Why did Rhaegar give the garland to Lyanna? A Harrenhal discussion...

[Mal Malenkirk]

What wouldn't a desperate woman do! Ten years of marriage and not a single kid to show up for it. The interesting bit is that something worked since she gave birth to ten children in rapid succession.

She realized it was her husband who was infertile, not her, and she took a lover?

[Hruodberht]

Sorry if this has already been posted I thought of this and jumped to the end to reply to the topic.

The crown pressented to Lyanna by Raeghar was made of blue winter roses, what if Brandon gave it to Ashara? I have no evidence of this happening, but why would the crown prince give (or get for that matter) winter roses to give to a lady He has just met (assuming they met at the tourney and not before). Any thoughts...?

[Ser Leftwich]

Sorry if this has already been posted I thought of this and jumped to the end to reply to the topic.

The crown pressented to Lyanna by Raeghar was made of blue winter roses, what if Brandon gave it to Ashara? I have no evidence of this happening, but why would the crown prince give (or get for that matter) winter roses to give to a lady He has just met (assuming they met at the tourney and not before). Any thoughts...?

Since the Whents' daughter was named the queen of love and beauty at the start of the tourney, the crown was likely hers to begin with and later could be given to whomever by the winner of the joust. It is just a matter of who gets to give it again at the end.

No reason to think that the crown/roses were provided by Rhaegar.

In what way would Brandon give the roses to Ashara? Ashara then cast it away? Gave it to the Whents to use as a prize?

[Rippounet]

Ahh, but the difference here is that I'm not claiming this to be the (as in only) narrative, just that its entirely possible to have one that fits every known fact and doesn't have major issues - and provided an example. Your statement was that the narrative we have doesn't make sense.

Well, I guess I should have made it explicit that all of the narrative I presented was just one option among many narratives, not a set of facts. I assumed that was sufficiently implied, but of course assumptions... My bad.

Well, my bad as well, I just didn't get it. :cheers:

In contrast, the idea of the 'affair' beginning at Harrenhal is just poorly thought out from start to finish. There is no follow up evidence for a year. No gossip of an affair, no further actions by angry over-the-top wild wolf Brandon, no actual political or social fallout on anyone. Instead we seem to have a 9 month-ish further period with not much happening that ends with an apparently happy-family scene between Rhaegar and Elia. Then several more months before everything suddenly explodes with no warning.

Now that scenario, most of 12 months with zero on the R+L front, could be all wrong, created by an absence of information, but that doesn't add up to me. GRRM writes very true to people nearly always and I really can't see nothing at all leaking out from that 'empty time' if there was an ongoing affair or ongoing rumours and machinations based on the QoLaB crowning. It would all be to significant leading up the the 'abduction' and consequent rebellion not to have been mentioned somewhere.

Then you have Rhaegar's prophecy plan and happy families with Elia. Neither of which fit with him running a romantic engagement with Lyanna at this time. Especially not given his characterisation as "dutiful above all" - which is itself a further point against a romantic liason forming at Harrenhal - his duty then is to Elia and the prophecy.

The whole romantic liason at Harenhal just doesn't fit the data. It doesn't fit people's personal preferences, and can be useful in allegorical theories and similar, but the data always comes first to me, and it just doesn't fit.

Well, I completely agree, this was one of the main points in my OP.

its certainly very easy to see why Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone could figure out that Lyanna was KotLT (assuming she was).

Have to agree with this as well.

I don't think its much of a leap. During the vision, he's clearly still on the "Aegon=PtwP, +2 more heads" plan and that appears to be very soon after the birth. It would take a little longer for the maesters to confirm that Elia can't have more kids after Aegon, so logically this is before the plan-shattering news that Elia can't provide the third head. We know (more or less, "it seems I must be a warrior") prophecy is important enough to him to change his entire lifestyle based on it.

He is so close to fulfilling the part of the prophecy we have heard of, just needs one more child. And the next thing we know, a few months later he 'abducts' another woman and it appears they have another child, his third head, together.

Well, I suppose Rhaegar eventually casting Elia aside for another woman because of what the maesters told him makes sense. The man was known to be obsessed with prophesies.

Two things do bother me:

1) The timeline. Given what JonCon says, I would expect Aegon's birth to be around the very end of 281AC. Rhaegar left KL around new year of 282 AC. This seems to indicate he left almost as soon as he learned Elia couldn't have a third child. So at this point, leaving to find another woman seems a bit callous to me.

2) Lyanna. Even assuming she'd caught Rhaegar's eye at Harrenhal, she's still probably the worst possible girl to go after. Since we agree that he didn't fall for her at Harrenhal... What led him to her?

Also, we know he didn't go straight for her because the abduction occurred months later. Two months later at least, possibly much more.

Thus, I would assume:

After the Maesters news about Elia, Rhaegar has three possible options; i) abandon the prophecy entirely, ii) assume Aegon is not the PtwP despite the comet and find another woman to start again with an entirely new three heads, or find another woman to continue the three heads needing only the third. i) seems highly unlikely given his apparently lifelong commitment and life-changing commitment. ii) is possible but unnecessary and wastes his existing two kids. iii) is logical and relatively easy. And either ii) or iii) is heavily supported by him soon after 'abducting' Lyanna and apparently creating another child with her.

Its therefore very little leap to postulate that 4 follows 3, and given we know he did do something with Lyanna soon after, 5 is very little leap indeed from 4.

I would add some options to the list like:

iv) Try to find a way to cure Elia, or at least to help her birth a third child.

v) Look for additional information on the prophesy.

or even

vi) Deal with important political matters (whatever they are) while thinking it over.

Point is, based on the HotU vision, when Rhaegar leaves KL in 282AC, even if the maesters told him Elia was -pretty much- barren, there's no way he's going for Lyanna just yet.

So there's still something missing from the narrative, however you look at it.

[corbon]

Well, I suppose Rhaegar eventually casting Elia aside for another woman because of what the maesters told him makes sense. The man was known to be obsessed with prophesies.

Two things do bother me:

1) The timeline. Given what JonCon says, I would expect Aegon's birth to be around the very end of 281AC. Rhaegar left KL around new year of 282 AC. This seems to indicate he left almost as soon as he learned Elia couldn't have a third child. So at this point, leaving to find another woman seems a bit callous to me.

2) Lyanna. Even assuming she'd caught Rhaegar's eye at Harrenhal, she's still probably the worst possible girl to go after. Since we agree that he didn't fall for her at Harrenhal... What led him to her?

Also, we know he didn't go straight for her because the abduction occurred months later. Two months later at least, possibly much more.

Thus, I would assume:

I would add some options to the list like:

iv) Try to find a way to cure Elia, or at least to help her birth a third child.

v) Look for additional information on the prophesy.

or even

vi) Deal with important political matters (whatever they are) while thinking it over.

Point is, based on the HotU vision, when Rhaegar leaves KL in 282AC, even if the maesters told him Elia was -pretty much- barren, there's no way he's going for Lyanna just yet.

So there's still something missing from the narrative, however you look at it.

I suspect the important thing is what he said of Aegon in the vision. "His is the song of ice and fire." Here he has been serenely (or not) proceeding along his prophecy plan with Elia, and suddenly its apparent that she's not the woman for all three heads the way he thought. If Lyanna comes to mind due initially to the KotLT episode, I think its the realisation that she's Ice (Starks were the Kings of Winter etc etc and there's that Pact of Ice and Fire between Starks and Targaryens in the past that fell through, that he would know about) that makes things blindingly clear. Stark Ice and Taragaryen Fire leads to the Song of Ice and Fire. Perhaps he even changes (again, remember it seems he initially thought he would be the PtwP when he changed his lifestyle to become a warrior and later thinks its Aegon) his belief and now thinks that his Stark-wife son will be the PtwP with a Song of Ice and Fire and his first two kids are the other heads of the dragon. Or he expects two more kids with Lyanna, who knows.

But I think this thought, focusing on the Ice and Fire which is clearly a signification part of the prophecy, would alleviate iv). And I suspect v) is either already exhausted or perhaps not greatly considered (he seems to be decisive once he makes his mind up, ala becoming a warrior out of the blue).

He also has to consider that Lyanna is also betrothed (and he may know that she is not enamoured of the idea, or he may not) to his cousin already and that adds an element of urgency. I would guess that an open betrothal is serious, but once an actual wedding date is announced, as it might be at Brandon's wedding, a betrothal breakage becomes even more serious.

I also think that part of him leaving Elia effectively so soon is also actually following up on vi), it seems. Between that, and Lyanna being already betrothed, and the Ice and Fire motif emerging more plainly to him, I don't see any real issue with the 3 month-ish time frame. Its seems to me to be a reasonable balance between urgency, politics and marriage issues.

And thats assuming there wasn't more to it than that, like simple opportunity, and 'early' abduction for some reason when his plan at that stage was still developing, or any number of other possibilities.

PS, we agree that the data suggests he didn't fall for her (or rather act on falling for her) at Harrenhal, but there's no reason she didn't leave a huge impression. He could even have actually fallen for her but resisted it (dutiful, above all). Which also support fairly quick action after. If his heart was lost already, it must have seemed like a wonderful gift for prophecy to almost be forcing his duty in the direction of his heart.

Or he didn't even think of her that way at Harrenhal. I have no idea where along the falling-for-her spectrum he landed at that time. Just that nothing much seems to have happened for around 9 months, then within 3 months-ish of Elia's change in capabilities hes 'abducting' Lyanna, apparently quite willingly on her part, and they have a child together, and Barristan (who spent some time with him towards the end) believes Rhaegar loved her.

[Rippounet]

I suspect the important thing is what he said of Aegon in the vision. "His is the song of ice and fire."

Ah. This is where I beg to differ.

I think the "ice and fire" thing is blown out of proportions by us, the readers, because we know it's the title of the series.

Rhaegar, on the other hand, overlooked that part long enough to think first that he was the PtwP, and then Aegon (which, from our point of view, is almost laughable). As far as we know he was only looking for a third head, not for a different PtwP.

Of course, it's possible that Elia's barrenness made him rethink the Ice & Fire bit. But it strikes me as considerably less logical than the other steps in the chain of events you constructed.

I'd say the reader is the one who thinks this bit explains his abduction of Lyanna. But for Rhaegar, to act upon such a flimsy thing... The man would have to be almost as mad as his father.

PS, we agree that the data suggests he didn't fall for her (or rather act on falling for her) at Harrenhal, but there's no reason she didn't leave a huge impression. He could even have actually fallen for her but resisted it (dutiful, above all). Which also support fairly quick action after. If his heart was lost already, it must have seemed like a wonderful gift for prophecy to almost be forcing his duty in the direction of his heart.

Or he didn't even think of her that way at Harrenhal. I have no idea where along the falling-for-her spectrum he landed at that time. Just that nothing much seems to have happened for around 9 months, then within 3 months-ish of Elia's change in capabilities hes 'abducting' Lyanna, apparently quite willingly on her part, and they have a child together, and Barristan (who spent some time with him towards the end) believes Rhaegar loved her.

Ah. I say this is a bit forced. You're forced to argue that Rhaegar had this sudden "eureka" moment and raced to ravish Lyanna before it was too late.

[Ygrain]

I think the "ice and fire" thing is blown out of proportions by us, the readers, because we know it's the title of the series.

Eh... and given that we have never been explained why the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", don't you think that the author dropping this particular phrase, in connection with the mystery behind the current story, is rather peculiar?

[Rippounet]

Eh... and given that we have never been explained why the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire", don't you think that the author dropping this particular phrase, in connection with the mystery behind the current story, is rather peculiar?

Of course that quote is crucial. I'm just saying Rhaegar wouldn't realize that.

Just to be clear: my pet crackpot is that he went to rescue her from men sent by Aerys, and only realized the Ice&Fire bit once he was in love with her. It's the "eureka" moment I'm not buying here.

[corbon]

Ah. I say this is a bit forced. You're forced to argue that Rhaegar had this sudden "eureka" moment and raced to ravish Lyanna before it was too late.

Well, not ravish necessarily, but...

The thing is, we know he thinks of Ice and Fire as significant, because thats the phrase he uses for his PtwP. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Ice and Fire are clearly deeply relevant to the PtwP prophecy in his mind.

Its not necessarily so much of a eureka moment. Its just that he's just had a sudden huge slap in the face of where he was going. He had this clear plan, his child was the PtwP and there were three heads of the dragon, so two siblings for the PtwP. Elia was his wife (he didn't actually get a say in that remember) and he was following the plan dutifully the way it appeared to be laid out in front of him.

Then suddenly she's effectively barren, not part of the plan at all.

He is forced to re-examine at this point. It doesn't need to be a literal eureka moment, but if he is suddenly thinking of alternatives, Lyanna's Ice reference surely wouldn't slip past him, especially with the Pact of Ice and Fire in the past between Starks and Targaryens (and he's a book-bloke remember, corresponding with Maester Aemon too, and probably others).

The thing is, we can see that he is, literally, suddenly forced to look at alternatives to his previous plan. He suddenly has open eyes looking when he didn't need to before. And he does, apparently suddenly, go with an Ice alternative. I don't think its any stretch at all to suggest that the Song of Ice and Fire was a factor (one of several no doubt) in that choice. According to the data we have, he was at A (vision), then later at C ('abducting' Lyanna and making a baby with her). We have a clear prior connection to B which is a logical route between A and C. Its only reasonable to think he went through B on the way to C.

[Ygrain]

Of course that quote is crucial. I'm just saying Rhaegar wouldn't realize that.

Just to be clear: my pet crackpot is that he went to rescue her from men sent by Aerys, and only realized the Ice&Fire bit once he was in love with her. It's the "eureka" moment I'm not buying here.

I don't think it was an eureka moment but, as corbon lays out above, a re-examination of how to achieve his goal.

I believe that his feelings for Lyanna did start at Harrenhal. For all we know, he hadn't been in love before, and Lyanna was very different from all the young ladies that were all but served to him on a gold platter - but, being Mr Dutiful, he didn't go any further than expressing himself through the crowning, just like Barristan would have crowned Ashara without going any further, and went back to Elia and worked on the three dragon heads. Then, however, a third head cannot be achieved, and his feelings and his duty finally point in the same way, towards Lyanna.

[corbon]

Of course that quote is crucial. I'm just saying Rhaegar wouldn't realize that.

Except of course we know that he should realize that, since he is the one that joined that phrase to the PtwP.

It seems to me that we have:

1. A Song of Ice and Fire is intimately connected with the PtwP in Rhaegar's eyes.

2. The Pact of Ice and Fire is something he should know about, an old treaty between the Starks and Targaryens

3. He chooses Miss Stark Ice-girl to create his 3rd head when Plan A proved unworkable.

Your argument is that 3. is random luck, despite 1 and 2, and not conscious design?

Just to be clear: my pet crackpot is that he went to rescue her from men sent by Aerys, and only realized the Ice&Fire bit once he was in love with her. It's the "eureka" moment I'm not buying here.

And what data supports Aerys sending men after her? Mind you,you siad it was crackpot, and absence of data is what defines those... :cool4:

[Marcel]

Except of course we know that he should realize that, since he is the one that joined that phrase to the PtwP.

It seems to me that we have:

1. A Song of Ice and Fire is intimately connected with the PtwP in Rhaegar's eyes.

2. The Pact of Ice and Fire is something he should know about, an old treaty between the Starks and Targaryens

3. He chooses Miss Stark Ice-girl to create his 3rd head when Plan A proved unworkable.

Your argument is that 3. is random luck, despite 1 and 2, and not conscious design?

The fact that there was a pact of ice and fire between House Stark and House Targaryen does not imply that every mention of ice and fire in Asoiaf is related to both. Ice is also associated with the Others, and Rhaegar would be familiar with such mythology from his correspondence with Aemon, if not from his own readings. The mention of such pact could be just one of the author's artifices to direct our minds to associate any mention of ice and fire with the Starks and Targaryen.

The meaning of Rhaegar's songs is not yet clearly established. My guess is that the songs were a way he found to process his visions, his dragon's dreams. I believe, for example, that the song of ice and fire from Rhaegar was based on a vision, similar to Daenerys's vision, where he (or the entity he identified with the prince that was promised) faces the hosts of The Others in a battle, perhaps at the Trident. There is no Stark involved in this context. There is no reason to search for a Stark lady to give birth to such Prince, because Rhaegar believed it was Aegon. Perhaps, the song of ice and fire is the saga of the Prince of fire that faced, with his dragon, the demons of ice.

I should note, however, that if Rhaegar shared this vision, it is possible that he has seen Daenerys's face in it. Not having recognized his own face, nor his son Aegon's face, nor his daughter Rhaenys's face, he may have thought that such face was from a third son/daughter, which, coupled with the prospect that Elia could not have more children, has taken him to seek a "new wife" for such a task. I do not think that's true, but I admit its plausibility. But this does not imply that this "wife" should be Lyanna.

My problem with this "prophetic interpretation" is that, apparently, Rhaegar identified "born amidst smoke and salt" with "born at Dragonstone". Aemon apparently interpreted that way, because in the end he has come to believe that the "prince" was Daenerys, who was born at Dragonstone. Both Rhaenys and Aegon were born there. Why this third prince/princess wouldn't be born there?

[Rippounet]

Except of course we know that he should realize that, since he is the one that joined that phrase to the PtwP.

It seems to me that we have:

1. A Song of Ice and Fire is intimately connected with the PtwP in Rhaegar's eyes.

2. The Pact of Ice and Fire is something he should know about, an old treaty between the Starks and Targaryens

3. He chooses Miss Stark Ice-girl to create his 3rd head when Plan A proved unworkable.

Your argument is that 3. is random luck, despite 1 and 2, and not conscious design?

Kind of. As Marcel pointed out, we don't know what a "song" is in "a song of Ice and Fire," but obviously Rhaegar originally thought it meant something else than a "pact" or "child."

It could mean many different things. People assume it means a Stark-Targaryen child when they already think R+L=J.

The reverse though, for Rhaegar, realizing that the song means a child, and thus that he has to abduct Lyanna, is quite a leap of logic and faith. More importantly, since we don't know what Rhaegar originally thought this "song" was, I wouldn't be so quick to say he changed his mind about it. For all we know, he even could have died still thinking Aegon was TPtwP!

Of course the nature and content of this song is likely to reveal the end of the series. Yet, people who assume the song is Jon or is about Jon don't have that much to say about the endgame or about Dany.

Given what we know so far, I think Jon is only Ice, while Dany is Fire, and the song is about them both bringing balance back to the elements, the seasons and the world. I even tend to think Dany is really TPtwP, while Jon is AA, or that they both are both, after a fashion. Oh yeah, and while we're at it, one of them dies for the other in the end. And the dragons die too. And the Daynes and Blackwoods are really really important. ;)

Yes, that's crackpot. But I'm just pointing out that saying Jon is "the Prince" and that the "song" is his hardly explains much. If Rhaegar thought the song could be about Aegon, then the song is more likely to be a story/narrative than a blood pact.

Also, is there any salt at the ToJ? It's not exactly close to the sea, is it? So why would Rhaegar bring Lyanna there?

And what data supports Aerys sending men after her? Mind you,you siad it was crackpot, and absence of data is what defines those... :cool4:

Yes. And that's food for another topic:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128752-rl-j-an-alternative-explanation-for-roberts-rebellion/

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Here's a thought on the possibility of Aerys ordering Lyanna's arrest...

It's been a while since Harrenhal and Rhaegar figures it's probably safe to tell dad the truth about that KotLT business now, because he's been acting a bit more sane for the last few weeks.

Rhaegar: So, uh, dad. You know that short guy with the tree shield at Harrenhal? [Laughing] You're gonna love this. It was a girl! Ha ha! A girl beat three knights! Isn't that hilarious?"

Aerys: [stoned silence, followed by] And you know who this girl is, I take it?

Rhaegar: [no longer laughing] Well I uh...

Aerys: And you didn't tell me.

Rhaegar: Well technically...

Aerys: Technically? I might technically name your brother as next in line. Technically, I don't like your Dornish wife, or her daughter. I want that girl arrested. Now! And since you didn't do as I commanded before, YOU will bring her to me!

Rhaegar: Oops.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

WHY DID RHAEGAR GIVE LYANNA A GARLAND OF BLUE ROSES ?

A simple response ; YOU CHOOSE .

1 RESPECT; She was the visiting daughter of a lord paramount , as the KOLT her victory in the tourney.

2 HONOR ; Her stance for the weak.

3SINFUL ; She was the hottest thing there and he wanted her .

4 SINISTER ;Secret, secret I have a secret . To let all who has eyes know that Lyanna or the Starks are the KOLT.

5 STAND IN ; Because Arthur Dayne could not because he lost .

[corbon]

The fact that there was a pact of ice and fire between House Stark and House Targaryen does not imply that every mention of ice and fire in Asoiaf is related to both. Ice is also associated with the Others, and Rhaegar would be familiar with such mythology from his correspondence with Aemon, if not from his own readings. The mention of such pact could be just one of the author's artifices to direct our minds to associate any mention of ice and fire with the Starks and Targaryen.

Kind of. As Marcel pointed out, we don't know what a "song" is in "a song of Ice and Fire," but obviously Rhaegar originally thought it meant something else than a "pact" or "child."

It could mean many different things. People assume it means a Stark-Targaryen child when they already think R+L=J.

The reverse though, for Rhaegar, realizing that the song means a child, and thus that he has to abduct Lyanna, is quite a leap of logic and faith.

I guess the point wasn't clear, because you guys seems to have missed it slightly.

I'm not saying anything significant about the song or the pact. I'm just suggesting that if Rhaegar is suddenly looking for an alternative to Elia (as he must), and his mind goes back to the KotLT girl, he knows she's a Stark, he knows her family is represented as ice, and their families joined as "Ice and Fire" and thats already a prophetically significant phrase to him. Given that we know he does choose Miss Stark, its a clear progression to guess that there is a significant connection made there.

I don't know what that connection, or conclusion was, and I'm not even offering a suggestion there (not willing to making the leap of logic and faith you claim, though frankly its not very much of a leap really), but it beggars belief that he randomly chose ice-girl and only then realised the connection.

WHY DID RHAEGAR GIVE LYANNA A GARLAND OF BLUE ROSES ?

A simple response ; YOU CHOOSE .

1 RESPECT; She was the visiting daughter of a lord paramount , as the KOLT her victory in the tourney.

2 HONOR ; Her stance for the weak.

3SINFUL ; She was the hottest thing there and he wanted her .

4 SINISTER ;Secret, secret I have a secret . To let all who has eyes know that Lyanna or the Starks are the KOLT.

5 STAND IN ; Because Arthur Dayne could not because he lost .

:bang:

Try 6. Because that was the prize set up by the Whents before the tourney, when anyone could have won it. They are rare and beautiful flowers after all, suitable for any QoLaB, not just Lyanna Stark. Its only the literary connection, to us the readers, that ties them with Lyanna Stark.

[Marcel]

I guess the point wasn't clear, because you guys seems to have missed it slightly.

I'm not saying anything significant about the song or the pact. I'm just suggesting that if Rhaegar is suddenly looking for an alternative to Elia (as he must), and his mind goes back to the KotLT girl, he knows she's a Stark, he knows her family is represented as ice, and their families joined as "Ice and Fire" and thats already a prophetically significant phrase to him. Given that we know he does choose Miss Stark, its a clear progression to guess that there is a significant connection made there.

I don't know what that connection, or conclusion was, and I'm not even offering a suggestion there (not willing to making the leap of logic and faith you claim, though frankly its not very much of a leap really), but it beggars belief that he randomly chose ice-girl and only then realised the connection.

I must say I understood your point. Perhaps, because English is not my native language, it was me who wasn't clear. I disagree that Rhaegar would, based on the "Ice" from the song, look for an "Ice" from the pact. I disagree that he would make such connection between the first "ice" and the second "ice". I believe that any decision to abduct the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North would have a better justification, not just a connection between two unrelated sentences only because they share some similar terms.

So Rhaegar acted based on this:

My son is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire. Because the dragon has three heads, he needs another brother/sister. My lady wife, who is not of fire, can not have more children. For some reason I have to resolve this issue urgently, so I will seek an ice girl, who, because of the pact of ice and fire, must be a Stark, to generate this child and fulfill the prophecy. Even better if she has great physical vigor and is honorable, something I know because she was the KotLT. Yeah, let's seek Lyanna Stark.

Did I miss something?

[Marcel]

WHY DID RHAEGAR GIVE LYANNA A GARLAND OF BLUE ROSES ?

A simple response ; YOU CHOOSE .

1 RESPECT; She was the visiting daughter of a lord paramount , as the KOLT her victory in the tourney.

2 HONOR ; Her stance for the weak.

3SINFUL ; She was the hottest thing there and he wanted her .

4 SINISTER ;Secret, secret I have a secret . To let all who has eyes know that Lyanna or the Starks are the KOLT.

5 STAND IN ; Because Arthur Dayne could not because he lost .

The crown of blue winter roses was meant to Brandon Stark, as a reprimand.

[corbon]

I must say I understood your point. Perhaps, because English is not my native language, it was me who wasn't clear. I disagree that Rhaegar would, based on the "Ice" from the song, look for an "Ice" from the pact. I disagree that he would make such connection between the first "ice" and the second "ice". I believe that any decision to abduct the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North would have a better justification, not just a connection between two unrelated sentences only because they share some similar terms.

So Rhaegar acted based on this:

My son is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire. Because the dragon has three heads, he needs another brother/sister. My lady wife, who is not of fire, can not have more children. For some reason I have to resolve this issue urgently, so I will seek an ice girl, who, because of the pact of ice and fire, must be a Stark, to generate this child and fulfill the prophecy. Even better if she has great physical vigor and is honorable, something I know because she was the KotLT. Yeah, let's seek Lyanna Stark.

Did I miss something?

Yes.

Not "I have to find an Ice girl, what candidates do I have".

More like "I need another woman to give me the third head. Brave, honourable, a fighter (metaphorically, what with the political and family situation with Aerys and the Martells) and hopefully beautiful too. The KotLT girl seems like a good candidate. Wait, she was a Stark. Fire and Ice - well, that seals it really, it must be her."

I guess that kind of a eureka moment, but what I'm suggesting is more of a 'I'm heading in this direction and eureka, I just realised the gods must be pushing me in that same direction" kind of thing, rather than a sudden completely out of the blue eureka moment that changes everything for him.

I really have to question the thought that he wouldn't make the connection between the Song of Ice and Fire and the Pact of Ice and Fire. Why the heck not? Its not two unrelated sentences with 'some similar terms', its a massively significant prophetic term, one that he literally acts on to actually make real. He's famously smart, he must have made the connection.

We know he eventually chose the Ice girl. We know he'd changed his mind before about the prophecy. I'd suggest he might (or might not) have changed his mind about which son was the PtwP after he realised that he could actually make a child whose origin literally was Fire and Ice.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

In layman terms--

He wanted to hit it B)