This week's Sand Snake scene was brought to you by the most beautiful woman in the world (or else) [book spoilers]

[Cas Stark]

We're talking about the jail scene. NOT the Dorish plotline as a whole, not whether the development Tyene received here is an addition to already steady character development, just whether this scene is good. And again, Tyene did not go out her way to poison Bronn, so as to fish compliments out of him. She went after Lannisters, ended up fighting this singer dude, and is now locked in jail with Bronn, whose ended up poisoned in their fight and is working with what's she got from there.

But what 'development' did she get? Screen time doesn't really necessarily equate w/development. The best development of the scene is that her sisters both did major eye rolls when started her striptease...but that's pretty subtle, and still meaningless. So, she likes to use poison and strip. LOL.

I guess it's better than nothing, but heading into ep. 8 it's fucking ridiculous.

Wouldn't it have been better...just an idea thrown out by a random viewer...something more along the lines of seeing Ellaria and the snakes, not in a zena the warrior princess scene, but maybe an interior, where instead of saying oaths and having a guy burried in the sand they may have had a conversation that allowed for some sense of the personalities of the 3?

[protar]

It's a welcome change to the male dominated society the rest of Westeros abides by. She forces Bronn to submit to her female wiles and beauty - and she has the body to pull it off. That's text book female empowerment and I (as a progressive male) really endorse it!

Again - no it isn't. Maybe if they were real people you'd have a (still flawed) point. I mean it would be psychopathic but yes Tyene would be a woman exercising power over a man in a patriarchal society. But Tyene is not a real person. She is not a real woman deciding to take control of her sexuality, rather a bunch of men decided that they'd have a barely legal teenager take her clothes off for no narrative purpose and designed a two episode set up for that scene to happen. This is fanservice, not empowerment.

And in either case forcing men to call you beautiful under pain of death is not the sort of female empowerment that should be presented as a good thing. And indeed the fact that she's apparently psychopathically obsessed with being called beautiful still anchors this in pretty stereotypical gender roles. So if this was supposed to be some sort of girl power fist pump moment it was very poorly done.

In general D+D's writing is appallingly sexist. Which is even worse given that ASOIAF is in my view a very feminist work. I expect they think they're being progressive but they just don't know how to handle women who are traditionally feminine. All women must be forced into the sassy badass "stronk womyn" archetype. Tyene is a pretty great example of that. Arianne's BFF poison expert who weaponises a persona of virginal innocence is turned into a knife wielding femme fatale who flashes her tits at people.

[protar]

First, even if true, that's still a bizarre argument. It's a zero sum exchange, why on Earth should I get my smallclothes in a twist just because they took trait a from character X and gave it to character Y? It's a zero sum exchange. Honestly, it seems like you feel you should dislike the scene and try to invent objective, scientific reasons why it sucks. It's not convincing.

And besides, Tyene didn't steal it from Nym, but from Arianne, who doesn't appear in the show anyway, so it's not as if she needs it for anything. She was the seductress in the book, and she even used her breasts (with huge dark nipples!) in the act.

It's not a zero sum exchange or whatever. They've given Nym no characterisation. Why not spread the development around a bit, make her the seductress and Tyene the poisoner who works under a guise of innocence? And yes Nym is a seductress. We don't see it overtly but she walks around in see through clothes for god's sake.

As for Arianne it's interesting you bring her up. Arianne does indeed use her sexuality, but guess what? Her seduction of Arys took 6 months. She did not just flash her tits at him. And furthermore Arianne's seduction is actually pretty integral to the Queenmaker plot. If it doesn't happen Arianne cannot get to Myrcella. It's a world of difference from the Tyene scene.

[Denam_Pavel]

and designed a two episode set up for that scene to happen.

Doran's scene is the one that they set up to happen. This is just how they are getting there without Arianne, while featuring Bronn and Jaime.

[protar]

Doran's scene is the one that they set up to happen. This is just how they are getting there without Arianne, while featuring Bronn and Jaime.

No I mean, episode 6 we have Bronn getting nicked by Tyene's dagger and then episode 7 we have the nude scene. That's literally the state of the show right now, they set up plot irrelevant nude scenes in previous episodes. At this point I expect they put more thought into the nude scenes than the actual plot it sees.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It's not a zero sum exchange or whatever. They've given Nym no characterisation. Why not spread the development around a bit, make her the seductress and Tyene the poisoner who works under a guise of innocence? And yes Nym is a seductress. We don't see it overtly but she walks around in see through clothes for god's sake.

OMG, you meant, those damn pervs took away Nymeria's see-through clothes? And that's bad, too?

I think I'm done.

[protar]

OMG, you meant, those damn pervs took away Nymeria's see-through clothes? And that's bad, too?

I think I'm done.

Well that's the thing, they didn't take them away they just gave them to Tyene. I'm just saying that if they really needed this nude scene, and if they really wanted to give some character to the Sandsnakes at this late stage, why is it only Tyene getting development and why does she take traits from Nym? That's not good writing. Nym is a complete non-entity on the show and I have no idea why they've decided to basically make Tyene a Tyene/Nym/Elia mishmash while still keeping Nym.

[Dolorous Gabe]

OMG, you meant, those damn pervs took away Nymeria's see-through clothes? And that's bad, too?

I think I'm done.

Straw man.

And you're ignoring protar's very valid arguments by snipping the rest of the post.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Straw man.

And you're ignoring protar's very valid arguments by snipping the rest of the post.

I've addressed them already, no point in repeating myself over and over again. Straw yourself.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

As for Arianne it's interesting you bring her up. Arianne does indeed use her sexuality, but guess what? Her seduction of Arys took 6 months. She did not just flash her tits at him. And furthermore Arianne's seduction is actually pretty integral to the Queenmaker plot. If it doesn't happen Arianne cannot get to Myrcella. It's a world of difference from the Tyene scene.

Oh, sorry, I indeed neglected to shoot down this argument of yours. Forgive me.\

Arianne makes a brief appearance in an early chapter, where she has two lines: "Father, Sunspear rejoices at your return.", and "I have commanded the cooks to prepare a feast for this evening, with all your favorite dishes". It really is not very much. The second chapter she appears in, she whips out her famous nipples. If there were longer periods in Arianne's life where she didn't use them, they weren't interesting enough for the author to write.

On the show, by comparison, Tyene Sand waited to get topless until her third episode, which was also episode 7 of a ten ep. season. That's way more restraint and longer buildup than in the book.

[Denam_Pavel]

Well that's the thing, they didn't take them away they just gave them to Tyene. I'm just saying that if they really needed this nude scene, and if they really wanted to give some character to the Sandsnakes at this late stage, why is it only Tyene getting development and why does she take traits from Nym? That's not good writing. Nym is a complete non-entity on the show and I have no idea why they've decided to basically make Tyene a Tyene/Nym/Elia mishmash while still keeping Nym.

Well if the books are sending Nymeria to the KL to serve on the small council then I'm not surprised that they're keeping her no matter what. Tyene using daggers to transmit poison in battle rather Areo telling us she uses knitting needles in monologue strikes me as a practical change to conform to the visual medium. But they shoulda totally given all Ellaria's scenes and lines too Nymeria and kept Ellaria as the grieving widow. They clearly knew they had to condense the Dorne plot, what made them think they had room to flesh out 4 characters out to avenge Oberyn.

[protar]

Oh, sorry, I indeed neglected to shoot down this argument of yours. Forgive me.\

Arianne makes a brief appearance in an early chapter, where she has two lines: "Father, Sunspear rejoices at your return.", and "I have commanded the cooks to prepare a feast for this evening, with all your favorite dishes". It really is not very much. The second chapter she appears in, she whips out her famous nipples. If there were longer periods in Arianne's life where she didn't use them, they weren't interesting enough for the author to write.

On the show, by comparison, Tyene Sand waited to get topless until her third episode, which was also episode 7 of a ten ep. season. That's way more restraint and longer buildup than in the book.

You can't just ignore all the context that the book set up. Arianne could have been naked in her very first scene (practically was really) and it wouldn't change the fact that she is a.) naked for a very good, plot relevant reason and b.) it's very well established that she is not just flashing her tits at some random stranger, but rather this is a culmination of a long plot. Likewise I wouldn't give a damn if they waited three years for Tyene to get naked. If it was this scene it would still not contribute to the plot.

[protar]

Well if the books are sending Nymeria to the KL to serve on the small council then I'm not surprised that they're keeping her no matter what. Tyene using daggers to transmit poison in battle rather Areo telling us she uses knitting needles in monologue strikes me as a practical change to conform to the visual medium. But they shoulda totally given all Ellaria's scenes and lines too Nymeria and kept Ellaria as the grieving widow. They clearly knew they had to condense the Dorne plot, what made them think they had room to flesh out 4 characters out to avenge Oberyn.

I expect Nym will be important next season yes. Maybe they will even be somewhat bearable in a plot that isn't almost completely invented by D+D. As for why Tyene now has knives it's because D+D cannot write feminine women. All female characters must be as badass as possible.

[nastydream]

lel this thread is hilarious

Firstly you guys Bronn was joking when he said "it is against my code to hurt a woman" ,just a joke don't take it too seriously.

But yeah I agree with protar about everything else.

[kawkav]

Then I am surprised why a 17-year old girl doing nudity is so fucked up to you. I know the show is American, but hey, it's HBO.

she is 19 years and 2 month as of today, where are getting 17 or 16 from?

[protar]

she is 19 years and 2 month as of today, where are getting 17 or 16 from?

She would have very recently turned 18 when filming began. Some mistaken maths had some people thinking she was 17 when she auditioned but apparently she was 18 then as well.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I've addressed them already, no point in repeating myself over and over again. Straw yourself.

:lol: That genuinely tickled me.

I respect you and often agree with you elsewhere, but on this one I'm with protar.

[westerosifitness]

You know what? The Dornish wouldn't give a crap that someone showed their boobs for any reason. Its that girl's business. No reason not to. In their mind, you don't have to have a reason to do something sensual. Its a right of your body and sensuality and reason don't really go together.

A true progressive would not be bothered by the boobiness. These actresses are paid to be naked, and it is something that gets them jobs. They choose these jobs. They weren't forced into the scenes. They use their bodies to get work. Its seriously something that can get you jobs as an actress or actor. Having a great body is marketable.

Yes, I do feel like the scene could have been better set up by letting us know about the Sand Snakes' characters beforehand. We had no setup with Tyene, so we did not know what to think about her acting this way. It did seem random.

Now, what really ruins a scene in terms of sexuality? How about watching Emilia Clarke keeping herself wrapped up like a burrito while Daario is baring all? She even pulls the blankets back up when the actor playing Daario moves them a little bit. Watch their bedtime scenes. All the steaminess is taken out of them because the characters cannot physically interact with each other. Its so distracting, because she is so concerned with covering up every little part of her nakedness that she will break how her character would react to keep herself, Emilia Clarke, feeling as comfortable as possible at the expense of the other actor and the flow of the scene, because she is just too good to be naked on tv anymore.

Its fine if you don't want to show yourself nude as an actress or actor, but when you take on a role of a VERY sexually active lead female, refusing to be naked on screen kind of takes away from the scenes where the character should be a little more sensual. She just lacks all passion now, and I think it really hurts the character. Dany RULES in the bedroom. Dany now comes across as a prude who thinks her poop don't stink. That's what I get from watching her on screen. She thinks she's better than everything around her.

The boobs aren't the problem. They should have set up the boobs by making Tyene a character who would display boobs. I can sympathize with people who think it was random boobs. If Cersei had tried to seduce someone, we would not be surprised. But we don't know this character, so everything she does has no background for us.

Sigh, rambling post, but I wanted to get a few of those points out.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

You know what? The Dornish wouldn't give a crap that someone showed their boobs for any reason. Its that girl's business. No reason not to. In their mind, you don't have to have a reason to do something sensual. Its a right of your body and sensuality and reason don't really go together.

A true progressive would not be bothered by the boobiness. These actresses are paid to be naked, and it is something that gets them jobs. They choose these jobs. They weren't forced into the scenes. They use their bodies to get work. Its seriously something that can get you jobs as an actress or actor. Having a great body is marketable.

{snipped}

I have read this entire thread and I have not seen a single post complaining about the nudity just because it's nudity. It would be much more helpful if you would read the actual criticisms that people are making instead of assuming that people are irritated simply because of boobs.

I don't see what being a "true progressive" or not has anything to do with anything. The complaints are not actually about the boobs, it's about the use to which said boobs are being put.

[teemo]

These actresses are paid to be naked, and it is something that gets them jobs. They choose these jobs. They weren't forced into the scenes. They use their bodies to get work. Its seriously something that can get you jobs as an actress or actor. Having a great body is marketable.

Really? Wow, I never knew that....