[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

[Barristan Whitebeard]

^https://twitter.com/MigSapochnik/status/606566838328123392

That's great news! Sapochnik totally deserved it. Thank you, mate.

[Dragon in the North]

That's great news! Sapochnik totally deserved it. Thank you, mate.

You're welcome.

[roxWolfox]

^https://twitter.com/MigSapochnik/status/606566838328123392

Fantastic news!

Thank you for sharing. :cheers:

[jacksonbrowne]

Fantastic news!

Thank you for sharing. :cheers:

A little reminder. Alex Graves directed And Now His Watch Is Ended back in Season 3 and was hailed as the best thing since sliced bread. Then he directed what'sit-dead-joffrey-in-the-crypt thingy (can't for the life of mine remember the title) and was apparently practically ruining the whole franchise :)

[Mladen]

Yes, you great thinker, you. :rolleyes:

Don't confuse 'coming at the show from a position of hatred and finding arguments to validate your feelings' with 'thinking'. What you should apologise for is for insinuating that others don't think. You're no special snowflake... other people simply think and like what they see. That makes you - or them - no better.

Seriously, stop with the straw. It's not even cute.

I didn't say that I am better and that people who watch the show, and enjoy, are unable to think. Those are your words, not mine. Thing is that whenever someone dare to criticize the show for whatever reason they may have, the obvious argument is "Why do you watch if you hate it?" The strawman argument here is created by other side who believes that the only way to watch GoT is to think of it as above any sort of criticism. I am sorry, but GoT is not above any criticism. ASOIAF is not above any sort of criticism. So, basically, some people need to accept that some of us are capable of both watching the show and you know, having a few objections.

[jacksonbrowne]

I didn't say that I am better and that people who watch the show, and enjoy, are unable to think. Those are your words, not mine. Thing is that whenever someone dare to criticize the show for whatever reason they may have, the obvious argument is "Why do you watch if you hate it?" The strawman argument here is created by other side who believes that the only way to watch GoT is to think of it as above any sort of criticism. I am sorry, but GoT is not above any criticism. ASOIAF is not above any sort of criticism. So, basically, some people need to accept that some of us are capable of both watching the show and you know, having a few objections.

Having a few objections is absolutely fine. Having continous massive circle-jerk threads that are bigger than ANYTHING else in the forums where people come to simply insult and applaud to said insults is NOT critique.

[Mladen]

Having a few objections is absolutely fine. Having continous massive circle-jerk threads that are bigger than ANYTHING else in the forums where people come to simply insult and applaud to said insults is NOT critique.

Well, don't generalize then... Deal with people's opinions individually. Don't make wide, broad and often incorrect statements about what is happening around here.

And I agree that some things are not critique, but some things are. And perhaps in those 1500+ post-long threads, 90% are just illegitimate whining, the 10% is very serious criticism that should not be ignored.

[jacksonbrowne]

Well, don't generalize then... Deal with people's opinions individually. Don't make wide, broad and often incorrect statements about what is happening around here.

And I agree that some things are not critique, but some things are. And perhaps in those 1500+ post-long threads, 90% are just illegitimate whining, the 10% is very serious criticism that should not be ignored.

The problem with that is that the whining drags the general level of conversation down to the degree that wading through 90% of pure garbage to get to the one point that is worth discussing about is making the conversation regarding the topics worth discussing about impossible.

And this is not all. The massice circle jerk, me-toos and high-fives makes the whiners and insulters imagine that their views are somewhat more valid than others and they then bleed them to every topic everywhere withhordes of lemmings behind to agree with them on principle making discussion of any theme worthy of a conversation impossible on THOSE topics.

Edited June 5, 2015 by jacksonbrowne

[ShadowKitteh]

Best ep of the season. Best 17min of television action I've ever seen. Blackwater was awesome. This was better. And I hate zombies. Silly monsters. Loved this.

Alfie Allen needs an Emmy and an ACTOR.

Ramsay needs to DIE, after he betrays his father. (However, it would leave a weird hole to not have a total sociopath in the story - yet.... the entire ARMY OF THE DEAD might make all that look silly now. Timing.)

Lena needs an Emmy and an ACTOR, too.

Septa has the creepiest, velvety, creepy, smooth, creepy, musical, creepy, low, creepiest voice ever. "Confess."

The Dany and Tyrion road show is going to have the most comedy yet. I can't wait for the spin off!

I laughed more in this episode, to all the awesome one-liners, than any ep before. "Fuck 'em. They're dead."

That is a record for me for falling in love with a character on the show, them seeming like a new main character, then in the space of 15 min they turn into a red shirt. DAMMIT! WE LOVE NotVal!

FUCK YES JON AND LONGCLAW!!! I SCREAMED AT MY TV!!!! So. Awesomely. Perfect.

Edd lives!

Night's King recognizes Jon. Holy fuck.

Yeah - even after all this time, Ser Aliser is somewhat of a mystery to me. After he finally admitted during the battle on the wall that Jon was right and they should have frozen the tunnel, after Jon has acknowledged that he's a great swordsman, after Jon gave him second in command . . . he still hates Jon. I think he'll obviously be the one to deliver the first thrust.

I don't know...... I'm so confused by the repercussions in the last few eps that I'm not sure what's going to happen.

No, I'm neither drunk, nor high. No, I don't have a head injury. But it won't surprise me if there is NO STABBY.

Oh sure, Olly might think about picking up a knife off of a table, but then doesn't because Ghost growls at him, or Mel stops him, which is why she goes back to Castle Black - to save Jon before anyone gets stabby - because she saw that in the fire, along with Hardhome.

I'm starting to feel like they've over-foreshardowed Olly to the point they might just be trolling book readers.

In the books we never see what happened in Hardhome. We never really get much detail either.

I think D&D(&B, let's face it), have already *broken the internet* and we just don't know it yet.

1. Olly, Olly, Olly. Keeping bookreaders calm that the plot is still relatively heading in the right direction, with all the main stops along the way. But Olly/Brutus seems to almost have a learning disability concering what Jon's doing. Obvious is beyond obvious now. I'm thinking this is a troll.

2. Hardhome.

3. Hardhome.

4. Hardhome.

5. Everything has changed because of show Hardhome. Everything. (To me, anyway.)

6. In the books.... Jon never went to Hardhome. Jon sent people. Everything in the show changed when Jon went to Hardhome.

7. Show Hardhome. Jon's plan. Jon's mission (against the objections of his 2nd in command.) Jon's victory. Jon's proof at leadership. Jon killed an Other. He saved hundreds? thousands? (how many ships?) of people. The Wildlings owe him their lives. It's too BIG of a win at this point for any REAL BROTHER to even think about FTW. Unsullied would be too confused. There's an ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD. Endless renwable energy. Riders need to be sent out to the corners of the entire known world ASAP to find those DRAGONS (ravens dying in snow would be bad.)

Sure, Alliser is scowling down at him...... and it wouldn't surprise me if he actually breaks into a SMILE in the next frame or two, but we know they let them through, we see Jon inside CB in some preview photos.

Think about it - Mance is DEAD. Tormund beat Rattleshirt DEAD. Tormund also beat dead the whole glamour Jon/Mance theory that still might play out in the books.

This might be a great way to allow the show NOT to spoil something pretty damn huge in the books: How Jon lives.

If Jon doesn't get stabbed in the show, there's no mystery in the show, and no book spoilage of Jon's awakening if we don't get TWoW before season 6.

Sam's, "He always comes back." is a bone to the readers, that Jon does just that, which we all mostly knew already, but this confirms it, and we know it. (yes, you do.)

Hardhome has even changed the Pink Letter. Either there won't be a Pink Letter, or Sansa will write it, not Ramsay. Jon's "challenge" will be how to get Sansa out of Winterfell without seeming to care about taking sides, and worrying AT ALL about anything other than that HOLYFUCKINGSHITARMYOFTHEDEAD.....

Seriously. He didn't leave and join Robb. He's older and a metric shit-tonne wiser now. After being AT Hardhome, how can Jon even think about leaving the Wall for any reason, unless it's leading everyone "As far south as south goes"?

How do we even get a Pink Letter after Hardhome and the ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD?

"Dear Jon,

Please help me! They made me marry Ramsay - Imma Flay You Baby - Bolton née Snow, and he's very rapey and scary.

And they broke Theon.

Love, your half sister,

Sansa

P.S. Getting me the fuck outta here sooner would be good. hugz

Oh and, Bran and Rickon are alive."

I'M SORRY - I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THIS ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD AND THE FATE OF ALL MANKIND!

He'll have to send someone. Or we deal with all of that next season. Seems a lot of business to put in with the other stuff we're getting in only two episodes.

Or perhaps, Jon's "challenge" is, since Maester Aemon is dead, to part with Sam, and send him (and Gilly) to Old Town, and then, "HOLY FUCK WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

How do we get stabby stabby after ARMY OF THE DEAD? Hhmmm.... stabby-stabby or ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD AND THE FATE OF ALL MANKIND?

I think Drogon will be this next episode, and no-stabby + LS will be the end of ep 10, and break the internet.

We could then get stabby-stabby at the beginning of next season....(a year to soften following Hardhome), which NOT having it now, would still break the internet.

Or...... They burn Shireen. That will break the internet. I'd rather see Selyse try, and Mel and/or Stannis insist it be Selyse instead. It's still a female, and it will break the internet.

Or...... I've got an over-active imagination, and everything happens more or less like it did in the books. And I still have hope for LS. At this point, everyone's head would explode, especially book readers because most have given up. 2nd best troll ever for D&D&B. (1st is Rick Astley rickrolling the world at the Macy's parade.)

:D

Edited June 5, 2015 by ShadowKitteh

[roxWolfox]

A little reminder. Alex Graves directed And Now His Watch Is Ended back in Season 3 and was hailed as the best thing since sliced bread. Then he directed what'sit-dead-joffrey-in-the-crypt thingy (can't for the life of mine remember the title) and was apparently practically ruining the whole franchise :)

Aye...too true! Thanks for the reminder. :eek:

Best ep of the season. Best 17min of television action I've ever seen. Blackwater was awesome. This was better. And I hate zombies. Silly monsters. Loved this.

Alfie Allen needs an Emmy and an ACTOR.

Ramsay needs to DIE, after he betrays his father. (However, it would leave a weird hole to not have a total sociopath in the story - yet.... the entire ARMY OF THE DEAD might make all that look silly now. Timing.)

Lena needs an Emmy and an ACTOR, too.

Septa has the creepiest, velvety, creepy, smooth, creepy, musical, creepy, low, creepiest voice ever. "Confess."

The Dany and Tyrion road show is going to have the most comedy yet. I can't wait for the spin off!

I laughed more in this episode, to all the awesome one-liners, than any ep before. "Fuck 'em. They're dead."

That is a record for me for falling in love with a character on the show, them seeming like a new main character, then in the space of 15 min they turn into a red shirt. DAMMIT! WE LOVE NotVal!

FUCK YES JON AND LONGCLAW!!! I SCREAMED AT MY TV!!!! So. Awesomely. Perfect.

Edd lives!

Night's King recognizes Jon. Holy fuck.

I don't know...... I'm so confused by the repercussions in the last few eps that I'm not sure what's going to happen.

No, I'm neither drunk, nor high. No, I don't have a head injury. But it won't surprise me if there is NO STABBY.

Oh sure, Olly might think about picking up a knife off of a table, but then doesn't because Ghost growls at him, or Mel stops him, which is why she goes back to Castle Black - to save Jon before anyone gets stabby - because she saw that in the fire, along with Hardhome.

I'm starting to feel like they've over-foreshardowed Olly to the point they might just be trolling book readers.

In the books we never see what happened in Hardhome. We never really get much detail either.

I think D&D(&B, let's face it), have already *broken the internet* and we just don't know it yet.

1. Olly, Olly, Olly. Keeping bookreaders calm that the plot is still relatively heading in the right direction, with all the main stops along the way. But Olly/Brutus seems to almost have a learning disability concering what Jon's doing. Obvious is beyond obvious now. I'm thinking this is a troll.

2. Hardhome.

3. Hardhome.

4. Hardhome.

5. Everything has changed because of show Hardhome. Everything. (To me, anyway.)

6. In the books.... Jon never went to Hardhome. Jon sent people. Everything in the show changed when Jon went to Hardhome.

7. Show Hardhome. Jon's plan. Jon's mission (against the objections of his 2nd in command.) Jon's victory. Jon's proof at leadership. Jon killed an Other. He saved hundreds? thousands? (how many ships?) of people. The Wildlings owe him their lives. It's too BIG of a win at this point for any REAL BROTHER to even think about FTW. Unsullied would be too confused. There's an ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD. Endless renwable energy. Riders need to be sent out to the corners of the entire known world ASAP to find those DRAGONS (ravens dying in snow would be bad.)

Sure, Alliser is scowling down at him...... and it wouldn't surprise me if he actually breaks into a SMILE in the next frame or two, but we know they let them through, we see Jon inside CB in some preview photos.

Think about it - Mance is DEAD. Tormund beat Rattleshirt DEAD. Tormund also beat dead the whole glamour Jon/Mance theory that still might play out in the books.

This might be a great way to allow the show NOT to spoil something pretty damn huge in the books: How Jon lives.

If Jon doesn't get stabbed in the show, there's no mystery in the show, and no book spoilage of Jon's awakening if we don't get TWoW before season 6.

Sam's, "He always comes back." is a bone to the readers, that Jon does just that, which we all mostly knew already, but this confirms it, and we know it. (yes, you do.)

Hardhome has even changed the Pink Letter. Either there won't be a Pink Letter, or Sansa will write it, not Ramsay. Jon's "challenge" will be how to get Sansa out of Winterfell without seeming to care about taking sides, and worrying AT ALL about anything other than that HOLYFUCKINGSHITARMYOFTHEDEAD.....

Seriously. He didn't leave and join Robb. He's older and a metric shit-tonne wiser now. After being AT Hardhome, how can Jon even think about leaving the Wall for any reason, unless it's leading everyone "As far south as south goes"?

How do we even get a Pink Letter after Hardhome and the ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD?

"Dear Jon,

Please help me! They made me marry Ramsay - Imma Flay You Baby - Bolton née Snow, and he's very rapey and scary.

And they broke Theon.

Love, your half sister,

Sansa

P.S. Getting me the fuck outta here sooner would be good. hugz

Oh and, Bran and Rickon are alive."

I'M SORRY - I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THIS ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD AND THE FATE OF ALL MANKIND!

He'll have to send someone. Or we deal with all of that next season. Seems a lot of business to put in with the other stuff we're getting in only two episodes.

Or perhaps, Jon's "challenge" is, since Maester Aemon is dead, to part with Sam, and send him (and Gilly) to Old Town, and then, "HOLY FUCK WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

How do we get stabby stabby after ARMY OF THE DEAD? Hhmmm.... stabby-stabby or ARMY OF THE FUCKING DEAD AND THE FATE OF ALL MANKIND?

I think Drogon will be this next episode, and no-stabby + LS will be the end of ep 10, and break the internet.

We could then get stabby-stabby at the beginning of next season....(a year to soften following Hardhome), which NOT having it now, would still break the internet.

Or...... They burn Shireen. That will break the internet. I'd rather see Selyse try, and Mel and/or Stannis insist it be Selyse instead. It's still a female, and it will break the internet.

Or...... I've got an over-active imagination, and everything happens more or less like it did in the books. And I still have hope for LS. At this point, everyone's head would explode, especially book readers because most have given up. 2nd best troll ever for D&D&B. (1st is Rick Astley rickrolling the world at the Macy's parade.)

:D

:lol:

I take it you were entertained?

xD

Edited June 5, 2015 by roxWolfox 🍁

[Facebookless Man]

And this is not all. The massice circle jerk, me-toos and high-fives makes the whiners and insulters imagine that their views are somewhat more valid than others and they then bleed them to every topic everywhere withhordes of lemmings behind to agree with them on principle making discussion of any theme worthy of a conversation impossible on THOSE topics.

What a load of utter garbage, as you so graciously call other people's opinions.

You've been here like three days and you have literally done NOTHING but sling shit at those who dare criticize the show for any reason whatsoevet. Well, that and a couple posts in the vein of "well I just rewatched to make sure it was still awesome, and yup. Still awesome.". Hell, when you were left alone in this thread wuth no disruptive haters to antagonize you had to resort to insulting them in their absence, (and get quite a few "lemmings" to high-five you, as you put it). You have literally never attempted to formulate a cogent argument about anything until now, and this is when you decide it's time to behave like an adult? Give me a break.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[jacksonbrowne]

What a load if utter garbage, as you so graciously call other people's opinions.

You've been here like three days and you have literally done NOTHING but sling shit at those who dare criticize the show for any reason whatsoevet. Well, that and a couple posts in the vein of "well I just rewatched to make sure it was still awesome, and yup. Still awesome.". You have literally never attempted to formulate a cogent argument about anything untul now, and this is when you decide it's time to behave like an aduly? Give me a break.

Assuming it's true doesn't it make me much like you?

[Facebookless Man]

I dunno, you go read my posts backlog and get back to me.

[William_Tell]

Loved the episode. It managed to bring the WWs invasion under the spotlight while keeping them shrouded in mystery just like in the novels. I also really liked Arya's scenes, finally Braavos looked like a real city and didn't just act as background. Unlike many, I was drawn to ASOIAF and GOT by the fantasy elements and not by the political conficts and plotting (which is still great, of course), so I am glad to see that the epic mythological conflict is beginning to gain more and more attention for both viewers and characters. The final moments of the episode are probably some of my favorite in the whole series, rivaled only by the birth of dragons back in season 1

[jacksonbrowne]

I dunno, you go read my posts backlog and get back to me.

Sorry, having a modicum of this thing, whatsitname, err, yes, life, I've managed to only read about 10-15 of your last ones of your 1000+ and they all were somewhat similar with a glaring lack of significant substance in them.

Edited June 5, 2015 by jacksonbrowne

[Fylimar]

Ramsay needs to DIE, after he betrays his father. (However, it would leave a weird hole to not have a total sociopath in the story - yet.... the entire ARMY OF THE DEAD might make all that look silly now. Timing.)

Maybe, after Ramsay dies, we finally get the mad Greyjoy clan - I would count Euron and Victarion as pretty sociopathic :devil:

About the critic-discussion: I saw a lot of forums in my time - and believe it or not, this is one of the more polite ones, despite it's size. I normally like the discussions here a lot, because in most cases, I have the feeling, that the people discussing here are respecting other opinions. And as a book reader, I'm not that happy with some show decisions either. I find the show as a whole still very entertaining, but some things, I really don't like. Like them scratching the Manderleys and the Fry killing, LS is still missing, cutting out Aegon and Arianne - I don't like that, that doesn't mean, that I can't like the rest.

About this episode: It's my favorite so far. I liked the dialogue between Tyrion and Daenerys - and I'm glad, they made Dany go the sane road, that she acknowledged her fathers guilt. I always wondered, what a meeting between those two, Tyrion and Dany, would bring, and I like, how the show handeled it.

Sansa finding out about her brotehrs was great too. I hope, she will be able to escape soon. And if she will meet Stannis at some point and tell him about her brothers, that could lead to Ser Davos searching for Bran and Rickon. If Brienne is present, she might even be able to delay her revenge a while, to help Stannis and Davos in the search.

Hardhome was great, I really was very anticipated during teh fight. At one point, I was screaming at the screen, because I thought, they had killed off Dolorous Ed Tollett (he was with Wun Wun in the hall and later only Wun Wun came out and the hall was buring). The scene with those zombie children attacking that wildling woman was so creepy. And I'm glad, tehy finally brought Wun Wun in

[TheWhiteRabbit]

The fact that's the best arc so far is very telling of the whole show quality.

As I said a few pages back, the show is like a booty call. It's there to have one or two hours of fun and not make questions. But, as you also said, we, the readers can't help make questions of basic logic that is established in the show but that they break either way with the hope people say "let's not use the books! it's not the same!". Like, in that same plot, if Arya is meant to break apart from everything that makes her Arya, why is the KM using a familiar face that triggers her feelings? :dunno: Because, creatively it made sense because they wanted Tom W. to happen.

I'd actually say Jon has had the best story this season. However, I am starting to worry about how FTW will be handled. There will be plenty of shock but will the execution ring hollow?

To be fair I know this was a widely held criticism amongst bookreaders for how D&D handled The Red Wedding. However, I am not one of these people. Last week I watched that episode for the first time in awhile and the emotional impact hit me like a ton of bricks.

I'm hoping I'll feel the same way about FTW at season's end. Honestly D&D are in a tougher spot with this scene than they were with the RW. The book ended so ambiguously!!!!

Edited June 5, 2015 by TheWhiteRabbit

[El Guapo]

The problem with that is that the whining drags the general level of conversation down to the degree that wading through 90% of pure garbage to get to the one point that is worth discussing about is making the conversation regarding the topics worth discussing about impossible.

And this is not all. The massice circle jerk, me-toos and high-fives makes the whiners and insulters imagine that their views are somewhat more valid than others and they then bleed them to every topic everywhere withhordes of lemmings behind to agree with them on principle making discussion of any theme worthy of a conversation impossible on THOSE topics.

I completely agree.

[breakthewheel]

I'm slightly confused why so many people don't think 'Et tu, Brute' is going off.

Hardhome was a great action sequence, and Jon got through it alive.

Now surely, for Unsullied, they will believe all is good for Jon now- until at least another large scale sequence with the WW. All I can see is they will do it for the final episode, after successfully lulling people into a false sense of security now Jon has survived an immediate threat. Classic storytelling technique.

[Lord Godric]

Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that Olly will still be stabbing Jon. The whole Sam "sometimes you have do to things that others don't think is right" speech was not changing Olly's mind, but pushing him further to deciding to help stop Jon.