Why do some Essosi still use bronze?

[Nihlus]

When Daenerys buys her Unsullied, she notes that all of them are just wearing tunics, shields... and bronze helmets. When she has an army outside of her city laying siege to it, some of the "soldiers" are noted as carrying bronze shields. When she comes to the city of Meereen, their champion rides out wearing bronze scale armor. When she has an honor guard in Qarth, it consists of men on camels in copper scale armor (was copper armor ever even a thing?).

How far does this go? Are the spears and swords bronze too? In any case, despite being extremely primitive in military matters compared to Westeros (chariots, slingers, hoplites, a huge amount of troops with little to no training or armor...), the Essosi still can craft iron and steel weapons. So why do these guys, who are all supposed to be the cream of the crop for their respective regions, all wear bronze?

[The Emberheart]

Abundance perhaps. I believe in the medieval ages, that which is now europe had a lot of iron beneath the surface which made it easy to create plenty of weapons and armours, where if something broke you'd replace it without a second thought. Yet other parts of the world lacked it. In fact, places like Japan were said to make their sword, the katana, a cutting weapon because they couldn't afford to waste steel by smashing it against eachother until it'd break like we did in the west. Their swords were made from 'black sand', sand washed ashore which held particles of iron, which upon being molten was folded hundreds of times because the quality was so horrible that not folding it that often would mean the blade was way too brittle. Later on, Japan quietly began to import western steel for its quality.

On topic, I think the Essosi may have had a similar problem, having little iron and a lot of bronze to spare. It might be that simple.

[hodorisfaclessman]

When Daenerys buys her Unsullied, she notes that all of them are just wearing tunics, shields... and bronze helmets. When she has an army outside of her city laying siege to it, some of the "soldiers" are noted as carrying bronze shields. When she comes to the city of Meereen, their champion rides out wearing bronze scale armor. When she has an honor guard in Qarth, it consists of men on camels in copper scale armor (was copper armor ever even a thing?).

How far does this go? Are the spears and swords bronze too? In any case, despite being extremely primitive in military matters compared to Westeros (chariots, slingers, hoplites, a huge amount of troops with little to no training or armor...), the Essosi still can craft iron and steel weapons. So why do these guys, who are all supposed to be the cream of the crop for their respective regions, all wear bronze?

The dornish also wear copper scale too grmm mentioned its because its flashy...like bronze royce steel will be underneath

The slavers have bronze discs in their cloaks ,their champ ornate covered armour ...its all extravagance itl shine nicely in the sun ,slavers bay and dorne are sunny places.

The unsullied have bronze helmets but thats likely just a tradition thing

There were some semi naked slaves a woman lord had with ornate bronze hields but again thats all for show....the clanker lords seem to be all about style,they are so convinced they have this won they are trying to outdo eachother in sheer flamboyance

In short its all about appearance

Weapons wise itl be steel for the most part.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tradition.

Basically all these "militaries" ceased to exist with the Valyrian Conquest in the late Bronze/early Iron Age and were revived later in their predecessor's image.

But that's just the armor. Material makes less of a difference in armor.

Abundance perhaps. I believe in the medieval ages, that which is now europe had a lot of iron beneath the surface which made it easy to create plenty of weapons and armours, where if something broke you'd replace it without a second thought. Yet other parts of the world lacked it. In fact, places like Japan were said to make their sword, the katana, a cutting weapon because they couldn't afford to waste steel by smashing it against eachother until it'd break like we did in the west. Their swords were made from 'black sand', sand washed ashore which held particles of iron, which upon being molten was folded hundreds of times because the quality was so horrible that not folding it that often would mean the blade was way too brittle. Later on, Japan quietly began to import western steel for its quality.

On topic, I think the Essosi may have had a similar problem, having little iron and a lot of bronze to spare. It might be that simple.

:bs:

Scrap your Hollywood image of European swordfighting and do some actual research, please.

[Alester Florent]

Bronze is a good metal, in many respects superior for weapons manufacture than iron. Good steel is superior, but in a setting like this good steel is still probably not that easy to come by. The main reason bronze fell out of common use wasn't that it was poor quality, but that it was far too expensive: specifically, the tin component is rare. If the Essosi have access to their own tin mines they might find it cheaper to outfit their soldiery in bronze and armour than in steel, and get better results from doing so than if they'd used cheaper mass-produced iron armour.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Bronze is a good metal, in many respects superior for weapons manufacture than iron. Good steel is superior, but in a setting like this good steel is still probably not that easy to come by. The main reason bronze fell out of common use wasn't that it was poor quality, but that it was far too expensive: specifically, the tin component is rare. If the Essosi have access to their own tin mines they might find it cheaper to outfit their soldiery in bronze and armour than in steel, and get better results from doing so than if they'd used cheaper mass-produced iron armour.

That's true for the iron production capabilites of 1,000-0 BC (though not for bladed weapons), but not after that anymore.

[BitsOfBrains]

I think its because they are stupid. Someone mentioned "tradition" which in military terms = stupid.

Oberyn had a shiny shield (was it bronze? I can't remember) because he could use it to blind fools, even more so down in Dorne where its sunny almost all the time.

If it were just a coat of scales over real armor it could serve an officer as a rally point for his men, like an extra banner I suppose.

Other than that I can think of no purpose for it.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Maybe because they think bronze looks prettier than iron or steel.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Oberyn had a shiny shield (was it bronze? I can't remember) because he could use it to blind fools, even more so down in Dorne where its sunny almost all the time.

Copper. But it was just a very thin layer, not the actual core material.

No different than Jaime's gilded armor, or emaille, or simply paint.

[hodorisfaclessman]

for bronze vs iron heres a good article breaking it down

h a pter 1: Introduction
''1.1 THE THING CALLED MICROSTRUCTURE
I may, perhaps, catch your attention by beginning with a quotation. I have chosen
the following passage, which is Winston Churchill's succinct description of the birth of
the Iron Age in Britain:
At this point [» 400 BC] the march of invention brought a new factor
upon the [british] scene. Iron was dug and forged. Men armed with
iron entered Britain from the continent and killed the men of bronze. At
this point we can plainly recognize across the vanished millenniums a
fellow-being. A biped capable of slaying another with iron is evidently to
modern eyes a man and a brother. It cannot be doubted that for smashing
skulls, whether long-headed or round, iron is best.
- Winston S. Churchill, A History of the English-Speaking Peoples, Vol. 1, p. 10
Winston Churchill was individually responsible for a measurable fraction of the
history of his own age and was, perhaps as a consequence, an unusually perceptive commentator
on the histories of others. But in this passage he is wrong. I do not refer to his
social psychology, which I am not competent to judge. He is wrong in his metallurgy.
Modern research has shown that the iron that appeared in Britain at the end of the Late
Bronze Age was, in fact, inferior in its salient mechanical properties to the bronze that
preceded it. Since iron is also less dense than bronze, this metal was in every respect less
suitable for smashing skulls, whether long-headed (Nordic) or round (Mediterranean).
So why change from good bronze to bad iron? I shall return to that point at the
end of the chapter. I first want to excuse Sir Winston. His error is neither uncommon nor
unreasonable. It would be made by almost anyone who is unschooled in materials
science, and by a good many who claim intimate knowledge of the subject. To the
average person the properties of a material are uniquely associated with its name, which
is usually derived from its dominant chemical constituent or the whim of the company
that manufactures it. Almost everyone knows that the Iron Age succeeded the Bronze
Age. The idea that "iron" might be inferior to "bronze" is a possibility that a person who
does not know metallurgy is unlikely to consider. Even physical scientists of impeccable
credentials often assume that the properties of a material are uniquely associated with the
atoms that make it up, and that those properties would be thoroughly understood if we
only mastered behavior at the atomic level.
This notion is wrong. The material we call iron can be made weak (easily bent)
or strong (virtually impossible for a human to bend), ductile (capable of being bent or deformed
into complex shapes without fracture) or brittle (easily broken). Examples of all
of these manifestations of iron are common today and useful in engineering. It follows that when we describe a material as iron we have left out something important. In fact,
we have left out something essential.
That thing that is missing from the designation, iron, is called microstructure.
While the term "iron" describes the nature of the atoms that are present, or at least the
dominant atom type, the term "microstructure" describes how those atoms are arranged.
Both are necessary to understand the properties of iron. The same is true of any other
engineering material. The composition and the microstructure together define the
material; they specify what it is and what engineering properties it will have. Either,
alone, is insufficient.

....

1.4 WHY CHANGE FROM GOOD BRONZE TO BAD IRON?
To return to the question with which I began this chapter, there are a number of
competing theories, and I have described some of them in previous editions of these
notes. However, in keeping with Occam's razor, the most probable reason is also the
simplest. They changed to iron because it was cheap.
In this the British were not unique. They were, in fact, repeating history from the
cradle of civilization in the Middle East more than a millennium earlier. Every society,
from the Hittites forward, changed to iron weaponry as soon as they learned how to make
it, despite the fact that the iron they could make was everywhere inferior to good bronze.
(When Goliath met David, in the biblical account, he was carried iron weapons but
wearing bronze armor. His choices give a pretty good indication of which metal he
thought would do the better job of protecting him.)
Early iron was inferior to good bronze, but it wasn't that bad. And it was plentiful
and cheap. Given a choice between a thousand soldiers armed with iron and half that
number armed with bronze, the wise king invested in iron. In many societies of the
period soldiers were expected to provide their own weaponry. Given that he could afford
fifty arrows tipped with iron or twenty tipped with bronze, the smart soldier made up his
mind very quickly.
Iron is, arguably, the most versatile metal in the periodic table, and metallurgists
gradually learned to make tools and weapons of iron that were far superior to any that
preceded them. But that came much later. In the early days iron dominated the market
because it was available and it was cheap.
If this is the case, can we, in Churchill's words, "plainly recognize across the vanished
millenniums a fellow-being?" Most of us will have little trouble doing that. In
fact, steel's place in the world market today is largely due to the fact that it is relatively
cheap. One can make a better automobile out of more exotic materials, and the owners of grand prix race cars do that. But most of us will continue to buy cars made primarily of
steel and bank the difference in price. A surprisingly large fraction of the materials used
in industry are chosen on the simple basis of cost and availability.''

So yeah this and grmms talking about copper scales on the dornish seem to hint thats its a flash thing

While bronze may be plentiful in slavers bay even then making steel and iron weapons will still be much easier and cheaper , the copper and bronze we see seem to be used by cultures in sunny climates as its shiny but cheaper than gold etc...its s style thing.

The donrish copper scales, quarth honour guard and mereen champ value pomp but prob have decent iron underneath

the slavers cloaks with bronze discs sewn in are just another flamboyant show of wealth and power

ndful

the unsullied prob have bronze helmets and thatsprob it and just for tradition........as for the handful of poor semi naked slaves with intricate bronze shields in the clanker lords forces unde r the danerys wannabe they again seem to be just a flashy touch for a bunch of idiots who seem to think they have the war won already and want a victory in style.

[hiemal]

When Daenerys buys her Unsullied, she notes that all of them are just wearing tunics, shields... and bronze helmets. When she has an army outside of her city laying siege to it, some of the "soldiers" are noted as carrying bronze shields. When she comes to the city of Meereen, their champion rides out wearing bronze scale armor. When she has an honor guard in Qarth, it consists of men on camels in copper scale armor (was copper armor ever even a thing?).

How far does this go? Are the spears and swords bronze too? In any case, despite being extremely primitive in military matters compared to Westeros (chariots, slingers, hoplites, a huge amount of troops with little to no training or armor...), the Essosi still can craft iron and steel weapons. So why do these guys, who are all supposed to be the cream of the crop for their respective regions, all wear bronze?

To me this points to one of my favorite (because it is mine own) crackpot orgin theories: that conditions on Planetos are as they are at least in part because of a disturbance in the nature of time. Congruent cultures that traditionally are seperate (like bronze, iron, and stone age), as well as things like mammoths, direwolves, and even dinosaurs, and the frequently mentioned disparities in recorded history (i.e. almost any mention of any ancient event involves two possible dates- 2 or 4 thousand years, 5 or 10 thousand years ago, etc etc) all hint at something going on.

Time is out of joint, oh cursed spite...

[LaughingStormBaratheon]

Tradition.

Basically all these "militaries" ceased to exist with the Valyrian Conquest in the late Bronze/early Iron Age and were revived later in their predecessor's image.

But that's just the armor. Material makes less of a difference in armor.

:bs:

Scrap your Hollywood image of European swordfighting and do some actual research, please.

Hey man quick question, is it possible for you to reply to someone on this forum without being a condescending douchebag? Like I get that you very obviously think you're superior to... I guess everyone, but for on post, just one, do you think you could take the stick out of your ass and just be pleasant?

[Trigger Warning]

Flavour.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Yep, I think it's just a style thing. I didn't get an impression that GRRM wanted to say "unsullied suck, look, their stuff is made of bronze." Rather, "look, they are shiny."

[Mikkel]

Yep, I think it's just a style thing. I didn't get an impression that GRRM wanted to say "unsullied suck, look, their stuff is made of bronze." Rather, "look, they are shiny."

I agree. Of course, the Unsullied do suck, outside of a very limited range of roles (they absolutely stink as a policing force, for instance).

They'll rule in a "Hold the centre" role against light cavalry and/or idiots (interestingly, the Dothraki are both), but outside of that they're thoroughly overpraised. I hope the story will show this, but I somehow doubt it.

[hodorisfaclessman]

I agree. Of course, the Unsullied do suck, outside of a very limited range of roles (they absolutely stink as a policing force, for instance).

They'll rule in a "Hold the centre" role against light cavalry and/or idiots (interestingly, the Dothraki are both), but outside of that they're thoroughly overpraised. I hope the story will show this, but I somehow doubt it.

to be fair about policing they are foriegn forces facing an insurgency against natives who know their own city who are also well funded and orgainised...thats never something any force can manage well agaisnt

[Mikkel]

to be fair about policing they are foriegn forces facing an insurgency against natives who know their own city who are also well funded and orgainised...thats never something any force can manage well agaisnt

A fair point. The failure to combat the Harpy lies with Dany first and foremost, and I will admit that it's not a job easily accomplished by anyone - I'm just saying that Dany's policies are not helping. Her choice of police force is not great either, but it's not like she has any real alternatives.

Any one of Stannis, Tywin, Randyll Tarly or Roose Bolton would be better suited (there's a reason other than spite that Robert made Stannis rule the notoriously pro-Targaryen Dragonstone), but then they would probably never let themselves get in that position in the first place. Oh, and the Queen of Thorns knows the value of public relations, she would kick the Harpy's ass in a fortnight, misandrist old bat though she is.

[hodorisfaclessman]

A fair point. The failure to combat the Harpy lies with Dany first and foremost, and I will admit that it's not a job easily accomplished by anyone - I'm just saying that Dany's policies are not helping. Her choice of police force is not great either, but it's not like she has any real alternatives.

Any one of Stannis, Tywin, Randyll Tarly or Roose Bolton would be better suited (there's a reason other than spite that Robert made Stannis rule the notoriously pro-Targaryen Dragonstone), but then they would probably never let themselves get in that position in the first place. Oh, and the Queen of Thorns knows the value of public relations, she would kick the Harpy's ass in a fortnight, misandrist old bat though she is.

yep she neither deals with it politicaly well nor has the ruthlessness to put it down with sheer brutality

[Lord Wraith]

If memory serves bronze is still an abundant resource in slavers bay. Also as stated above the slaver cities are descendants of Ghiscari Empire who used copper.

[Daendrew]

First Men used bronze and copper.