Did Rhaenyra's three eldest sons actually look Targaryen?

[cocoalover1956]

I was sort of referring to Corlys being upset about it.

As far as inheritance goes we have to keep in mind that she was in all but name the Queen so it doesn't matter who the father is because it is a Matrineal marriage so it is her line that continues on which is really all that counts.

Alicent had to make her look bad to win supporters and deem her an unworthy ruler.

Rhaenyra's kids being half Strong and Aegon II being half Hightower is the same the ruler is the Targaryen and that is the line that continues on

But Corlys has a line that must continue too. When he was seriously ill, there was a dispute as to whether Driftmark would go to Lucerys or one of Corlys' nephews. Vaemond petitioned to Viserys to have Luke kicked out of the line of succession; Daemon killed him for that, and his brothers, wife, and sons got their tongues cut out. That's one of the reason I listed in the OP for why I believe all Rhaenyra's sons looked Targaryens: if it was obvious that she cheated Laenor out of heirs, Corlys should have been the first person getting angry at her because she would have been screwed up his family's line of succession too.

[BitsOfBrains]

But Corlys has a line that must continue too.

Which is why he adopted the Hull boys and when it came to choosing he chose his blood.

[Bael's Bastard]

So what you're saying is that the boys had brown hair and brown eyes, clearly didn't look like either of their parents, but Corlys couldn't prove that Laenor didn't father them?

About Corlys' bastards, that's a different situation. In the case of Addam and Alyn, they're Corlys' sons. They are half Velaryon. In the case of Rhaernya's three eldest sons, if they weren't Laenor's they don't have Velaryon blood for several generations. It's like saying if Catelyn had a bastard son, she could raise him in Winterfell and he'd be treated the same as Jon Snow; no, he'd be treated worse because he wouldn't even have Stark blood to justify his presence.

Corlys and Rhaenys may have had no desire to prove anything. They agreed to the marriage whether they knew or thought Laenor would father children or not. And the children who were born were legally his whether biologically or not. Their Velaryon grandson was in line to be king, and all kings after descended from him. They had gone from quarelling with the throne to ensuring a Velaryon on the throne. I don't recall any indication of what Corlys or Rhaenys thought of the rumors. But there is zero indication of her three eldest looking Valyrian. That is pure crackpot.

[cocoalover1956]

Corlys and Rhaenys may have had no desire to prove anything. They agreed to the marriage whether they knew or thought Laenor would father children or not. And the children who were born were legally his whether biologically or not. Their Velaryon grandson was in line to be king, and all kings after descended from him. They had gone from quarelling with the throne to ensuring a Velaryon on the throne. I don't recall any indication of what Corlys or Rhaenys thought of the rumors. But there is zero indication of her three eldest looking Valyrian. That is pure crackpot.

Right, because I'm sure Martin wanted up to accept Gyldayn's account at face value and not read between the lines to see that some things don't make sense. Westeros (excluding Dorne) is a place where women are shamed, disowned, ostracized, and (in the worst cases) beaten and killed for having sex outside of marriage, but we should just accept that Rhaenyra was stupid enough to give birth to not one but three kids that clearly weren't her husband's and half the realm still wanted her for queen.

[Bael's Bastard]

Your idea is that they actually looked Valyrian, but propaganda portrays them otherwise. Sorry, this is a stupid idea. It is one thing to spin things few if any were witness to. It is another to claim royal Targaryen heirs looked like brown haired brown eyed pug nosed when they actually had the Targaryen looks. Half the realm wanted her for queen, and wanted her sons as kings, yet they all accept propaganda about them looking like non-Targs? Have fun with that.

[cocoalover1956]

Gyldayn's account was written many years after the fact, and any true witnesses were long dead. He's not a primary source and has a subconscience bias to make Rhaenyra look bad even if the story sounds ridiculous (otherwise why include the bit about her allegedly performing sex acts on Mushroom of all people), making the claims of common features less credible. Also, I never said that everyone accepted the propaganda; the opposite, in fact, in regards to Lord Stark, Lord Manderly, and Lady Arryn, who saw Jace themselves and still found him and his mother worth supporting.

[Alester Florent]

Corlys and Rhaenys Velaryon were Rhaenyra's biggest supporters, which makes no sense if her Velaryon boys were clearly not Laenor's. It's their son she's allegedly cheating on; their house's honor she's tainting; their line of succession she's messing up. Corlys worked well with Jace and considered Luke his heir. Rhaenys died defending Rhaenrya's rights, and by extension the boys'. Laena was Rhaenyra's best friend. No one had issue with the Jace and Luke being betrothed to Rhaena and Baela; while Daemon, as their father, had all the control over their marriages, the Velaryons had could have said something but didn't.

It's certainly an interesting idea and one that I hadn't considered but like the idea of now I hear it. It's pretty crackpot, of course, but some of the best theories are.

On the point above though specifically, I think it's to the advantage of the Velaryons to recognise Rhaenyra's children as Laenor's even if they suspect that they're not really his. Bloodline isn't as important in that context as allegiance: if they're raised believing they're Velaryons then when they come to the throne they'll show the Velaryons the same favour as they otherwise would have anyway. Kicking up a fuss over bastardy doesn't gain them anything except to make Laenor look a fool and a cuckold and potentially get the marriage dissolved. They might even gain a reputation for untrustworthiness and betraying their kin or something. Given that Viserys doesn't like people speaking against his daughter, too, it's worth them keeping their mouths shut and maintaining good relations with her in the expectation that they'll profit later even if they're quietly seething that she's seeing someone else on the side.

On the other hand it would be cause for major political credit with the Greens if they were to side with Aegon and reveal the bastardy after Viserys's death. But probably still not as advantageous as siding with the Blacks: the Blacks seem to have a military advantage at the start of the war (albeit a Velaryon defection could reverse that quite easily) and the all-important prize of a "Velaryon" king is part of the Black manifesto. No matter how many rewards Aegon showers them with there's nothing he can offer them to make up for losing that, save marriage for one of his kids to yet another Velaryon. That's still one in the hand vs two in the bush though.

The rest of it I can't find serious fault with. You make a particularly good point about Daemon's attitude towards his stepchildren and this is something I've always found interesting about his supposedly pretty dark moral character.

Super-crackpot suggestion: Jace isn't Laenor's son, but he's not Harwin's either; he's Daemon's.

[Alester Florent]

Your idea is that they actually looked Valyrian, but propaganda portrays them otherwise. Sorry, this is a stupid idea. It is one thing to spin things few if any were witness to. It is another to claim royal Targaryen heirs looked like brown haired brown eyed pug nosed when they actually had the Targaryen looks. Half the realm wanted her for queen, and wanted her sons as kings, yet they all accept propaganda about them looking like non-Targs? Have fun with that.

The thing about this is that relatively few people who survived the war will have seen the boys with their own eyes. And Jace's and Luke's bodies were lost (Joffrey's may have been, but it's not clear), so unless there were contemporary portraits the truth of their appearance will have died with them. Even in the official account there are no records of any neutrals - even Lord Baratheon - raising the issue of bastardy as regards the Velaryon kids as potential betrothees. By the time someone comes to write the official history all they'll have to go on is contemporary accounts half of which are going to spout the official Green line that they don't even look like Targs.

It does seem a bit of a far-fetched claim for the Greens to make though as it's pretty easy to disprove so long as the princes are alive. But it's the sort of thing that might play well with the smallfolk and minor lords who won't have seen the princes in person and won't have the opportunity to verify.

[cocoalover1956]

It's certainly an interesting idea and one that I hadn't considered but like the idea of now I hear it. It's pretty crackpot, of course, but some of the best theories are.

On the point above though specifically, I think it's to the advantage of the Velaryons to recognise Rhaenyra's children as Laenor's even if they suspect that they're not really his. Bloodline isn't as important in that context as allegiance: if they're raised believing they're Velaryons then when they come to the throne they'll show the Velaryons the same favour as they otherwise would have anyway. Kicking up a fuss over bastardy doesn't gain them anything except to make Laenor look a fool and a cuckold and potentially get the marriage dissolved. They might even gain a reputation for untrustworthiness and betraying their kin or something. Given that Viserys doesn't like people speaking against his daughter, too, it's worth them keeping their mouths shut and maintaining good relations with her in the expectation that they'll profit later even if they're quietly seething that she's seeing someone else on the side.

On the other hand it would be cause for major political credit with the Greens if they were to side with Aegon and reveal the bastardy after Viserys's death. But probably still not as advantageous as siding with the Blacks: the Blacks seem to have a military advantage at the start of the war (albeit a Velaryon defection could reverse that quite easily) and the all-important prize of a "Velaryon" king is part of the Black manifesto. No matter how many rewards Aegon showers them with there's nothing he can offer them to make up for losing that, save marriage for one of his kids to yet another Velaryon. That's still one in the hand vs two in the bush though.

The rest of it I can't find serious fault with. You make a particularly good point about Daemon's attitude towards his stepchildren and this is something I've always found interesting about his supposedly pretty dark moral character.

Super-crackpot suggestion: Jace isn't Laenor's son, but he's not Harwin's either; he's Daemon's.

Those are good points and definitely something I'd like to think about more.

To me, its not ever that big a deal that they're Laenor's. They could be Harwyn's after all, or Daemon's, or Criston's, or whoever's. What really matters is that they have the Valyrian look, so that there's reason for the characters to believe that are legitimate. If Rhaenyra really was having an affair, but all the boys took after their mom, everything makes perfect sense. Viserys has reason to declare them trueborn, the Velaryons have reason to keep quiet, and the Greens have reason to call them bastards. The brown hair, brown eyes, and common features are a falsehood added after they died, when it couldn't be disproved, to slander Rhaenyra further.

[BitsOfBrains]

Those are good points and definitely something I'd like to think about more.

To me, its not ever that big a deal that they're Laenor's. They could be Harwyn's after all, or Daemon's, or Criston's, or whoever's. What really matters is that they have the Valyrian look, so that there's reason for the characters to believe that are legitimate. If Rhaenyra really was having an affair, but all the boys took after their mom, everything makes perfect sense. Viserys has reason to declare them trueborn, the Velaryons have reason to keep quiet, and the Greens have reason to call them bastards. The brown hair, brown eyes, and common features are a falsehood added after they died, when it couldn't be disproved, to slander Rhaenyra further.

In a world where books are extremely valuable there is "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" which is the book Stannis/Jon Arryn/Ned used to suss out the fact that Cerseis children were bastards. It is a massive book that details the pertinents (DOB, appearance, and a few words of description) of every offspring of every major house in Westeros.

Is your argument that they (whoever the conspirators were to change the description of these boys) altered or destroyed and replaced EVERY copy of "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" in the whole world?

[cocoalover1956]

In a world where books are extremely valuable there is "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" which is the book Stannis/Jon Arryn/Ned used to suss out the fact that Cerseis children were bastards. It is a massive book that details the pertinents (DOB, appearance, and a few words of description) of every offspring of every major house in Westeros.

Is your argument that they (whoever the conspirators were to change the description of these boys) altered or destroyed and replaced EVERY copy of "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" in the whole world?

And how many copies are there? A hundred? Only one? We don't know. We don't even know when it was written (expect a vague reference that it was a long time ago) or if Gyldayn could have had access to it. Also, where is the writer, Grand Maester Malleon, getting his information?

[SeanF]

Not all Targaryens have classical Valyrian features.

[Magnolia]

I don't think the claim is far fetched, that the description of the appearance of the "Strong"s is influenced by the misgivings of the greens and that the boys did in fact look more Valyrian (despite being bastards). But even if they looked all Valyrian, I think Rhaenys and Corlys would have suspected something.

On the point above though specifically, I think it's to the advantage of the Velaryons to recognise Rhaenyra's children as Laenor's even if they suspect that they're not really his. Bloodline isn't as important in that context as allegiance: if they're raised believing they're Velaryons then when they come to the throne they'll show the Velaryons the same favour as they otherwise would have anyway. Kicking up a fuss over bastardy doesn't gain them anything except to make Laenor look a fool and a cuckold and potentially get the marriage dissolved. They might even gain a reputation for untrustworthiness and betraying their kin or something. Given that Viserys doesn't like people speaking against his daughter, too, it's worth them keeping their mouths shut and maintaining good relations with her in the expectation that they'll profit later even if they're quietly seething that she's seeing someone else on the side.

In addition to that they made sure, that future heirs would be of velaryon-bloodline by marrying the two oldest boys to the daughters of Laena. To me, that looks like the best possible arrangement giving the situation (Laenor, the only son being gay): The great-grandchildren would be raised as Velaryons, with Velaryon-descendents on their mothers-side and close relations to the Iron Throne and thus the dragon-riding Targaryens.
It wouldn't be an honorable thing but quite pragmatic: one granddaughter would be the new queen, the other ensured in her inheritance by marrying her to the "official" heir, that as it happens owns a dragon and is thus able to defend their rights.

[Hajk]

I know this topic has been off the radar for a while but I think it is worth discussing a bit more.

I think the truth has to lie somewhere in between when it comes to the appearances of the boys. On the one hand, it is unlikely that they had all the classic Valyrian features like purple eyes, extremely fair hair etc. There must have been something atypical in their appearance in terms of being a deviation from the classic Valyrian norm to make the Green propaganda make any sense. Even the most blatant propaganda is often based on a germ of truth. However, after that it can expand via the most absurd distortions of that truth. Their hair may not have been completely brown, nor their features as plain as the maester makes them out to be, but it seems doubtful that they would meet the classic Valyrian exemplar either.

On the other hand, both the families (Velaryon and Targaryen) were more familiar than anyone else as to how much deviation from that norm was possible. It seems doubtful that the deviation was so great and anomalous that would mark the children as clear bastards. It was to the advantage of the Green's to exaggerate any anomaly beyond their actual worth and perhaps even pepper it with some salacious tidbits of their own. But it seems unlikely that their features were so radically anomalous as to render their being Velaaryons impossible (or extremely unlikely). Had this been the case then it seems highly unlikely that Corlys Velaryon would have supported Rhaenyra like they did. Corlys and Rhaenys were very proud people. Given how Catelyn has acted towards Jon Snow, it seems highly unlikely to me that Rhaenys would be so determined to fight to the death (literally) to secure the future of boys who she not only did not consider her grandchildren but considered bastards (or who were obviously bastards). Ditto for Corlys.

Seriously, all that Corlys really needed to do here was to bend the knee to Aegon II at the start of the Dance era and Rhaenyra's entire cause would have been defeated before it even got off the ground. Aegon II would have been happy to even legitimize Adam and his brother in response. Corlys would have continued to be the richest lord in the realm. He would never have had to make any accusations of bastardy against Rhaenyra's children. Driftmark would have passed to his legitimized heirs. The way Corlys and Rhaenys went to bat for Rhaenyra's rights at a time when everything seemed to be against her would be much easier to explain if they also felt that they were fighting for the rights of their grandchildren as well.

Now I do not find the maester's writings to be impartial here. The notion that Laenor was gay is pushed very strongly by him (and this is quite fundamental to the 'strong' claim). It is hard to know if this is true. He may have been bisexual mostly tending towards men, for example. This is a possibility as well; one that is still sufficient to allow Rhaenyra's children to be legitimate.

The maester does not come out and open accuse the children of being bastards, but tries to drop lots of subtle hints that would push the reader in this direction. Their appearance is brought up repeatedly, and the Green description is presented as fact. throwaway sentences like saying that Laenor was "said to visit her often", are written in a way so as to reduce the credibility of reports that say that he did visit his wife at Dragonstone. The difference between how much the author of "The Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and the Queen" dwells on the question of their legitimacy is obvious (even though TPatQ also seems biased towards the Greens); as if this was the most important thing going on in the realm (in a book that is ostensibly about Daemon Targaryen).

GRRM's genius is that he manages to write these texts that seem to have the characteristics of actual historical texts. hence I feel like analyzing them the same way as I would the writings of Tacitus or Suetonius (who seems quite close to Mushroom sometimes!). That means that claims to historical objectivity and an apparently detached voice cannot be taken at face value. Finally, it is useful to invoke the words of the great historian of science Otto Neugebauer:

"The common belief that we gain "historical perspective" with increasing distance seems to me utterly to misrepresent the actual situation. What we gain is merely confidence in generalizations which we would never dare to make if we had access to the real wealth of contemporary evidence."

[Lord Varys]

There is no need for a synthesis or a middle ground here.

We have description of the boys, and they do not look Valyrian. That's it, really. If Gyldayn were citing conflicting descriptions there may be reason for doubt, but that is not the case.

Nothing suggests that their description in itself was 'Green propaganda' - Green propaganda was the claim that they weren't Laenor's seed which, in turn, was justified by their non-Valyrian features.

Corlys and Rhaenys' motivations are by far not clear. If Harwin Strong fathered Laenor's sons then one reason why he did that may have been that Laenor Velaryon was completely unwilling to ever share the bed with Rhaenyra Targaryen (or any woman whatsoever). He seems to have been proud and willful man who did and took what he wanted, especially where handsome youths were concerned. Gaining access to the Iron Throne as Rhaenyra's consort - on which his parents wanted to seat him back in 101 AC - is one thing, actually mating or spending much time with Rhaenyra is quite another - especially if these two didn't have anything in common. I mean, it is quite clear that Rhaenyra had a thing for strong and manly men - Criston Cole, Daemon Targaryen, Harwin Strong - not effeminate homosexuals. Thus they really were an ill-made couple, and the whole wedding tourney would have made matters much worse since the jealousy of Rhaenyra's (would-be) lover, Criston Cole, cost Laenor's lover Joffrey Lonmouth his life. I imagine that Laenor would have (partially) blamed Rhaenyra for that outcome.

To get back to the point: If Rhaenys and Corlys were aware of the fact that their son would not father a child on Rhaenyra - if he had openly spoken with them about that fact - then it could make sense for them to accept Laenor's official sons as their grandsons, simply because this is all they would get from him. It would have been a similar situation if Laenor had been sterile. The fact that Rhaenys and Corlys did support Rhaenyra in the Dance strongly suggests to me that they accepted things as they were, one way or the other, which means that they did not believe that Rhaenyra allowed Harwin to father children on her simply because she wanted to humiliate Laenor. That wouldn't have been the point of that. It would also be quite likely that they did also not believe that Daemon was the one behind Laenor's murder - or else their actions during the Dance makes even less sense.

Rhaenyra made moves to appease any misgivings Corlys and Rhaenys may have had by arranging betrothals between Laena's daughters by Daemon and her own sons, thus ensuring that Jace and Luke's children would be great-grandchildren of Corlys and Rhaenys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Come on. We know how genetics work in the worldsteros.

Two Valyrian parents don't produce THREE "common" looking sons.

Also Aemond said they were "strong".

The narrator specifically uses synonyms for the word "strong" to describe them. Words like "lusty, muscular, likely, daring, etc." yet I believe he specifically refrains from using the word "strong" to describe them and I think that says a lot.

If you chose to believe that Rhaenyras sons weren't bastards thats fine, its fiction and you are the reader. Just realize you are doing so despite the author basically telling you (or at least expecting you to realize) they are in fact bastards.

Even in Westeros, a child doesn't always have to look like one of the two parents.. Where does Tyrion's black hair come from? Not from his father, not from his mother. So an ancestor, most likely.

The same can be argued for Rhaenyra's children, until we get a description of Ser Harwin. Rhaenyra had Arryn blood, Laenor had Baratheon blood. And Arryns and Baratheon generally don't look Valyrian.

Yeah maybe. I am just going by the text. It specifically says Aegon was like, "no I don't want to be king" but finally accepted once they told him they would kill his siblings.

I guess you would have to believe the narrator is a liar in which case the whole story means nothing and nothing from it can be taken at its word.

When only the princess and the queen was available, a case could have been made for this. Yet, with the rogue prince that falls away completely, imo.

The sins of the fathers are oft visited on the sons, wise men have said; and so it is for the sins of mothers as well. The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons, and the queen’s three boys, the Princes Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron, grew to be bitter rivals of their Velaryon nephews, resentful of them for having stolen what they regarded as their birthright: the Iron Throne itself.

In addition, we learn that Alicent had aspired to marry Aegon to Rhaenyra from early on, to get her own son on the throne, as well as have Viserys name Aegon heir over Rhaenyra. Ever since the boy was young, his mother tried to get him on the throne. According to Gyldayn, he saw it as his birthright himself as well. So no, I'm not convinced by Gyldayn's line on "what kind of brother steals his sister's birthright?", when during the previous twenty years, plenty of attempts were made.

I do find, however, it slightly sad, that for the rogue prince we are mostly told which sources tells us what, while that appears to have been cut, mostly, for the princess and the queen. I'd be very interested to know who the source was for Aegon's line.. Gyldayn won't have had any side, he lived 100 years after the war itself.

[Hajk]

There is no need for a synthesis or a middle ground here.

We have description of the boys, and they do not look Valyrian. That's it, really. If Gyldayn were citing conflicting descriptions there may be reason for doubt, but that is not the case.

Nothing suggests that their description in itself was 'Green propaganda' - Green propaganda was the claim that they weren't Laenor's seed which, in turn, was justified by their non-Valyrian features.

What I'm suggesting is that by the time Gyldayn writes, (he doesn't have any photographs), and given the bias he himself exhibits, it is not unlikely if he had chosen to give credence to certain reports that are more supportive of (or influenced by)Green propaganda. The way he reports it as fact is itself suspicious. It is doubtful that no one would have claimed that their appearance was more Valyrian, even if only to flatter Rhaenyra, Viserys and Daemon etc. for example. Where did these reports go? Furthermore, as I argued, the simplest explanation of Corlys and Rhaenys' actions is that their appearance did not fall so outside the Valyrian norm as to guarantee their bastardy. Gyldayn structures his narrative in a way that, if taken to be true, would make anyone denying their being bastards an absolute idiot (without actually calling them bastards). The pillars of this narrative are:

1) Laenor was absolutely 100% gay and would never sleep with Rhaenyra

2) Rhaenyra was a total promiscuous ho who would have no problem sleeping around

3) Rhaenyras sons didn't look like Laenor's by a mile

Put these together and you get this conclusion. I find each pillar of this neat argument suspicious. The first point in unknowable, and the second is quite suspicious anyhow. The third doesn't have to be taken as gospel either.

The Green propaganda was that they were bastards. But the way these things work, it is not necessary for the propaganda to be based on objective fact either. In popular polemics and propaganda etc., the interpretation of the underlying evidence itself is often colored by the conclusion desired (confirmation bias creeps in).

Corlys and Rhaenys' motivations are by far not clear. If Harwin Strong fathered Laenor's sons then one reason why he did that may have been that Laenor Velaryon was completely unwilling to ever share the bed with Rhaenyra Targaryen (or any woman whatsoever). He seems to have been proud and willful man who did and took what he wanted, especially where handsome youths were concerned. Gaining access to the Iron Throne as Rhaenyra's consort - on which his parents wanted to seat him back in 101 AC - is one thing, actually mating or spending much time with Rhaenyra is quite another - especially if these two didn't have anything in common. I mean, it is quite clear that Rhaenyra had a thing for strong and manly men - Criston Cole, Daemon Targaryen, Harwin Strong - not effeminate homosexuals. Thus they really were an ill-made couple, and the whole wedding tourney would have made matters much worse since the jealousy of Rhaenyra's (would-be) lover, Criston Cole, cost Laenor's lover Joffrey Lonmouth his life. I imagine that Laenor would have (partially) blamed Rhaenyra for that outcome.

To get back to the point: If Rhaenys and Corlys were aware of the fact that their son would not father a child on Rhaenyra - if he had openly spoken with them about that fact - then it could make sense for them to accept Laenor's official sons as their grandsons, simply because this is all they would get from him. It would have been a similar situation if Laenor had been sterile. The fact that Rhaenys and Corlys did support Rhaenyra in the Dance strongly suggests to me that they accepted things as they were, one way or the other, which means that they did not believe that Rhaenyra allowed Harwin to father children on her simply because she wanted to humiliate Laenor. That wouldn't have been the point of that. It would also be quite likely that they did also not believe that Daemon was the one behind Laenor's murder - or else their actions during the Dance makes even less sense.

Rhaenyra made moves to appease any misgivings Corlys and Rhaenys may have had by arranging betrothals between Laena's daughters by Daemon and her own sons, thus ensuring that Jace and Luke's children would be great-grandchildren of Corlys and Rhaenys.

See, I find the reasoning required to explain their behavior too convoluted and unconvincing. Given the extreme distaste for bastards and desire to see your own property to pass on to your own blood their actions don't make much sense. As I argued before if Corlys and Rhaenys believed the children to be bastards, all Corlys needed to do was to declare for Aegon II. The whole Black cause would have collapsed from the get go. He could have asked Aegon to legitimize Adam and Alyn and that would have at least ensured that his own blood inherited Driftmark. Arranging excellent betrothals for Laena's daughters would not have been a problem either. Corlys was the richest and one of the most powerful men in the realm. Furthermore he was no dupe but a man of immense experience of the world. If he was so certain that Laenor would not do the job, he could have tried other avenues that wouldn't leave him with egg on his face (e.g. get another Valeryon to do the honors...hell do them himself even). In fact with the precedents in front of him he could even have said that he was changing the succession for Driftmark to Laena given that Laenor was to be the King consort of Rhaenyra anyhow. If the children were indeed clearly bastards it is unlikely that Rhaenyra would have protested such a move much. On the other hand he seems quite comfortable with other Velaryons being killed and having their tongues ripped out for suggesting that the children were bastards.

Corlys treated the children exactly as one would expect him to treat his own grandchildren. He and Rhaenys put all their weight behind Rhaenyra's cause, even was there was no one else. Even after Rhaenyra had turned on him at the end, and had been killed, and he had been pardoned by Aegon II, he never seems to have given any confirmation of credibility to these rumors (I doubt that Gyldayn would not have mentioned that), when he could certainly have gained more acceptance by suddenly having the epiphany that yes they must have been bastards.

[Lord Varys]

Hajk,

but there are no accounts describing Rhaenyra's sons as prototypical Valyrians. If there were such sources then I'd agree with you that we have reason to doubt. But this is not the case. And Gyldayn isn't biased to one side or the other - his sources may be, to a certain extent, but he is an impartial historian living in during the reign of Aegon V.

On whoever's account the descriptions of Rhaenyra's are based that Yandel and Gyldayn give us in TRP and TWoIaF it is most likely not Green propaganda - simply because if Gyldayn used contemporary sources - which he does, like the Grand Maester accounts or other official documents of the time - they should not give us false descriptions of the young princes.

Later the Greens concluded from the looks of Rhaenyra's sons that they were Harwin's seed - that is the propaganda (which may have been true), not their looks itself.

There are no rumors/propaganda claiming that Aegon the Younger and Viserys aren't Daemon's sons or that they did not look Valyrian (which they did). Surely the Greens would have included them in their propaganda, too, if they had more or less made up the stories about the non-Valyrian features of the elder sons. If Jace, Luke, and Joff were bastards, the throne would still go to Aegon the Younger after Rhaenyra, would it not?

The fact that there were no reports about people flattering the Valyrian looks of the boys may be due to the fact that they obviously did not look Valyrian - and thus did not entice such flattering (after all, drawing attention to this whole thing may not have been taken kindly by Rhaenyra, Viserys, or Laenor).

It is not Gyldayn who tells us stories about Laenor's sexual preferences, it is his sources - Eustace and Mushroom agree on that one. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have had sex, but it may be why they did not.

You should generally keep in mind that it is quite likely that Westeros had actually a few bastard kings. I buy the rumors that Aenys I wasn't Aegon's son but the seed of a mummer, and the conception of Maegor smells even fishier if you consult 'The Sons of the Dragon'. Bottom line is that the Conqueror may have been sterile, and Rhaenys got herself pregnant with the help of some fair-haired mummer, while Visenya used sorcery to conceive Maegor (either by making Aegon's seed viable - then he would have been no bastard - or by creating a male clone of herself). The major reasoning for this whole thing is that Aegon and his sisters were married for a long time (the wedding was at an unknown date prior to the Conquest) but Aenys and Maegor were only born in 7 and 12 AC, respectively. And there are no reports whatsoever about miscarriages, stillbirths, children that died in the cradle, and such. Just two pregnancies, and two sons.

If you have the power, you decide who your son is.

Your assessment of the Velaryon motivation is flawed. Rhaenys is described as a hot-headed person, and Corlys never dared to bring his bastards to High Time while she was still alive, and he would most certainly never have legitimized them. The fact that the Velaryons stuck with Rhaenyra and Daemon is itself a sign - that they were on her side. Which is actually quite odd if you read TRP since this edited version of events gives Corlys and Rhaenys quite a lot of reasons to be not exactly in team Black:

1. The animosity between Viserys I and Corlys/Rhaenys going back to 92 AC and the Great Council. Rhaenys or Laenor should sit the Iron Throne, not Viserys or Rhaenyra. That is only deepened when Viserys spurns Laena, but they sort of reconcile when Laenor and Rhaenyra marry.

2. The parentage of Rhaenyra's sons - Laenor effectively looks like a cuckold, even if he is the father. And Rhaenyra hanging out with Harwin Strong does nothing to dissuade the implications.

3. The mysterious death Laenor. The main suspect for that cited in TRP is Prince Daemon. The death of Laena in childbirth could also be laid at Daemon's feet - he impregnated her, after all.

4. The death of Corlys' cousin, Ser Vaemond Velaryon, in the wake of Corlys' illness shortly before the Dance, and the subsequent maiming of his wife and sons by order of the king.

In light of all that it is very strange that Rhaenyra and the Velaryons are fast friends at the beginning of the Dance - suggesting that they may have been other people (i.e. Alicent/Otto) behind the murder of Laenor (and they knew it - if you are interested in this, I started a rather good thread on the murder mysteries in TRP shortly after the publication of TRP where this whole thing is discussed in detail). After all, Corlys and Daemon were old war buddies from the campaigns on the Stepstones. Sure, it may be that they had proof/knew that Laenor's sons were actually fathered by him - all I'm saying is that I could understand them backing Rhaenyra even if they knew that Laenor was not the biological father of their grandsons. Whether they were particularly eager to hand Driftmark to Luke is another matter, though. Note that Jace arranges with Corlys to legitimize Addam and Alyn of Hull as Laenor's sons, and Rhaenyra is at first reluctant to go through with this. It seems as if Jace effectively tricks his younger brother Joffrey out of the Driftmark inheritance (or puts him behind Addam and Alyn) to allow Corlys to make his own sons his legitimate grandsons. Both sides benefit from this - if Laenor had fathered bastards on Marilda, it is more likely that he could also be the biological father of Rhaenyra's sons. Corlys, in turn, may be able to hand Driftmark to his own son rather than some Strong bastard.

Supporting the Greens wouldn't have made much sense, anyway. Rhaenyra betrothed Jace and Luke to Laena's daughters - which means Baela would have been queen after Jacaerys Velaryon had become king. Backing Aegon II would not have gotten Corlys' blood closer to the Iron Throne - especially in light of the fact that Viserys I/Otto had given the office of Master of Ships to Tyland Lannister rather than back to Corlys (who most likely held that office until Jaehaerys I decided to pass over Rhaenys in the succession).

Finally, I'd like to point out an interesting feature in TWoIaF:

Doesn't Viserys I have darkish/blackish hair and beard on his picture in the book? Perhaps Rhaenyra's sons come after their grandfather in that regard (although I don't know where Viserys should have gotten that color). But I've said it earlier - it may very well be that the boys are Laenor's, and the brown hair and eyes come from Rhaenyra's Arryn ancestors or Rhaenys Baratheon/Durrandon forebears. Not to mention that we have no clue what blood the Velaryons have besides Targaryen blood.

[LordQorgyle]

Viserys is blond in both pictures in the book

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Arryns are sandy blonde with pale blue eyes (which makes sense since they claim to be the purest line of Andals)

So, Rhaenyra's sons were Strongs. And it was pretty clear imo

I don't think it was a proaganda. You don't take people's tongues for lies. GRRM specifially does that to show stupidity of medieval thoughts. If you remove someone's tongue = he was telling the truth.

Torture will make them tell the truth = torture will make them say anything you want.