[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

[Raksha 2014]

Reminds me of the Greek mythology when Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter to appease the goddess for favorable winds or something. Hopefully Stannis will not do the same, but if he becomes very desperate and pressured especially when his army is dying from the winter...

And look how well that worked out for Agamemnon in the end. Yes, he got the winds by sacrificing Iphigenia; but his daughter's mother was so enraged that she murdered Agamemnon when he came home victorious. If either TV-or-book-Stannis okays the murder of Shireen, I'm done with his character, will fast-forward his scenes, etc.

[dndmn422]

I'm a bit confused about the Lancel business. Lancel stated and the High Sparrow implied that he confessed all his sins when he joined up, which suggests to me that the HS knew about Cersei all along and was just waiting to spring his trap. However, Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was implied to be Lancel's testimony, and Cersei's arrest came after it's implied that Littlefinger provided information about Lancel to Olenna. So did the HS know all along, or did Olenna tip him off?

I think LF meant sweet robin, not sure where that would go though.

We know the HS is smart- I believe he was playing cersei all along just to gain the power he needed and now she's no longer useful, plus getting her in a cell now leaves tommen (conveniently the only real threat to the faith militant) without any trusted advisors.

[Bear Claw]

I think LF must have been talking about someone else. Maybe he is going to get rid of the witness against Loras as he did work for LF in the past.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Bear Claw

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I'm pretty sure Tommen will die this season. :(

I thought the death of one or both of Cerise's children was forshadowed in the prologue to episode 1

Don't get me wrong, I want the Boltons dead as much as the next person, but I highly doubt they're killing off Ramsay or Roose this season. They're the only huge villains the show has right now. If they were to take that away, then they'd take away that "bad guy" element, and you need that kind of element to have a good show.

I agree with you about Sansa though. She wouldn't be able to kill him, at least, right now. Maybe some time in season 6?

I don't think she'll kill Ramsey... But she might wound him.

As far as the Winterfell plot goes, Sansa hasn't gone "full Jeyne", but then, I don't think anybody ever expected that. Against the plot, while this could always be brought up later, there's really no sign here that Sansa being raped is going to be addressed in any manner beyond "Ramsay raped her and she got teary-eyed, but she's a Tough Chick so whatever", which is not going to win the show any points on the Handling of Sexual Assault scale.

There was a lot of yodelling on the previous show thread that HBO, being utter morons, would make it that Sansa would completely forget Ramsey's abuse and go skipping tralala by the end of the season. Anyone still think that'll happen?

I like think there is every promise that they will take it on in a mature way, though there will be criticism regardless.

so another near rape scene.. GiIlly this time. is there any other material they could come up with ? or anything from the actual source material ? for christ's sake

I agree that made me more than a little uncomfortable after the end of e06. I also thought Ghost's appearance was a little contrived.

She was supposedly empowered before.

Oh brother. This is the buzzword apparently.

Other thoughts,

I thought the Dorne scenes were great. Locking Bronn in the same jail as the sand snakes was a nice touch. I really didn't know how that was going to go. Lovely singing voice.

Cersei bringing Margery a gift of "day old venison" was a nice bit of symbolism.

That altar is obviously made of concrete. Just sayin'.

Solid episode.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[Pashernate Reader]

no I'm saying you are nitpicking at things that matter little... I believe the purpose of the gilly scene was to reinforce the fact that there is a growing sect within the NW that are abandoning Jon/Sam which helps set up the ides.

But that's the problem, ya see. If D&D want to show growing tension between the Watch and Jon/Sam, why do it by finding a woman to put in yet another rape scene? Why not simply have an encounter between Sam and those abandoning Jon?

Because rape is D&D's signature move. This isn't a documentary. Everything that happens is the writers' choice.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pashernate Reader

[NikkiG]

I'm a bit confused about the Lancel business. Lancel stated and the High Sparrow implied that he confessed all his sins when he joined up, which suggests to me that the HS knew about Cersei all along and was just waiting to spring his trap. However, Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was implied to be Lancel's testimony, and Cersei's arrest came after it's implied that Littlefinger provided information about Lancel to Olenna. So did the HS know all along, or did Olenna tip him off?

I think Lancel confessed his sins to the High Septon long before Littlefinger's and Olenna's conversation. He has been self-righteous since his introduction in this season and it appears that he would have made a full confession to get this involved in the faith. I think the Cersei's downfall works better if the High Septon was playing her the whole time rather than waiting to be fed information by those who are obviously using the information to benefit their position.

[Lothar]

How is that the best?

What Takyon said. It would be pretty irredeemable if they treated rape as a bump in the road and not something traumatizing. Unrealistic too.

[Sub_Zero94]

I cannot .. cannot ... see Stannis burning his daughter.. unless D&D have some serious vendetta against him, which they kind of had since season 2. but whatever

Queen Selyse, most like will. She is the one who acts as if she could care less about Shireen, talks to and about her in a way you shouldn't talk about the rightful heir of her King. They've also built up the fact that Selyse is Mel's sock puppet

[Colonel Green]

- Jaime/Myrcella scene weirdly acted. Not feeling the Myrcella actress.

Yeah, I'm not impressed so far, but in fairness to her she's gotten nothing in the way of establishing scenes. The character was just dropped into the narrative as if we should already be familiar with her current state of affairs.

I'm a bit confused about the Lancel business. Lancel stated and the High Sparrow implied that he confessed all his sins when he joined up, which suggests to me that the HS knew about Cersei all along and was just waiting to spring his trap. However, Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was implied to be Lancel's testimony, and Cersei's arrest came after it's implied that Littlefinger provided information about Lancel to Olenna. So did the HS know all along, or did Olenna tip him off?

I'm pretty sure it's the latter, which, you're right, doesn't really make sense.

This is a case of bad adaptation writing. In the book, Lancel confessed everything to the High Septon that Cersei had murdered, explaining why that knowledge never went any further; and, obviously, it was a different minion's confession that brought Cersei down. Here they've tried to combine the two, but there was really nothing to indicate that Lancel was holding anything back, so it doesn't make much sense that he apparently kept his worst secret until Olenna somehow talked him into confessing.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Colonel Green

[boojam]

I'm a bit confused about the Lancel business. Lancel stated and the High Sparrow implied that he confessed all his sins when he joined up, which suggests to me that the HS knew about Cersei all along and was just waiting to spring his trap. However, Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was implied to be Lancel's testimony, and Cersei's arrest came after it's implied that Littlefinger provided information about Lancel to Olenna. So did the HS know all along, or did Olenna tip him off?

How come the HS didn't arrest LF for running a brothel?

[sj4iy]

So, is anyone else wondering if Sansa is going to have something to do with Jon finding out his parentage?

I mean, think of it:

1. She learned that Jon Snow is LC of the Night's Watch;

2. She finds out about the Tourney at Harrenhal;

3. She is replacing fArya, and in the books

fArya is sent back to Castle Black.

By no means am I creating a conspiracy...it may be a complete coincidence given her situation. But it is kind of interesting, when you think about it.

[imp-ty]

A bit hard to keep up with the flurry of posts.

Sansa knows that because of Roose, Ramsey can't hurt her in public. I love that she used her opportunities to get her digs in. I also immediately felt like finding out about Jon at CB screamed pink letter.

She's bruised, but definitely not broken. She's trying to find ways to get out. However, she hasn't seen just how bad Theon's injuries are. I would have been more disappointed if Reek became Theon just because Sansa told him too. I think he'll get there, but it will take more time and effort from Sansa (likely also involving telling her that her brothers are alive as Theon reemerges).

Jon kept Ghost locked up due to Varamyr in the books. Not totally surprised that Ghost stays behind to avoid any warg drama at Hardhome.

Will Mel's suggestion of burning Stannis' daughter get her sent back to CB for the Ides? If king's blood is burned without her standing there, is the power wasted or is it floating around like the power bump all magic got when the dragons were born... or is kb just bs that Mel uses for manipulation... :)

[Newstar]

What Takyon said. It would be pretty irredeemable if they treated rape as a bump in the road and not something traumatizing. Unrealistic too.

Well, D&D are screwed either way. If Sansa appears to be a stronger person for her rape, it will be decried as the "rape as empowerment" trope. If Sansa is traumatized by her rape, it will be decried as more of "Sansa as victim." If Sansa shrugged off the rape with no apparent ill effects, it will be decried as trivializing the suffering of rape victims.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Newstar

[Cubarey]

What is the point of poisoning a supposed enemy if you're going to give him the antidote later?

Think D&D ar playing with us. We all expected Bronn to die from the poisoning as we heard that a couple of characters still alive in the books died this year. Plus, actually we got a little character development from a Sand Snake, cute little girl turns out to be quite the little seductress. Also she asked Bronn how his arm felt then got him excited, obviously she knew that the posion would quicken its effect when his heart beat started to go up. Also by giving Bronn the antidote we get the idea that at least one Sand Snake has both a sense of humor and an sense of morality (does not kill without reason). So like I said an actual Character development from a Sand Snake.

Also proves that at least one of them can actually act.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Cubarey

[Pashernate Reader]

Well, D&D are screwed either way. If Sansa appears to be a stronger person for her rape, it will be decried as the "rape as empowerment" trope. If Sansa is traumatized by her rape, it will be decried as more of "Sansa as victim."

I can't say I feel sorry for them.

[Ross2013]

I'm a bit confused about the Lancel business. Lancel stated and the High Sparrow implied that he confessed all his sins when he joined up, which suggests to me that the HS knew about Cersei all along and was just waiting to spring his trap. However, Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was implied to be Lancel's testimony, and Cersei's arrest came after it's implied that Littlefinger provided information about Lancel to Olenna. So did the HS know all along, or did Olenna tip him off?

I thought the High Sparrow said that he (Lancel) had been unbearing his soul little by little...which led me to believe that it took Lancel awhile to come completely clean (I would think he would have some hesitation). Or, the Sparrow has been playing Cersei for a fool the whole season. Either way works for me.

I also think LF was not referring to Lancel.

[Dragon_Rider]

I think Lancel confessed his sins to the High Septon long before Littlefinger's and Olenna's conversation. He has been self-righteous since his introduction in this season and it appears that he would have made a full confession to get this involved in the faith. I think the Cersei's downfall works better if the High Septon was playing her the whole time rather than waiting to be fed information by those who are obviously using the information to benefit their position.

That's probably most likely--and more interesting. LF and Olenna's conversation was probably a misleading scene to make us think they were talking about Lancel.

[Pashernate Reader]

I thought the High Sparrow said that he (Lancel) had been unbearing his soul little by little...which led me to believe that it took Lancel awhile to come completely clean (I would think he would have some hesitation). Or, the Sparrow has been playing Cersei for a fool the whole season. Either way works for me.

I also think LF was not referring to Lancel.

:agree: Besides, he (Lancel) ain't so pretty anymore.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pashernate Reader

[Tyrions_Big_Toe]

Stannis won't burn shireen because if he did then he would win, and that is too easy. He's gonna make the ultimate sacrifice and NOT burn Shireen and lose everything he's been striving towards. Gonna be a bitter/sweet ending for him.

[Cubarey]

I think Lancel confessed his sins to the High Septon long before Littlefinger's and Olenna's conversation. He has been self-righteous since his introduction in this season and it appears that he would have made a full confession to get this involved in the faith. I think the Cersei's downfall works better if the High Septon was playing her the whole time rather than waiting to be fed information by those who are obviously using the information to benefit their position.

Think the handsome boy Littlefinger was referring to was Gandry since the time line does not fit Lancel.