Littlefinger was lying about the Purple Wedding

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Alright, I know this has been debated ad nauseum - including by me - so forgive me if I'm rehashing things. And I also know that it's most likely that everything happened just like Littlefinger said.

But what the hell, let's get crazy: let's consider the possibility that Littlefinger was lying to Sansa and had nothing to do with Joffrey's death.

TL DR version

First off, why would he lie? Three reasons:

1. It makes Sansa emotionally fragile, and thus easier to manipulate.
2. It puts her more under Littlefinger's control.
3. It puts a wedge between her and the Tyrells.

Any evidence? Not really. This is the best I can do:

1. Why would the Tyrells involve Littlefinger in such a dangerous plot?
2. Littlefinger's timeline doesn't allow a lot of time for the Tyrells to decide to kill Joffrey and plot with Littlefinger.

But if Littlefinger wasn't involved, who was?

The best alternative is the Tyrells, specifically the Queen of Thorns and/or Garlan. This would make Littlefinger's lie an accurate guess.

A crackpot alternative is Tywin, to replace the unreliable and monstrous Joffrey with the pliable Tommen.

Just as crackpot, but worth mentioning, is Varys, who perhaps thought Joffrey too dangerous and aimed to frame Tyrion.

Alright, but Littlefinger must have been up to something, right?

He was - he was trying to kidnap Sansa. He also aimed to drive a wedge between Joffrey and Tyrion. Joffrey's death was just Littlefinger's extraordinary good fortune.

More details below.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Alright, the long version.

Why would Littlefinger lie?

It makes Sansa emotionally fragile, and thus easier to manipulate.

Sansa's only a teenage girl, and a sensitive one at that. She's probably wished for it ever since he killed her father, but now that she's actually seen Joffrey choke

to death in front of her, she's probably quite rattled. And this on top of the stress of her escape, and that on top of the stress of life as a hostage in Joffrey's court.

And Littlefinger's revelation comes moments after the death of Dontos, the man who saved her. (Although Dontos was probably marked for death regardless.) Now she's got two deaths on her conscience, one of which she wished for. She'll probably have feelings of guilt and shame, which will make her vulnerable to an experienced manipulator.

It puts her more under Littlefinger's control.

Life on the run with Littlefinger is dangerous enough, but now she's an accessory to regicide, and Littlefinger knows it. If she flees him, she doesn't just have to worry about being recaptured, she has to worry about being killed, and the only thing standing between her and the headsman is Littlefinger. She has no choice but to trust him, and even to support him, because his downfall would lead to hers.

It puts a wedge between her and the Tyrells.

She thought they were her friends, but instead they used her to kill a king and planned to steal her to Highgarden. Now she won't trust them, which is fine for Littlefinger: he wants a monopoly on her trust, and he's got it. She won't think she's got friends elsewhere she can run to.

If not Littlefinger, then who?

A crackpot alternative is Tywin, to replace the unreliable and monstrous Joffrey with the pliable Tommen.

Joffrey's mistakes had proved very costly for Tywin. His perversions were likely to alienate other lords. But worse than that, he was already pushing against Tywin's rule, a problem that would only get worse. The last time a king pushed back against Tywin's plans, Tywin backed down, which is very out of character for him. From his perspective, it was probably a mistake, and Tywin does not seem likely to make the same mistake twice.

Another crackpot alternative is Varys, who perhaps thought Joffrey too dangerous and aimed to frame Tyrion.

Joffrey brought Westeros to war long before Varys deemed it necessary, and might again.

Of course, being Varys, he mayn't need to do anything himself. Let's say he knows all about whatever plans are afoot: he just needs to let them happen. This may include Littlefinger's ploy to frame Tyrion. I read somewhere that Varys was fine with Tyrion being executed: unlike Ned Stark, who could be trusted to stay on the Wall, Tyrion might find a way to escape. As for why Varys would want Tyrion out of the picture in the first place: he's a very competent politician with the interests of the people vaguely at heart. He's young, and so will still be around whenever Griff shows up. And he's easily removed: nobody likes Tyrion, nobody will stand up for him, because he's a dwarf. If only all Varys's enemies were so easily dispatched.

Evidence he lied, and what really happened

Littlefinger's timeline doesn't allow a lot of time for the Tyrells to decide to kill Joffrey and plot with Littlefinger.

Littlefinger went to Bitterbridge before the Battle of the Blackwater. This is, I believe, his first contact with the Tyrells. He's already got Dontos in place, which means his plans regarding Sansa are already taking shape. At Bitterbridge, he praises Joffrey and convinces Mace Tyrell to marry Margaery to him. Simultaneously he has his staff plant rumours of Joffrey's true nature. Mace, who we know is a vain, ambitious fool, evidently doesn't hear these. But supposedly the Lady Olenna does.

Littlefinger also makes sure the Tyrells are aware there's a spot open on the Kingsguard, and has singers perform songs of Kingsguard knights from the Reach. This seed bears fruit, as Loras desires to join the Kingsguard, and Mace agrees. (How much credit Littlefinger can take is debatable, as Loras was already in Renly's Kingsguard, but whatever.)

The marriage thus arranged, they ride for King's Landing, joining the Battle of the Blackwater and lifting the siege of King's Landing. Almost immediately thereafter, Dontos gives Sansa the supposedly-poisoned hairnet. Littlefinger is made Lord Paramount of the Trident.

Plenty of time then passes before he leaves for the Vale, and I suppose it's possible he plotted with the Tyrells in King's Landing at this time. But bear in mind he'd already given Sansa the hairnet. What this suggests is that Littlefinger already had a poison hairnet lying around in case the Tyrells asked him to help murder the king. Or perhaps even that Lady Olenna supplied him the hairnet.

What it also suggests is that between arriving at Bitterbridge and returning to King's Landing, Littlefinger was able to:

• arrange the marriage;
• manipulate Loras into joining the Kingsguard;
• spread disinformation about Joffrey;
• plot his assassination down to the last detail

And it also suggests that the Queen of Thorns spotted the danger of having Loras at King's Landing immediately, and practically her first proposed resolution was to kill Joffrey.

Is that enough time? Sure, it's definitely enough time. But if that's how it happened, then it happened fast.

I think it more possible - or, at least, possible - that all Littlefinger did, as far as killing Joffrey, was plant the seeds, and correctly reason when those seeds would ripen, if at all. That is to say, he must have known that if the Tyrells were to kill Joffrey, they'd do it at the wedding feast. Having gone through with the wedding, few could doubt their commitment to the alliance. They would be very unlikely suspects - the assassination seems to work against them. But crucially, if Joffrey dies at the feast, then Margaery can plausibly claim to be a virgin still, and would be able to remarry without difficulty.

The bulk of the plot was really done by the Tyrells - Lady Olenna, possibly with the assistance or foreknowledge of Garlan or Margaery. Loras wasn't confirmed into the Kingsguard until after the Blackwater (the same day Sansa got her hairnet). After that, the Tyrells got direct experience with Joffrey, and the opportunity to confirm the rumours by talking to Sansa. Assassinating the king is a very extreme step to take, and I think it more likely that they hadn't resolved to do so until they'd confirmed their intelligence and exhausted their other options.

After that, planning his murder would have been relatively easy. Olenna is supposedly familiar with poisons, and at any rate, people as rich as she is have their ways and means. Sneaking poison into the feast wouldn't have been difficult - who, after all, is going to search Olenna's pockets?

(A problem here is what plans, if any, the Tyrells had for Sansa. Did they still hope to marry her to Willas? If so, how would they accomplish that, given her marriage to Tyrion? This is where Littlefinger's theory makes more sense: in his plan, the Tyrells hoped to kill Joffrey and frame Tyrion. We know Littlefinger definitely assisted with the framing, and must've therefore double-crossed the Tyrells by taking Sansa (which, incidentally, means the Tyrells know where Sansa is...). If they weren't in cahoots with Littlefinger, how did they hope to frame Tyrion?)

Littlefinger didn't have Sansa sneak the poison in via a hairnet. All he did was help create a situation where the Tyrells would have a reason to kill Joffrey, and then used his noggin to figure out when they might do it.

Far more important to him was his plans for Sansa. I believe he hoped to use the general commotion of the wedding to spirit her away - perhaps he expected Tyrion to get drunk, perhaps he had Dontos ready to move her and some lads on hand to crack heads if necessary.

But he also planned the dwarf jousting. I think his aim here was to create a scene between Tyrion and Joffrey, hopefully resulting in Tyrion leaving the feast early and taking his wife with him. Thus, with all of King's Landing at the feast, Sansa need only escape a drunk Tyrion, perhaps by going to the godswood, perhaps by some other means. And then Dontos can escort her to the boat, and she's away.

And it's at that point that Littlefinger, having been advised or signalled that his Joffrey/Tyrell gamble paid off, spun Sansa - and us - a web of lies...

[Nerevanin]

Maybe I didn't really get your point but I think that the hairnet and the whole Purple Wedding signal that LF had something to do with the death of Joffrey. It was Dontos, his "employee", who gave the hairnet to Sansa (in order words LF planned or at least knew that it is planned to poison someone). And once again it was Dontos who told Sansa to wear the hairnet on the wedding and that the wedding would be the day when they would escape. And when that all happened, Dontos led Sansa right from the wedding directly to LF. So unless Dontos somehow worked for Olenna as well, I'd say that it is clear that LF had something to do with Purple Wedding even if the only thing he did was that he delivered the hairnet to Sansa and thus provided Olenna with a opportunity to smuggle the poison at the wedding.

[Frey family reunion]

Maybe I didn't really get your point but I think that the hairnet and the whole Purple Wedding signal that LF had something to do with the death of Joffrey. It was Dontos, his "employee", who gave the hairnet to Sansa (in order words LF planned or at least knew that it is planned to poison someone). And once again it was Dontos who told Sansa to wear the hairnet on the wedding and that the wedding would be the day when they would escape. And when that all happened, Dontos led Sansa right from the wedding directly to LF. So unless Dontos somehow worked for Olenna as well, I'd say that it is clear that LF had something to do with Purple Wedding even if the only thing he did was that he delivered the hairnet to Sansa and thus provided Olenna with a opportunity to smuggle the poison at the wedding.

I've often wondered if Dontos explained to Sansa what the hairnet actually was. She certainly plays the part of the innocent after the Purple Wedding, but her eyes go right to the hairnet and the missing amethyst. Why would that have occurred to her if Dontos didn't already tell her what the amethysts actually were? And for that matter why would Dontos have given her the hairnet without an explanation of what it was for?

It would have been a lot easier to have just given one of an amethysts or hairnet to Lady Olenna if the plan the entire way was for Olenna to take the poison from the hairnet and poison Joffrey. Why make Sansa the middleman in this plot? What if she had decided not to wear the hairnet?

Sansa's POV has always been a bit wonky. She tends to misremember things, and get things plain wrong like several characters eye color. I've wondered if deep down she knows she has some sort of responsibility for the poisoning, but her conscious mind as reflected in the POV refuses to accept it. That's the funny thing about these POV chapters, if a character is lying to herself/himself and refusing to acknowledge something isn't this going to be passed on through their POV chapter? Kind of curious as to whether GRRM is playing this up in some of the POV's.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well if LF wasn't working with Olenna, than Olenna is possibly the luckiest person ever for randomly taking a bead out of Sansa's hairnet, giving it to Margery, having Margery slip it into the cup after she took a sip, and having that bead turn out to be the strangler.

[John Suburbs]

You don't need to speculate on why LF would lie to Sansa. It is quite easy to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that he is, in fact, lying.

First, you need to go back to the first Strangler poisoning: Maester Cressen takes a sip, hears one sentence from Mel, and drops to the ground choking.

Joffrey, on the other hand, takes a long drink of supposedly poisoned wine, hears Margaery say something about a toast, then sends a taunt to Tyrion, eats a piece of pie, kofs slightly, sends another taunt, eats a second piece, takes another drink, kofs more violently, speaks more through his kofs ("It's the pie, noth, the pie.."), tries to take another drink but coughs back into the chalice, speaks more ("I can't, I can't"), drops the chalice and then falls to the ground.

So right off the bat, we have two doses of the same poison: one that acted within seconds, and one that took three times, perhaps four, to produce the same affect -- from initial ingestion to inability to speak.

Some people try to explain this away by saying there was more wine in the chalice than in Cressen's cup, but this is irrelevant. Dilution of a topical poison like the Strangler would only lessen its severity, not delay its action.

So unless you want to speculate on all sorts of magical possibilities, the only logical conclusion is that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- elsewise, he never would have finished that first long drink. And indeed, Joffrey's trouble starts immediately after eating the pie, and he himself identifies the pie as the source of his distress.

So when LF says to Sansa that he killed Joffrey to forment chaos, it's clearly a lie because the poison was meant for Tyrion, not Joffrey

[Clegane'sPup]

Why would Littlefinger lie?

Because that is what he does. He used the same tactic with Sansa that he did with Eddard and Cat about the dagger.

[GtrGbln]

Why would Littlefinger lie?

Because that is what he does. He used the same tactic with Sansa that he did with Eddard and Cat about the dagger.

Yeah its always hilarious when people book readers and especially show watchers actually think Littlefinger gives a shit about anyone but himself.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Re: the hairnet - that's a pretty big hole in the theory, I grant you.

What I'm saying is that the hairnet didn't have any poison in it. Therefore Olenna didn't swipe a "jewel" from it. She must've just brought the poison herself. After all, who's going to search the Queen of Thorns's pockets? There's loads of ways to sneak poison in, and there remains the possibility, as someone pointed out upthread, that the poison was in the pie.

(And it's an intriguing possibility that the poison was meant for Tyrion, which, to my mind, raises the possibility that Cersei might've been behind it... maybe she thinks Tyrion knew the pie was poisoned and deliberately provoked Joffrey into eating it... alright, back to a lower level of crazy.)

Re: the hairnet - this is pretty thin, but one possible explanation could be that Littlefinger got Sansa the hairnet on the abovementioned off-chance that Joffrey was poisoned. I suppose he must've had the hairnet made so one of the jewels would fall out...

Or, better, how about this: the hairnet is really just supposed to be a signal to Dontos that Sansa's willing to escape - if she's wearing the hairnet on the night of the feast, that means she's chosen to come with him and he needn't risk exposing himself as an agent. This would make his comments about the hairnet being magic as either (a) bollocks or (b) colourful language.

As for the missing jewel... maybe Littlefinger just noticed there was a jewel missing before he spun his web. We know he's a good improvisor. And perhaps with such a fancy hairnet there's a good chance that someone might have touched it during the night... and whoever she says touched it, that's the one Littlefinger blames for the poisoning.

I'd need to read the chapter again to check the timeline of that conversation.

[ache]

There is also a slight possibility that Dontos was not originally Littlefinger's man and the hairnet was not originally Littlefinger's gift. Being the drunken, non-functioning mess that he was, Dontos may have let something slip, that something got back to Littlefinger who then offered Dontos more money to deliver Sansa to him instead. The whole plan seems pretty reckless, having Dontos carry this knowledge around for months and hoping he doesn't let something slip while deep in his cups. Not to mention giving Sansa the hairnet so damn early when her handmaids are Cersei's spies. It was super lucky that nobody thought to question how friendless, penniless, prisoner Sansa managed to suddenly aquire a fancy jewel- set hairnet.

[Maester Barth]

I think Littlefinger did the purple wedding largely to avenge Catelynn Stark. If he doesn't love Catelynn and Sansa, he at least cares about them more than any of his "investments." I think there was real sincerity in his voice when he said we hurt the people who hurt the people we love.

[ache]

I think Littlefinger did the purple wedding largely to avenge Catelynn Stark. If he doesn't love Catelynn and Sansa, he at least cares about them more than any of his "investments." I think there was real sincerity in his voice when he said we hurt the people who hurt the people we love.

I truly don't believe Littlefinger cares about anyone but himself.Even if he did, how was the Purple Wedding any kind of revenge for the Red Wedding? The Purple Wedding killed Joffrey and by doing so, hurt Cersei. I doubt Littlefinger believed for a second that pair of clowns masterminded the Red Wedding. Not a single member of the group that planned the Red Wedding was hurt by Joffrey's death.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

As to why Littlefinger would do it. A. Chaos, and Petyr thrives on Chaos B. Revenge on Joffrey for what he did to Sansa and revenge on Tyrion for lying to him about his plans C. Makes an ally and gets dirt on the Tyrells D. a diversion to get Sansa out of the city E. Makes Sansa a widow so she can remarry (in theory but Tyrion was supposed to die already) F. Puts a more easily manipulated and less erratic king on the throne G. He's a dick H. Destabilizes Cersei I. Was a condition of Lady Olenna's in return for her support J. Spite

Any that I missed?

[voodooqueen126]

I think Littlefinger did the purple wedding largely to avenge Catelynn Stark. If he doesn't love Catelynn and Sansa, he at least cares about them more than any of his "investments." I think there was real sincerity in his voice when he said we hurt the people who hurt the people we love.

Book not show.

I think Littlefinger thinks he cares for Catelyn Tully, but his whole conspiracy ruined her life.

Sort of those dudes who through acid on the faces of women who reject them.

[Luddagain]

Petyr gave Sansa the hairnet because he PLANNED to kill Tyrion. Petyr cooked the plan up with Joffrey who planned to have Sansa blamed for killing Tyrion. The deal would be that Petyr gets to keep Sansa rather than have her executed. She would make her escape with Dontos as planned and it would be assumed she killed Tyrion. Sansa becomes Petyr's prisoner for life.

Either Tywin gets wind of the scheme and switches the poisons or Sansa, enraged by the swords puts an amethyst in the wine. Joffrey was NEVER the target

[John Suburbs]

Both Littlefinger and Lady O had every reason to kill Tyrion and no reason whatsoever to kill Joffrey.

With Joffrey alive, LF gets all the chaos his heart desires while Lady O and the Tyrells have one of their own as heir to the IT within a year. There is still plenty of time to off Joff if and when he becomes a problem, but only after the Tyrell link to the IT is secure.

Tyrion, on the other hand, is the former Hand and now Master of Coin and is coming dangerously close to unravelling all of LF's shady deals and discovering that perhaps half the crown's debt is sitting in LF's account at the Iron Bank. For Lady O, Tyrion is an immediate danger because he could father a son on Sansa at any moment, who would be the next rightful Lord of Winterfell and would deliver the north to Tywin. With his other recent gains in the Riverlands and the Frey alliance, Casterly Rock would suddenly match Highgarden in military might. The Reach and the Westerlands share an ill-defined border that it some 300 leagues long, and Tywin has already shown no compunction about not only invading rival lands and occupying territory, but burning them to the ground, eliminating rival houses and razing their castles.

So LF and LF alone put the hairnet in Sansa's possession long before he had formulated a plan as to exactly how it was to be used, in keeping with his MO of putting all the pieces in place. Lady O did not join the plot until after the Red Wedding and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, which brought her goals in line with Littlefinger's: Tyrion must die.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

There is also a slight possibility that Dontos was not originally Littlefinger's man and the hairnet was not originally Littlefinger's gift. Being the drunken, non-functioning mess that he was, Dontos may have let something slip, that something got back to Littlefinger who then offered Dontos more money to deliver Sansa to him instead. The whole plan seems pretty reckless, having Dontos carry this knowledge around for months and hoping he doesn't let something slip while deep in his cups. Not to mention giving Sansa the hairnet so damn early when her handmaids are Cersei's spies. It was super lucky that nobody thought to question how friendless, penniless, prisoner Sansa managed to suddenly aquire a fancy jewel- set hairnet.

Dontos wasn't carrying around much more knowledge than "I've seen Sansa Stark in the godswood a few times and I gave her a magic hairnet that will magically transport her home". It's logical that Sansa would go to the godswood and the rest can be easily dismissed as drunken meanderings.

As for it being super lucky about the hairnet, not really. Sansa had been married off to Tyrion Lannister by then, so having a fancy jewel-set hairnet would be standard attire for her. Nobody would have any cause to question it.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The hairnet never left Sansa's possession but was missing a bead, neither Dontos, nor Kettleblack, nor LF himself had access to it while it was on her head/ in her pocket. The bead had to have been removed by Olenna.

Also, why does this have to be some conspiracy? Not everything in the story, and actually I would state most of the story is not overly convoluted as you are painting this situation to be. Cressen was an old man, Joffrey was healthy, the poison taking a little longer to effect Joffrey makes perfect sense.

[Ygrain]

The hairnet never left Sansa's possession but was missing a bead, neither Dontos, nor Kettleblack, nor LF himself had access to it while it was on her head/ in her pocket. The bead had to have been removed by Olenna.

Also, why does this have to be some conspiracy? Not everything in the story, and actually I would state most of the story is not overly convoluted as you are painting this situation to be. Cressen was an old man, Joffrey was healthy, the poison taking a little longer to effect Joffrey makes perfect sense.

Also, Joffrey's chalice contained way more wine, the poison was thus more diluted.

[kimim]

You don't need to speculate on why LF would lie to Sansa. It is quite easy to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that he is, in fact, lying.

First, you need to go back to the first Strangler poisoning: Maester Cressen takes a sip, hears one sentence from Mel, and drops to the ground choking.

Joffrey, on the other hand, takes a long drink of supposedly poisoned wine, hears Margaery say something about a toast, then sends a taunt to Tyrion, eats a piece of pie, kofs slightly, sends another taunt, eats a second piece, takes another drink, kofs more violently, speaks more through his kofs ("It's the pie, noth, the pie.."), tries to take another drink but coughs back into the chalice, speaks more ("I can't, I can't"), drops the chalice and then falls to the ground.

So right off the bat, we have two doses of the same poison: one that acted within seconds, and one that took three times, perhaps four, to produce the same affect -- from initial ingestion to inability to speak.

Some people try to explain this away by saying there was more wine in the chalice than in Cressen's cup, but this is irrelevant. Dilution of a topical poison like the Strangler would only lessen its severity, not delay its action.

So unless you want to speculate on all sorts of magical possibilities, the only logical conclusion is that the poison was not in the wine, but the pie -- elsewise, he never would have finished that first long drink. And indeed, Joffrey's trouble starts immediately after eating the pie, and he himself identifies the pie as the source of his distress.

So when LF says to Sansa that he killed Joffrey to forment chaos, it's clearly a lie because the poison was meant for Tyrion, not Joffrey.

Strangler is a fantasy poison. We don't know if it's topical or not. Cyanide, which is not topical, acts almost immediately after ingestion, but a full stomach can slow it down. The differences between Cressen's ingestion, and Joffrey's are plenty: Cressen drinks the poison on a relatively empty stomach, while Joffrey takes it (if he takes it) after eating something like 55 courses. IF the strangler is not a topical poison, that is enough to account for the difference in timing. If it's topical, not so much, but, in that case, age could be a factor, along with other individual differences. There's not so much of a difference between what happens to Cressen and what happens to Joffrey in terms of timing. In Joffrey's case, it takes seconds longer; we're not talking about a half hour delay.

Tyrion vs Joffrey: I agree that the Tyrells have no reason to get rid of Joff immediately, unless they're genuinely concerned for Margaery and Loras, which is possible. Margaery might marry Tommen, but that marriage will have to wait to be consummated--ie., it can be annulled. Joffrey is a surer path to the throne. otoh, Tywin is still Hand, and the Lannisters still need the Tyrells. Neither Tywin nor Kevan shows the kind of anti-Tyrell paranoia that Cersei does. Tyrells could kill Joff, marry their daughter to the sane kid, and wait a few years, safe in the knowledge that the marriage will be consummated eventually, and safe knowing that they won't need to kill an established king in the future. Eventually, of course, is not as good as immediately.

Tyrells do have reason to get rid of Tyrion as it gets rid of Lannister claims to the North.

LF is trickier: He is the one who got Joffrey to hire the dwarf performers--ie., he wanted public conflict between Joffrey and Tyrion. This makes no sense if he had planned on killing Tyrion all along, as it puts Tyrion in the spotlight, and even LF wouldn't expect anyone to accuse Joffrey of Tyrion's murder. If he had planned on killing Joffrey, and getting Tyrion accused, though, it falls into place.

Tywin, I think, can be involved here as well. Tywin is a sociopath, hyper-conscious of his family's reputation. He's figured out that Joffrey is not going to do wonders for it, and Tyrion has told him that he's not giving up on CR. So Tywin, Olenna, and LF poison Joffrey, accuse Tyrion, and remove Sansa. Tywin gets Tommen on the throne, keeps the Tyrell allies via marriage, and sends Tyrion to the Wall, where he can't claim CR. Meanwhile, his allies marry fArya, which keeps the region out of Tyrell clutches. LF was involved in arranging that marriage, too, which could involve some collusion.