Did the show just spoil... *book spoilers, Unsullied beware*

[Cashless Society]

Maybe they'll simply ride AROUND Moat Cailin

Nah, the real LF would just take a boat.

[Mithras]

This all depends on the Davos timeline and how fast if even successful he will be in retrieving Rickon.

There are nearly two months between Davos leaving White Harbor and Theon jumping with Jeyne. So, Davos has plenty of time. After a single POV, he might appear anywhere in the North with Rickon/Shaggy/Osha and a Skagosi host.

[Stannistician]

Could it be possible that the show is substituting the Vale forces for a large Manderly force? Wyman could have ordered a large force to come north after X amount of time after he left to attend the wedding, and this force is waiting for the right moment to strike (another reason to kill the Freys on the journey). Alternatively, a Manderly force could be heading for the twins. Pure speculation. I just don't see the Vale forces moving north in the books given LF's uneasy situation there.

[Lord Damian]

There are nearly two months between Davos leaving White Harbor and Theon jumping with Jeyne. So, Davos has plenty of time. After a single POV, he might appear anywhere in the North with Rickon/Shaggy/Osha and a Skagosi host.

That is what I am hoping for. I suspected in the books that they would be the deciding factor of the battle and the end.

[Johnsmith]

Winterfell and White Harbour mean? I presummed with Winter coming they don't bode well, Manderly's fleet could mean retreat rather then attack? Rather then enter another maelstrom down South

I would be bitterly disappionted if that 8 thousand year old menace, forgotten by everyone, but a handful of watchers and some shadow realm priests, the birthplace of fire, aren't the kind of threat imagined in those stories of old. That misplaced horn doesn't bring the kind of doom, remembered by the words of the North.

How it proceeds on the show? Who can say with Littlefinger everywhere and nowhere. I am surprised he didn't ask to be hand or king. Settling for Lord protector of the Vale and Warden of the North, which was like half the 7 kingdoms Cersei agreed to. To go along with Harrenhal from Tywin earlier

[JonisHenryTudor]

Could it be possible that the show is substituting the Vale forces for a large Manderly force? Wyman could have ordered a large force to come north after X amount of time after he left to attend the wedding, and this force is waiting for the right moment to strike (another reason to kill the Freys on the journey). Alternatively, a Manderly force could be heading for the twins. Pure speculation. I just don't see the Vale forces moving north in the books given LF's uneasy situation there.

Or LF is blowing smoke up Cersei's....well you get the picture.

He told Sansa he would return, and he told Cersei that he would bring the Vale knights north. Why are we assuming that is exactly what LF is going to do?

Think about it. He tells Sansa he will return to comfort her. Then he leaves. He then tells Cersei that he will take the Vale north to wipe out her enemies to comfort her.

IIRC, He never tells Sansa that he is returning with an army. I see two lies here for his gain. Maybe LF is not as stupid as some are accusing him of? Also in the Vale scene, he does not mention anything about moving the Vale lords north. I think LF played the audience.

He got Sansa to do what she wanted, and he got from Cersei what he wanted. As always, I see LF swooping in at the last moment and sliding into whatever role suits his plans best.

[Stannistician]

Or LF is blowing smoke up Cersei's....well you get the picture.

He told Sansa he would return, and he told Cersei that he would bring the Vale knights north. Why are we assuming that is exactly what LF is going to do?

Think about it. He tells Sansa he will return to comfort her. Then he leaves. He then tells Cersei that he will take the Vale north to wipe out her enemies to comfort her.

IIRC, He never tells Sansa that he is returning with an army. I see two lies here for his gain. Maybe LF is not as stupid as some are accusing him of? Also in the Vale scene, he does not mention anything about moving the Vale lords north. I think LF played the audience.

He got Sansa to do what she wanted, and he got from Cersei what he wanted. As always, I see LF swooping in at the last moment and sliding into whatever role suits his plans best.

That's a good point, but I still don't see how he could become Warden of the North if the Boltons win and he does nothing. Then again, maybe he does not really want to become Warden of the North, he only wants Cersei to think she gave him what he wanted.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

I just don't see him using the Vale against Stannis as A) it will be hard to rally the Vale to such a cause as most of the Vale like the Starks and Baratheons, Sansa is going along with idea Stannis will save her so if he succeeds there is no way she will help a cause and might go as far as to spill the beans on Aunt Lysa to stop LF from doing so, and C) He would only be helping Cersei who even he knows is most likely on the way out

[JonisHenryTudor]

That's a good point, but I still don't see how he could become Warden of the North if the Boltons win and he does nothing. Then again, maybe he does not really want to become Warden of the North, he only wants Cersei to think she gave him what he wanted.

The Boltons would have to lose, or Roose killed in the very least. I don't think the title of warden is inheritable, or is it? If not, Roose's death opens that up. Still he would need to enforce it somehow.

I think we are going to need a bit more to see his plans hash out, but the inconsistencies in his dealing with the three groups (Sansa, the Vale, and Cersei) makes it seem that LF is playing puppeteer for something else not yet revealed. It almost seems reminiscent of Tywin during RR. Also I think there is more to the Bolton/LF alliance than they let us know. We know part of the deal was to hand Sansa over, but what did LF receive.

[dannyk65]

Nah, the real LF would just take a boat.

BoatFinger

[Stannistician]

The Boltons would have to lose, or Roose killed in the very least. I don't think the title of warden is inheritable, or is it? If not, Roose's death opens that up. Still he would need to enforce it somehow.

I think we are going to need a bit more to see his plans hash out, but the inconsistencies in his dealing with the three groups (Sansa, the Vale, and Cersei) makes it seem that LF is playing puppeteer for something else not yet revealed. It almost seems reminiscent of Tywin during RR. Also I think there is more to the Bolton/LF alliance than they let us know. We know part of the deal was to hand Sansa over, but what did LF receive.

Well I hope your right that something else will be revealed and its not a case of D & D weaving to big of a web. The question of what did LF receive has bothered me since this whole plotline began. I think Roose would have been extremely suspicious and likely would not have agreed to the arrangement had LF not asked for anything in return.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Well I hope your right that something else will be revealed and its not a case of D & D weaving to big of a web. The question of what did LF receive has bothered me since this whole plotline began. I think Roose would have been extremely suspicious and likely would not have agreed to the arrangement had LF not asked for anything in return.

I agree. It would have been highly suspicious for him to just hand Sansa over without anything in return.

Do you remember that scene with Renly where LF tells him that he could arrive at KL in a prolonged siege or find the doors opened?

I wonder if something similar is at play here? Well hopefully "The Gift" gives us more....

[Hayyoth]

The Boltons would have to lose, or Roose killed in the very least. I don't think the title of warden is inheritable, or is it? If not, Roose's death opens that up. Still he would need to enforce it somehow.

I think we are going to need a bit more to see his plans hash out, but the inconsistencies in his dealing with the three groups (Sansa, the Vale, and Cersei) makes it seem that LF is playing puppeteer for something else not yet revealed. It almost seems reminiscent of Tywin during RR. Also I think there is more to the Bolton/LF alliance than they let us know. We know part of the deal was to hand Sansa over, but what did LF receive.

I think you're giving the show writers too much credit, I reckon they're just putting LF wherever they need him to be to progress the plot, but OK lets think this through. What would Roose give LF for Sansa? What does he have to give? Not much that LF can use. He can't spare men to ride south to help him secure the Vale or further his claim on the RL (do the Riverlands still exist on the show?). The only thing I can think of is safe passage North, the Boltons do still control Moat Cailin after all, but why would LF want to bring an army north, assuming the Vale Lords obey him, and why would the Boltons let him bring an army north? In the Show universe Stannis has a much bigger army than Roose (presumably because Stannis brought way more with him compared to the books and also the northern Lords supporting Roose don't seem to exist in the show). So LF has offered to support Roose in his fight against Stannis and Roose is desperate enought to accept and to seal the deal he gives him Sansa. But why on Earth would LF be doing such a thing? Is he looking to double cross Roose, rally the North under Sansa? Seems a hell of a long bow to draw.

[JonisHenryTudor]

^^ Perhaps. But I think it is far too early to simply write the show writers off. The northern arc needs to be completed before we can make judgement. Part of the issue is that is does not make sense to us because it deviates. Perhaps it is better to see it from a show only perspective and how the characters interact on the show. Forget the books for a second.

I doubt LF is being written sloppily, and I think there is a plan there. Whether it works or not, we cannot really make a precise claim until it all plays out. Otherwise were are just assuming we know what D&D are doing and what LF will do. Both of those assumptions could be wrong, which is the heart of my comment (not the one you quoted, the one above).

[Lovely Lyanna]

This. If that plot turns out to be a shaggy dog story (hur hur) then there might be a window of opportunity for Sansa and LF to wreck shit up.

yeah, I think this is going to be a factor in both the show and books.

:agree:

Finally, someone said it. I am looking for LF and Sansa to have a large blow out. For some reason a lot of people have really gotten on the Sansa bandwagon, thus leading to all the fussing about her storyline in the show. They do not seem to mind Jayne Poole having to endure Ramsay in the books, but Saintly Sansa cannot possibly be made to suffer. I am afraid the Sansa story is not going to be that successful in either the show or the books.

I like the character in the show and in the books. I think Sophie does an excellent job of portraying her, but I am just do not see her as a heroine. Of course everyone says the North Remembers, but what the North remembers may be that Sansa betrayed here father to Cersei. I do understand that she was a kid, but she still should have had better sense and not been so selfish.

[JonisHenryTudor]

:agree:

Finally, someone said it. I am looking for LF and Sansa to have a large blow out. For some reason a lot of people have really gotten on the Sansa bandwagon, thus leading to all the fussing about her storyline in the show. They do not seem to mind Jayne Poole having to endure Ramsay in the books, but Saintly Sansa cannot possibly be made to suffer. I am afraid the Sansa story is not going to be that successful in either the show or the books.

I like the character in the show and in the books. I think Sophie does an excellent job of portraying her, but I am just do not see her as a heroine. Of course everyone says the North Remembers, but what the North remembers may be that Sansa betrayed here father to Cersei. I do understand that she was a kid, but she still should have had better sense and not been so selfish.

I am not sure the North is completely aware of what happened in KL at the time. Any word coming north they probably expected to be from Cersei and likewise did not believe much of it. Those who accompanied Ned were virtually all wiped out. I don't think any escaped. Even then I would imagine they would give her a pass; after all she was under intense pressure.

[Lovely Lyanna]

I am not sure the North is completely aware of what happened in KL at the time. Any word coming north they probably expected to be from Cersei and likewise did not believe much of it. Those who accompanied Ned were virtually all wiped out. I don't think any escaped. Even then I would imagine they would give her a pass; after all she was under intense pressure.

You are probably correct that the North does not know she betrayed Ned. I just do not give her a pass on her behavior and I think she has to pay for her mistake by suffering. Do not get me wrong, I like the character just as I like Theon, but both of them betrayed people they should have been loyal to and I find it somewhat fitting that they now will suffer for those betrayals at the hands of the same person.

I do understand the Sansa was young, but given the time period, she should have been a lot more mature and known enough not to betray her father. I could have seen her flouncing around in a snit and pouting, but to do what she did was rather unforgivable.

[Ser Lepus]

How are the knights of the Vale supposed to get North in the midst of the winter? It's a logistical impossibility.

The show writers care about distances and travel conditions even less than GRRM, and GRRM has teleporting ships...

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

You are probably correct that the North does not know she betrayed Ned. I just do not give her a pass on her behavior and I think she has to pay for her mistake by suffering. Do not get me wrong, I like the character just as I like Theon, but both of them betrayed people they should have been loyal to and I find it somewhat fitting that they now will suffer for those betrayals at the hands of the same person.

I do understand the Sansa was young, but given the time period, she should have been a lot more mature and known enough not to betray her father. I could have seen her flouncing around in a snit and pouting, but to do what she did was rather unforgivable.

Well, Sansa certainly wasn't supposed to be a hero or a player in the early drafts, though it's not impossible that that's where she'll end up. I certainly don't hold Sansa's choice against her - she had no idea the severity of what was going on. And, as you said she was young. I don't know why you'd be upset with her for acting her age just because some people in Westeros are forced to grow up at a very young age - she had a sheltered life. There was no reason for her to be mature. And she has suffered - her whole family (as far as she knows) is dead.

Anyway, that's quite irrelevant, we can agree to disagree, my point was actually supposed to simply be that Martin certainly did not initially plan to make her a player, so it's not surprising if people don't see her story going in that direction.

As for the OP, I don't know if it's a spoiler. I think LF must be thinking of taking the North through Sansa - her claim there is basically why she's important. But I can't see him making a move in WoW and I think there'll be more pressing matters come ADoS. LF still has to secure the vale in the books, and I doubt he'll rush to take the North in the middle of winter.

[kissdbyfire]

I am not sure the North is completely aware of what happened in KL at the time. Any word coming north they probably expected to be from Cersei and likewise did not believe much of it. Those who accompanied Ned were virtually all wiped out. I don't think any escaped. Even then I would imagine they would give her a pass; after all she was under intense pressure.

Hallis Mollen is still out there somewhere with an honour guard, right? Just saying. I don't think it matters here... :)