Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

[Tagganaro]

Well, you're not asking me, but I think the problem of book!Dorne (at least for me) is that Arianne wasn't the only POV from the start. Hotah and Oakheart really took a dump in that storyline, in my opinion. And funnily enough, the show is kind of doing the same thing by making uninteresting characters the focus of Dorne, instead of using the more layered and developed Arianne.

Don't forget about Quentyn either. That's 4 different POVs all about Dorne, when 1 should have been more than sufficient. I had the same problem with the Iron Islanders. You already have Theon and Asha, then you're adding Damphair and Vic?

If the book focused on Arianne alone it would have been much better and more concise.

[DemiNymph]

Were the SS every supposed to be "warriors"? That's the one mistake the show is making. They are not.

I suppose Oberyn never intended their training to mean he was sending them to war. Any other knight could tear them apart one by one. Their training is more like a way to give them some sense of power and empowerment. He wasn't raising knights. He was raising women who weren't let any man try to step on them.

The weaponry is also not a norm for them. Only Obara and Nym handle weapons (the younger ones are a case of their own)..Tyene uses poison and Sarella has a bow like many other women in Westeros can handle a bow (Margaery, IICR). To me, looks like Sarella would rather go to "College" than try to be a warrior/soldier/fighter like Obara or Elia but she still knows how to take care of herself.

The show is making all of them to be caricature warriors. Their background in the book is irrelavent as clearly the show is not following this. If you're telling us to give them some slack in the show because in the books they weren't all trained as warriors, no, this explanation doesn't fly. They are meant to be badass warriors who can split a head in the sand and throw a dagger into the head's skull. So don't tell us they are some sort of private kungfu practitioners.

In the show they were fighting 3 vs 2 against Bronn and a cripple. It's counted as a personal fight, not a war scenario. And they still can't win. That's really lameass. All 3 were terrible at fighting, even Obara. There's no excuse for that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In the books, the Sand Snakes have potential. It's hinted that they are popular enough to stir up the populace, thus needing to be locked up. The older ones are known to have deadly skills, and it's possible that men would follow them into battle, Obara being the most likely leader for that. Tyene looks innocent and acts pious but poisons people--that has definite possibilities!

It's not what we've seen of them but what we haven't seen yet that tantalizes. If they can keep themselves in check and work with Uncle Doran, they can wreak some serious havoc. One has been dispatched to help hunt down Darkstar, two are on the way to King's Landing, one is going with Arianne to meet with the supposed Aegon Targaryen, and it's now an open secret in fandom that Sarella is at the Citadel and is an ace shot with that bow of hers.

They have been set up for possible greatness. They could also crash and burn. But whatever happens with them will definitely be entertaining...in the books, that is.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

double post

[DemiNymph]

Don't forget about Quentyn either. That's 4 different POVs all about Dorne, when 1 should have been more than sufficient. I had the same problem with the Iron Islanders. You already have Theon and Asha, then you're adding Damphair and Vic?

If the book focused on Arianne alone it would have been much better and more concise.

I totally do not mind if the show cut Quentyn. Hell GRRM should have cut him. We all saw how that storyline burnt out. (Hah, get it? Burnt out.) It was interesting but a complete red herring and a waste of time in story development. All that building up and a massive let down. He wasn't even sympathetic or good enough of a character to be sad over when he got fried. I only got frustrated at my time being wasted at following a storyline with zero payoff again.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I totally do not mind if the show cut Quentyn. Hell GRRM should have cut him. We all saw how that storyline burnt out. (Hah, get it? Burnt out.) It was interesting but a complete red herring and a waste of time in story development. All that building up and a massive let down. He wasn't even sympathetic or good enough of a character to be sad over when he got fried. I only got frustrated at my time being wasted at following a storyline with zero payoff again.

I don't agree. Him being rejected by Dany and then getting killed is what will make Dorne hate Dany. And he also frees the dragons.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I totally do not mind if the show cut Quentyn. Hell GRRM should have cut him. We all saw how that storyline burnt out. (Hah, get it? Burnt out.) It was interesting but a complete red herring and a waste of time in story development. All that building up and a massive let down. He wasn't even sympathetic or good enough of a character to be sad over when he got fried. I only got frustrated at my time being wasted at following a storyline with zero payoff again.

Agreed, and if the Vale storyline turns out to be a dead end plot too (as some people think), I would throw my book out the fucking window.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, you're not asking me, but I think the problem of book!Dorne (at least for me) is that Arianne wasn't the only POV from the start. Hotah and Oakheart really took a dump in that storyline, in my opinion. And funnily enough, the show is kind of doing the same thing by making uninteresting characters the focus of Dorne, instead of using the more layered and developed Arianne.

I agree that H and O might have been dull, but they aren't the focus of Dorne just because they had PoVs.

About Nym being a politician, we don't know. She's rude to Doran because he's still her uncle and she's mad. She knows he won't hurt her, bastard or not. Also, he's sending her because he knows a female bastard will cause havoc there, not because he's expecting her to negotiate alliances or anything. BUt hey, he's also sending his daughter to seduce a gay guy, so who the f knows.

[Biglose]

The sand snakes are lame in both mediums, and I don't think I've ever seen someone argue that they were awesome in AFFC (less awful =/= great, or even good). Trying to shut down criticism on that basis is attacking a strawman.

Consider all the characters and storylines that D&D need to cut. Beric and Thoros haven't appeared since season 3, Edmure and the Blackfish have disappeared, Stoneheart doesn't exist, Yara/Asha pops up once a season to do something that is completely irrelevant, Victarion, Aeron and Euron don't exist, JonCon and Aegon don't exist, and there are likely more I'm forgetting.

All these characters and the stories relating to them are being cut to make way for characters that, like, two people enjoy. Why did D&D prioritize Nym, Tyene and Obara Sand, daughter of Oberyn Martell(!) over everything else? That's deserving of criticism.

Because they are closer to the main story. Jesus. You could be asking why is somebody taking a minute to explain differential equations in physics but does not talk about the political situation in the middle east. The sand snakes are an aspect of a story, Victarion is an entire storyline.

That sounds to me a little bit like criticism for criticisms sake. (Which is actually a lot I hear inside forums and the media as far as GoT is concerned...)

The book fans are bugged out because the show goes so far off the book and is still quite fine and the non-book reader can't deal with the style of the show (which is also present in the book). Everything can happen nothing is holy. Characters go from pawn to player und back to pawn to dead body in the blimps of an eye.

@ovis alba

Dorne to me is really what completely falls flat for me this season and for once not for any book comparison reasons but for purely this is what we get to see on TV - reasons. The scene last episode to me almost seemed like slapstik, which is not only but also due to the sand snakes, but also the whole timing and Jaime and Bronn "sneaking" in and the fight choreographie and cutting of the scene, I've watched with a few non-bookreaders and everyone just felt the whole scene and characters in it felt "cheap" and not at all fitting into the overall series.

Because it is cheap. I would even arguee that in the book it was even cheaper. At least with adding jamie they gave it a direction to go instead of just beeing a waste of time.

Like already said: Tried, failed arrested. At least they give jamie a coverstory and looking back a reason, thats more than what the sand snakes in the book ever established for the story. As sad as that is.

[DemiNymph]

I don't agree. Him being rejected by Dany and then getting killed is what will make Dorne hate Dany. And he also frees the dragons.

Yes I sort of agree with you there are 2 important things that happened in Quentyn's storyline.

But alternatively, if the plot needs Dany to lose Dorne as an ally, Dorne can always declare for fAegon without Quentyn dying. fAegon is already in Westeros at the end of the book. He is nearer and has a concrete army while Dany is not even there. Anyway Arienne can also offer a marriage alliance to fAegon. That whole Quentyn storyline is not essential if the plot needs Dany to lose Dorne as an ally. And honestly anyone can free the dragons. Just have some disgruntled subordinate do it to get back at Dany, or have a rebellion Meeren plot and a kamikaze guy to unchain them. There are so many alternatives to achieve the same plot objectives without making the reader roll eyes. Quentyn became a zero at the end and his existence did not matter at all and he wasted my time.

To tie this back to the sandsnakes, I would say he is a good example of a gratutiously created character and storyline, unlike the Sandsnakes who at least serve some purpose to enrich Dorne's background and storyline. Their existence showed the different culture, etc and the royal family of Dorne. I was struck with the contrast of how they were treated so differently from other bastards like Jon Snow in other areas of the 7 kingdoms. Dorne seemed to be an important place and it makes sense to devote some efforts to do some worldbuilding for it. Quentyn's story however showed travelling on the sea, got marriage proposal rejected, got BBQed. His story didn't show the readers anything new.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I agree that H and O might have been dull, but they aren't the focus of Dorne just because they had PoVs.

About Nym being a politician, we don't know. She's rude to Doran because he's still her uncle and she's mad. She knows he won't hurt her, bastard or not. Also, he's sending her because he knows a female bastard will cause havoc there, not because he's expecting her to negotiate alliances or anything. BUt hey, he's also sending his daughter to seduce a gay guy, so who the f knows.

But Oreo and Oakheart had awful chapters that could've been Arianne's, so even if they weren't the focus they still hurt Dorne. In my opinion, of course.

Also, I think Doran is sending Arianne to seduce Aegon. As for JonCon,

Daemon Sand

should suffice ;)

[ni2tre]

The Sand Snakes are really poor characters in both book and show. GRRM tried to make Dorne 'badass' with characters like the Sand Snakes and Darkstar but failed pretty badly in achieving that. The show didn't improve them.

Oh well on top of the many great characters created this was bound to happen.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I totally do not mind if the show cut Quentyn. Hell GRRM should have cut him. We all saw how that storyline burnt out. (Hah, get it? Burnt out.) It was interesting but a complete red herring and a waste of time in story development. All that building up and a massive let down. He wasn't even sympathetic or good enough of a character to be sad over when he got fried. I only got frustrated at my time being wasted at following a storyline with zero payoff again.

I didn't like the quentyn stuff(which i was looking forward too) but i feel like him getting bbq'd will make Dorne oppose Dany, which could be big.

[Tagganaro]

I didn't like the quentyn stuff(which i was looking forward too) but i feel like him getting bbq'd will make Dorne oppose Dany, which could be big.

You really don't need POV chapters for that though...The same can be accomplished by Doran mentioning Quentyn's mission, then being picked up when he first arrives at Dany's court in Mereen. You don't need any POV for that to happen. I think it was included because GRRM wanted to actually show him getting burned by the dragon, which could have been accomplished by an epilogue anyway. The POVs were completely unnecessary by any measure imo.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{...} The book fans are bugged out because the show goes so far off the book {...}

Can we please drop this idiotic idea? Because that really isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure that "book fans" understand that things have to be changed, streamlined, left out, etc. They are different mediums and a TV series only has a finite amount of time to cover a huge amount of ground.

What's objectionable is the how and the why of many of the changes being made. Way back in season 1, when Littlefinger was sitting in his brothel egging on a couple of whores who were simulating sex in the background (why, exactly?), he was explaining all of his master plan and motivations to them. Uhhh, what? Or when LF outlined the Hound's backstory to Sansa, with the explanation that the actor wasn't available to do it himself, even though the actor playing the Hound was visible in the background of that very scene?

Not every change from the books is automatically bad. It's just that so many of them are stupid, contrived, badly-done and/or boring. Or, they mutilate the intent of the source material while providing nothing in the way of compensation for doing so.

Book fans are bugged out when the show does stupid things unnecessarily and for stupid reasons. Not for simply deviating from the books; that's not it at all.

[Good Guy Garlan]

You really don't need POV chapters for that though...The same can be accomplished by Doran mentioning Quentyn's mission, then being picked up when he first arrives at Dany's court in Mereen. You don't need any POV for that to happen. I think it was included because GRRM wanted to actually show him getting burned by the dragon, which could have been accomplished by an epilogue anyway. The POVs were completely unnecessary by any measure imo.

Not to derail the thread because of freaking Quentyn, but I agree 100%. And I've never seen a convincing argument that his POV was necessary.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

You really don't need POV chapters for that though...The same can be accomplished by Doran mentioning Quentyn's mission, then being picked up when he first arrives at Dany's court in Mereen. You don't need any POV for that to happen. I think it was included because GRRM wanted to actually show him getting burned by the dragon, which could have been accomplished by an epilogue anyway. The POVs were completely unnecessary by any measure imo.

I think that quentyn may have worked better as a one or two chapter pov. I don't think we really needed to show his journey to Mereen, just show him getting there, getting rejected and trying to free t he dragons. It would have been cool to have Doran do his fire and blood speech, then the next chapter Dany meets Quentyn.

[Jamie Lannister]

Awesome is a strong word, but they were at least quirky and varied. These three are the same bland character.

[aFeastForDragons]

Well, you're not asking me, but I think the problem of book!Dorne (at least for me) is that Arianne wasn't the only POV from the start. Hotah and Oakheart really took a dump in that storyline, in my opinion. And funnily enough, the show is kind of doing the same thing by making uninteresting characters the focus of Dorne, instead of using the more layered and developed Arianne.

Exactly how I felt and even worse that I kept turning every page hoping for a Tyrion or Jon chapter.

SInce they've cut Arianne then what is the point of Dorne? Doran's FIre & Blood speech won't make sense because who will be marrying Dany or originally Viserys. They aren't going to try crown Myrcella. There are no males to marry Dany. It doesn't make much sense and it looks like a complete dead end.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Exactly how I felt and even worse that I kept turning every page hoping for a Tyrion or Jon chapter.

SInce they've cut Arianne then what is the point of Dorne? Doran's FIre & Blood speech won't make sense because who will be marrying Dany or originally Viserys. They aren't going to try crown Myrcella. There are no males to marry Dany. It doesn't make much sense and it looks like a complete dead end.

There is a theory that on the show "Trystane" isn't really Doran's son, but Aegon, Elia and Rhaegar's son. I don't know what this is based on, but if that is the case, it would give Doran the opportunity to give that speech.