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The great bastards


vyshan

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Hello,



One thing I am wondering about, is why did the great bastards and other bastards of Aegon not take the name of Targaryen following their legitimization by Aegon's deathbed decree? I understand Daemon Blackfyre's reason, he had founded the cadet branch of House Blackfyre. But any reason why the others did not?



~vyshan~


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Well, so far as we know the only one who didn't was Daemon Blackfyre, since his descendants used the Blackfyre name. Bloodraven and Bittersteel have no known offspring so could conceivably have used the Targaryen name, likewise Shiera. But it's a good question, all the same. If I had to guess, it would be some combination of having become known by/got used to their bastard names, and because taking up the Targaryen name would be an implicit challenge to Daeron (in the case of the rebels, before they were ready). Then by the time the rebellion happened the brand recognition of Daemon Blackfyre was sufficient that it wasn't worth changing.



Westeros has an unusually specific system of house names/surnames for a medieval society compared to those IRL, otherwise I'd suggest that they were Targaryens all the same, but of the house of Blackfyre, as for instance the Bourbons were still Capetians IRL. But then you have the Beauforts, who were legitimised descendants of John of Gaunt but are always known as Beaufort rather than Plantagenet. IRL, however, surnames for royals weren't really a thing until very recently, and aren't even now really. In Westeros though they use surnames all the time.



I guess IC it's comparable to the Greystarks or the Karstarks.


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I guess that when the Great Bastards were legitimized, they'd probably could have chosen to use the name Targaryen. ButI think that it's one of those situations where the both the supporters of the Black Dragon and the Red were happy to continue using the name Blackyre. The firsts bacause it made clear that they were no part of the royal house, and the seconds because it reminded that he was the King-Who-Bore-The-Sword.

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Well, so far as we know the only one who didn't was Daemon Blackfyre, since his descendants used the Blackfyre name. Bloodraven and Bittersteel have no known offspring so could conceivably have used the Targaryen name, likewise Shiera. But it's a good question, all the same. If I had to guess, it would be some combination of having become known by/got used to their bastard names, and because taking up the Targaryen name would be an implicit challenge to Daeron (in the case of the rebels, before they were ready). Then by the time the rebellion happened the brand recognition of Daemon Blackfyre was sufficient that it wasn't worth changing.

Westeros has an unusually specific system of house names/surnames for a medieval society compared to those IRL, otherwise I'd suggest that they were Targaryens all the same, but of the house of Blackfyre, as for instance the Bourbons were still Capetians IRL. But then you have the Beauforts, who were legitimised descendants of John of Gaunt but are always known as Beaufort rather than Plantagenet. IRL, however, surnames for royals weren't really a thing until very recently, and aren't even now really. In Westeros though they use surnames all the time.

I guess IC it's comparable to the Greystarks or the Karstarks.

Brynden and Aegor both still had the last name Rivers after they were legitimized.

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Out of the 4 main great bastards, only Daemon is known to have had kids. I guess if Aegor had fathered children of Calla, he probably could have had them claim the name of Blackfyre.



Bloodraven and Shiera did not have children - with each other or other partners (that we know of course). I guess all that remains is Mya and Gwenys Rivers and the children of the Pirate Queen of Braavos. Who they married is unaccounted for - or if they even married to even survived to childhood. I'm going to assume Mya and Gwenys were married to lords of similar rank to the Blackwoods


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Where is this idea that you have to have children to take a non-bastard name coming from? Ramsey went from Snow to Bolton. Stannis asks Jon to swear to him and rise as Jon Stark.


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Brynden and Aegor both still had the last name Rivers after they were legitimized.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that. Lord Rivers, after all. Well, who knows, then. Perhaps in either case it was to avoid the implicit competition with their half-brothers that would come with claiming the Targaryen name: in Bittersteel's case, with Daemon, and in Bloodraven's case, with Daeron.

Where is this idea that you have to have children to take a non-bastard name coming from? Ramsey went from Snow to Bolton. Stannis asks Jon to swear to him and rise as Jon Stark.

It might be my fault for bringing up the children, as since the four main GBs are principally known by nicknames the easiest way to tell what their actual surname was would be to see the name their children used. I had forgotten that Bloodraven was officially titled Lord Rivers, though.

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Aegon the Unworthy legitimized all his bastards in his deathbed. Daeron the Good couldn't undo that without provoking a conflict with the great bastards and their families, but he managed to prevent them from taking the Targaryen surname. I guess many chose for themselves a new, original name but that sounded somewhat Targaryen-ish/Valyrian/"draconic" , like Daemon did.

Also, I think any bastard who dared use the Targaryen name after Daemon's rebellion would have been looked with suspicion as potential threats.

Plus the nobles of Westeros wouldn't like a mere bastard to use the Targaryen name. The Targaryen were superior to all the other nobles, so a bastard who used the name Targaryen was implying that he was better than all trueborn, non-Targaryen nobles, which would be trigger for many prickly nobles.

tecnically speaking they probably did (with the exception of the Blackfyres), it is just that people were used to call them Rivers or whatever as their surname.

Or they just refused to call them Targaryen and kept giving them bastard names. Bittersteel or Bloodraven might be scary enough that they called them Targaryen to their faces, but everybody called them Rivers unless they were in the room. Eventually they would give up and accept that for the Westerosi they were still Rivers.

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Ser Lepus@ That is basically what I said.

Not exactly. You said that they were used to call them Rivers, Waters...etc. I said that they refused to do it because Targaryen are supposed to be above all nobility and the Westerosi nobles refused to acknowledge those bastards as their superiors.

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Not exactly. You said that they were used to call them Rivers, Waters...etc. I said that they refused to do it because Targaryen are supposed to be above all nobility and the Westerosi nobles refused to acknowledge those bastards as their superiors.

That's basically treason, though. They're legitimised children of the king, princes of the blood. They're entitled to the same privileges and respect as Daeron's children. For the king to allow the nobles to disrespect his half-brothers is ultimately damaging to the prestige of the family - admittedly a prestige that's already been damaged by their existence and legitimisation, but once that's happened, Daeron has to deal with that.

It seems though that they were granted their own titles and the like. Bloodraven's official title does appear to have been "Lord Rivers" rather than "Prince Brynden".

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That's basically treason, though. They're legitimised children of the king, princes of the blood. They're entitled to the same privileges and respect as Daeron's children. For the king to allow the nobles to disrespect his half-brothers is ultimately damaging to the prestige of the family - admittedly a prestige that's already been damaged by their existence and legitimisation, but once that's happened, Daeron has to deal with that.

It seems though that they were granted their own titles and the like. Bloodraven's official title does appear to have been "Lord Rivers" rather than "Prince Brynden".

And what is the king going to do if everybody called them Rivers or Waters when they aren't in the room? Was Daeron supposed to sentence the whole kingdom to death?

And anyways, I think that Daeron didn't want them to be called Targaryen. They were threats to his own bloodline, and it was best if people didn't consider them true Targaryen.

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And what is the king going to do if everybody called them Rivers or Waters when they aren't in the room? Was Daeron supposed to sentence the whole kingdom to death?

No, but string up a few as an example and the rest will soon fall into line, or at least that's the theory. We see in D&E that executing people for treasonous and seditious talk against the king and his Hand is fairly commonplace. And it's not a question of what people call them behind their backs; it's a question of which surname they use officially, after all.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Any of the females would take the names of their husbands, and any of their offspring would take the names of their father's houses. The only male bastards of Aegon IV born to noble women were Daemon, Aegor, and Brynden. Daemon took the name Blackfyre and established his own house with the blessing of his half-brother Daeron. As far as we know, Brynden never had children, so the question as to him is moot.

 

The only questions that really matter at this point are whether Aegor ever adopted a knew name? Whether Aegor and Calla Blackfyre had a son or daughter? If so, what name did their son(s) take? And if so, what house(s) did their daughter(s) marry into? And if so, did their offspring have any bastards? Finally does Aegor have descendants? I don't think we can answer any of those questions yet, can we?

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Any of the females would take the names of their husbands, and any of their offspring would take the names of their father's houses. The only male bastards of Aegon VI born to noble women were Daemon, Aegor, and Brynden. Daemon took the name Blackfyre and established his own house with the blessing of his half-brother Daeron. As far as we know, Brynden never had children, so the question as to him is moot.

The only questions that really matter at this point are whether Aegor ever adopted a knew name? Whether Aegor and Calla Blackfyre had a son or daughter? If so, what name did their son(s) take? And if so, what house(s) did their daughter(s) marry into? And if so, did their offspring have any bastards? Finally does Aegor have descendants? I don't think we can answer any of those questions yet, can we?

I doubt it. He was still called Aegor Rivers upon the time of his death, and it's highly unlikely that people would call him that if he had already taken another name for himself, IMO.

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I doubt it. He was still called Aegor Rivers upon the time of his death, and it's highly unlikely that people would call him that if he had already taken another name for himself, IMO.

I agree. Do you think he had any offspring?
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Do you think he had any offspring?

Given the theories that Young Griff/Aegon VI is actually descended from a female Blackfyre, it might be through Aegor and Calla.

Since the male line of the Blackfyres was pretty strong for three-quarters of a century, Aegor's personal life wouldn't have been of much interest beyond that he married one of Daemon's daughters and continued to support his nephews/brothers-in-law as part of the larger Blackfyre effort.

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