or that the Martells, in spite of what the rebellion cost them, remain Targaryen loyalists to this day. You'd think the Crown Prince cheating on his Dornish wife and thus starting a rebellion eventually leading to Elia and her children's death would antagonize them a bit, wouldn't you? Also, Aerys seemed to have been very distrustful of the Martells, while Lewyn and Rhaegar were apparently close. So I'd conclude the Martells knew what Rhaegar was doing all along.

No dice, Martells were indeed pissed and took it out on Rhaegar by holding back their full efforts.

That's the public insult thing I dare say, Oberyn would seem more likely to ask for a threesome I think. Regardless, they were mad.

Well, for starters I am indeed starting to think that R+L=J is a giant red herring.

Yes well without diving too deep into that... being a red herring means the evidence supports otherwise. If he was going to fake it out I dare say it should be laid a little thicker for the "so very guilty you must be innocent" factor. Regardless its rather late in the game for any alternative, save that it will never be answered.

Regardless keep in mind that the more you are convinced of something the more "evidence" one tends to find.

But even if it isn't... However the affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna started does not preclude a dramatic love story unfolding. In fact, I would say it might make it all the more poignant.

Fair enough, but the Laughing Tree tale even points to potential mutual attraction where Rhaegar made the fiery Lyanna cry with song. Not that I suppose they went right to making the Steam of Ice and Fire at Harrenhal or such. The Laughing Tree tale still provides the most coherent motive and chain of events. Which if not full on love was a certain high regard.

I don't know... Tywin is very shrewd. Even in his madness, Aerys kept a lot of support. The Stark-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn alliance that was emerging was extremely powerful and did not appear to want to side with Rhaegar against Aerys. Other lords and houses could have seen an interest in moving against the Lannisters. Marching for Rhaegar would have been suicide.

Providing the gold for the tournament wasn't exactly an active scheme in itself (though of course, Aerys would see it that way): it was likely supposed to give Rhaegar the opportunity to ensure other great houses wouldn't interfere if the Lannisters and Martells sought to depose Aerys.

You're arguing at cross purposes here. How can Aerys having a lot of support make marching for Rhaegar suicide. Aerys and Rhaegar didn't have support, House Targaryen did together. March for one you march for both.

And if the most powerful lord in the realm comes out in support of the Crown, the dissension in plaguing the alliance against the Targs is even stronger. And heck the Trident seems to be the closest thing to a flat out army duel we've seen, add Tywin on Rhaegar's side and the balance tips precipitously. And that's just minimal, Twyin's support of a usurpation by Rhaegar thus still openly support the Targs might head off the whole thing especially if still Hand thus in position to possibly prevent the Stark deaths and such.

Appointing Tywin was the smartest thing Aerys ever did, loosing him was a death sentence that just took awhile to set in. But if Tywin is so convinced of supporting Rhaegar then what's he doing fuddling around likes he sulking when he has the solution in motion already. And the guy who won't even forgive the debts of the throne he owes just tosses it away on the greatest tourney in living memory but isn't willing to go further?

And just a thought: how politically important was the garland-incident anyway? The Stark brothers were upset, but the person who mattered was really Rickard. The Martells didn't react, so they probably understood what Rhaegar was doing. We don't know where the devil the Tyrells were at that point. So the only person whose support Rhaegar needed was apparently Robert.

While giving the garland to his betrothed might seem dumb at a glance, Lyanna was also supposed to become Lady Baratheon. In the long run, befriending Lyanna could prove quite useful to get the support of the Baratheons, if Robert could later be convinced that Rhaegar had no actual interest in Lyanna ; if Rhaegar had found out Lyanna was TKotLT he could have thought she was up to the job. And it was less obvious than trying to communicate directly with Robert.

I've speculated once before that with the garland Rhaegar wasn't trying to win over the allegiance of the Starks. He could have been trying to win Robert's, by opening a channel of communication through his wife. On the surface, everyone might think Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna, but the Martells (and other supporters) would have been informed it was just a trick.

What went wrong? Well Lyanna disappeared for a long while, and I assume her family locked her away because of her being TKotLT. And then, of course, she was allegedly abducted by Rhaegar, making the whole "false romance" thing suddenly a given for the whole kingdom.

Just another idea. As you see, I'm not set on one just yet, for lack of textual evidence.

On its own would be a scandal but might pass with time as long as Lyanna marries Robert. Yet with a failing king anything jeopardizing the support of House Targaryen can be critical.

You place great stock that Rhaegar could somehow have talked his way out of things... but politics doesn't tend to work that way. The people involved have other people they answer to, they can't react freely lest all their bannermen and smallfolk cease to respect them. Power resides where men believe it resides remember, you don't show you have power and you may find soon you don't.

Not in the face of blatant and public actions anyways. Even if Robert ignores the insult keeps laughing it away, if he doesn't respond in some way to redress it (or Rhaegar takes some strong action to show Robert has no choice but suck it up) then someone else starts maybe thinking they can offer similar insults and get away with it. Given Robert ain't the brightest so maybe he doesn't think that sure... but that makes it worse not better in the long run because his reactions aren't the sole factor.

Now on its own still minimal, but given how Aerys was clearly in a downward spiral trouble would doubtless arise somewhere else in the near future.

[Marcel]

It tells you what?

That she knew in advance?

That she had a tight emotional control and a good pokerface?

That we are not told because she was in a balcony with a veil to protect from the sun and no one saw her reaction?

That she wasn't even there?

Anyway, I don't really read the wolrdbook so tell me:

Do you have a quote that says: ''Princess Elia did not react''? Or are you simply pointing out the fact that there are no quotes describing her reaction? Because these two situations are not remotely similar.

The only reaction of note was Brandon's. Robert laughed and Maester Yandel speculates that, after this fact, Robert went on to nurture unhealthy feelings about Rhaegar. There is no mention of any reaction from Elia, which is surprising if she did not know of her husband's motives beforehand.

Edit.: Yandel's reports regarding Robert's Rebellion aim to justify the new Baratheon/Lannister regime. If Elia's reaction was something he could use to further defame Rhaegar, he would have used it.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

No, it's not. It depends on who is the married prince and who is the unmarried girl.

Sure. If the married prince has been castrated by some war wound, then that would be different. If the unmarried girl were his sister on her birthday (unless he's a Targaryen) then it would be different.

My point is not what it may ACTUALLY mean, but how it will be PERCIEVED as meaning by the gossipers. That's what makes a scandal.

Imagine that Rocky has just beaten Apollo Creed. Adrian is down there screaming "Rocky Rocky", but Rocky decides to bring up a teenaged girl, instead of his wife, up in the ring with him. Oh, but it's not scandalous!

[Anath]

I always saw Dany's vision as showing a loving Rhaegar with Elia, that's why I put it in the OP. You don't tell your wife your newborn child is the "Prince that will save the world" without also seeing your marriage as a product of destiny.

Barry says Rhaegar was "very fond of her." Dany thinks this speaks volumes, but I think she doesn't understand what the word means at this point, and that Barry is not sure what to say because he believes Rhaegar later abducted Lyanna. And Rhaegar's melancholic and bookish nature means he probably wouldn't be overtly affective anyway, but this doesn't mean he didn't care for his wife.

All in all I think there are plenty of elements showing that Rhaegar was not one to fool around. He didn't have affairs or bastards, and even Ned can't imagine him in a brothel. Yet he had a "delicate" wife who remained bedridden for six months. "Devoted" is the word I'd use for Rhaegar.

This is a classic case of a Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. You see the garland as a first scandalous act, because you believe there has been a second one.

I think Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna though, which makes the garland-incident something else entirely. And again, if Martin said this was a good question, I think it certainly is.

You might see a loving Rhaegar with Elia. I see a distant Rhaegar thinking only of his prophecy and his son's lofty destiny, refusing to do a fatherly thing for Aegon while Elia was all being maternal.

I agree with your view about Barristan and Dany, though, especially when Barristan lived in KL, so he wasn't close enough to Rhaegar and Elia to gain any real perspective of their relationship.

We don't know whether he had a thing aside as Elia was bedridden. If he was discreet, there was no reason for us to know, although I tend to think he didn't. And the fact that he slept with her just once after she rose from her bed shows that he either wasn't all that into sex, so no particular devotion here, or he knew she was not up to sex just yet, so he tried for an heir at the night of the comet, no matter the toll a second pregnancy so close to her first one might inflict upon her, and then left her alone.

There was a second one. He made Lyanna his mistress, or wife, or whatever, no matter whether he abducted her or not. And I am not the only one who thinks it was the first gesture. Barristan and Kevan, for one, agree with me.

[Rippounet]

It's possible...

But I assume he was smitten and did something stupid because of it until we see better clues.

And I'm not saying he did not scheme to have his father deposed, I'm just saying that being smitten can lead you to do things that are otherwise counterproductive to your goals. These things happens all the time.

In other words, I don't need to reconciliate his subtler and more rational actions with his actions in regards to Lyanna. He had plans, they got fucked up because he was smitten. Happens to the best of us.

It's certainly the simplest explanation. Whatever I say won't change that.

It all comes down to whether you accept the easiest narrative (at this point in the books), or whether you hunt for clues suggesting an alternative before the text provides you with a new narrative.

When I first read the books, Rhaegar abducting Lyanna struck me as odd, but I was willing to accept the idea he did something stupid out of passion (for love or prophesy, or both). The World Book changed that: it details the political context well enough, while remaining vague on the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna affair. It puts Rhaegar at the center of too many political plots and schemes for the affair not to have a political dimension from the start.

The World Book also made me realize Dany's vision of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon comes after Harrenhal. Would a smitten Rhaegar tell his wife their son is TPtwP? That made me go from "odd" to "very unlikely."

So I'll stand by my theory that the narrative we have doesn't make sense, and that it's legitimate to look for clues hinting at the next one. Alas, I believe Martin might keep this reveal for the very last book, and keep the ambiguity even in TWoW.

[Mal Malenkirk]

belated doubles post

[Marcel]

My point is not what it may ACTUALLY mean, but how it will be PERCIEVED as meaning by the gossipers. That's what makes a scandal.

It's not obviously scandalous. Who are the actors and their previous history matter when we speculate about their motivations. This is an obvious thing. Even for gossip.

[Marcel]

As an aside: Is there a quote in the worldbook that states that Elia had no visible reaction? Or are you pointing out that there is no comment on her reaction? Because that doesn't mean the same thing.

There is no comment on her reaction. Since Yandel needs to put the Baratheons/Lannisters in a positive light and the Targaryen in a negative light, this indicates that either she remained impassive or reacted in a way that would not be helpful to vilify Rhaegar.

[Anath]

There is no comment on her reaction. Since Yandel needs to put the Baratheons/Lannisters in a positive light and the Targaryen in a negative light, this indicates that either she remained impassive or reacted in a way that would not be helpful to vilify Rhaegar.

Joanna of Castile: one of the reasons she was dubbed the Mad was the fact that she was prone to jealous fits in public. Queens were supposed to take whatever their royal husbands threw at them with grace and dignity. Doesn't make the husbands less of louts.

Catherine de Medici comes to mind. She looked quite content to be publicly humiliated for Diane de Poitiers. When Henry died, it was quite another thing. Turned out that she had been less than pleased to be passed over for 20 years.

Even if Elia didn't start screeching to delight every gossiper around, that tells us nothing about her feelings and even less about her reaction when she was left alone with her victorious husband.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The only reaction of note was Brandon's. Robert laughed and Maester Yandel speculates that, after this fact, Robert went on to nurture unhealthy feelings about Rhaegar. There is no mention of any reaction from Elia, which is surprising if she did not know of her husband's motives beforehand.

Edit.: Yandel's reports regarding Robert's Rebellion aim to justify the new Baratheon/Lannister regime. If Elia's reaction was something he could use to further defame Rhaegar, he would have used it.

There could be tons of reasons for no mention of Elia's reactions, starting by simply not being present during the tournament and the crown ceremony. She was pregnant at the time after all, and pregnant women are not fond of sitting for several hours on a bench to watch a sporting event. Based on the pregnant women I've known, anyway. In such a case, a husband would still be expected to award the crown to his wife in abstentia with a cute comment about the fact she is bearing his child.

Just as likely is she was not in plain sight. The high nobles would often have balconies and veils to isolate them and afford them some privacy, precisely so that their reactions to whatever happens do not became gossip fodder.

[Anath]

There could be tons of reasons for no reactions by Elia, starting by simply not being present during the crown cermony. She was pregnant at the time after all, and pregnant women are not fond of sitting for several hours on a bench.

She had to be there for Rhaegar to spur his horse past her.

[Marcel]

You might see a loving Rhaegar with Elia. I see a distant Rhaegar thinking only of his prophecy and his son's lofty destiny, refusing to do a fatherly thing for Aegon while Elia was all being maternal.

I agree with your view about Barristan and Dany, though, especially when Barristan lived in KL, so he wasn't close enough to Rhaegar and Elia to gain any real perspective of their relationship.

We don't know whether he had a thing aside as Elia was bedridden. If he was discreet, there was no reason for us to know, although I tend to think he didn't. And the fact that he slept with her just once after she rose from her bed shows that he either wasn't all that into sex, so no particular devotion here, or he knew she was not up to sex just yet, so he tried for an heir at the night of the comet, no matter the toll a second pregnancy so close to her first one might inflict upon her, and then left her alone.

There was a second one. He made Lyanna his mistress, or wife, or whatever, no matter whether he abducted her or not. And I am not the only one who thinks it was the first gesture. Barristan and Kevan, for one, agree with me.

Barristan is very close to Dany and he thinks she loves Daario. Barristan is a bad judge of love or fondness. Elia's own mother had a very difficult pregnancy but tried again later (then Oberyn was born), so I don't think Elia wouldn't try again too.

[Marcel]

There could be tons of reasons for no reactions by Elia, starting by simply not being present during the crown cermony.

She was pregnant at the time after all, and pregnant women are not fond of sitting for several hours on a bench to watch a sporting event.

Ned's account says she was there.

[Ser Leftwich]

Lack of evidence is not evidence. Just because her reaction or Oberyn's or no other reaction was specifically noted does not mean there were no reactions.

For instance, maybe both Oberyn and Elia were smiling and then, along with everyone else, their smiles died.