[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Suzanna Stormborn]

OMFG!!! Just for the record, I always said that Dany was pretty much fire proof.

 

I guess George's statement about "I doubt it will happen again" is total BS!!!!

 

lolz 

[shk12344]

24 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

OMFG!!! Just for the record, I always said that Dany was pretty much fire proof.

 

I guess George's statement about "I doubt it will happen again" is total BS!!!!

 

lolz 

I think it's just a tv show thing. I don't expect the book to have the same "moment".

[RumHam]

38 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

OMFG!!! Just for the record, I always said that Dany was pretty much fire proof.

 

I guess George's statement about "I doubt it will happen again" is total BS!!!!

 

lolz 

I'm still not convinced she is fireproof in the books, but that was really awesome!

Edit: Though I do think it was a good idea for the show to have her save herself, rather then a dragon ex machina moment. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm still not convinced she is fireproof in the books, but that was really awesome!

Edit: Though I do think it was a good idea for the show to have her save herself, rather then a dragon ex machina moment. 

well I dont feel great about anything on the show.  BUt do you think that fire proof walk was the show's cheaper version of Drogon doing much the same thing in Vaes Dothrak?  I mean they would fall in line under drogon about the same as they would follow the fireproof girl.

But....as a side note, she has never been burned by fire in the books.

[RumHam]

9 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

well I dont feel great about anything on the show.  BUt do you think that fire proof walk was the show's cheaper version of Drogon doing much the same thing in Vaes Dothrak?  I mean they would fall in line under drogon about the same as they would follow the fireproof girl.

But....as a side note, she has never been burned by fire in the books.

No, I actually hope Martin goes this route with the books. As I said I think it's better if it's her doing rather than Drogon rescuing her. Though I hope the books would explain why the ground was so flammable. That seemed odd. 

I have argued in the past that Dany's not invulnerable to fire, based on Martin's past comments and the fact that the idea of all Targaryens being immune to fire is clearly false. But that doesn't mean I'm against this reveal if it services the story. 

[b09boy]

 

28 minutes ago, RumHam said:

No, I actually hope Martin goes this route with the books. As I said I think it's better if it's her doing rather than Drogon rescuing her.

Disagreed entirely, and also don't think this is how it will happen at all in the books.

1) The amount of convenience required to make the scene happen as it did was unbelievable.  They needed to change Dothraki tents into a building, needed a way to block it off, needed a way to light it on fire in a hurry without anyone having an opportunity to threaten Dany.  A scene like this shouldn't be able to be pulled off in the books, not the least in part because she has no rescuers incoming, and won't because they're all busy trying to stay alive at the moment.

2) Dany shouldn't be immune to fire.  All these Targaryens who have tried this and she just happens to be the one that is immune forever, all the time?  That's insane.  Literally, insane.  I heavily prefer the idea she stumbled upon blood magic, which is what separated her insanity from the rest of her family in a one-off freak event which might just have fulfilled a prophecy the family has been trying for for centuries.  That she is immune...just because flies in the face of all who have died in her bloodline.

3) After all their fear and hatred of blood magic, the Dothraki are going to bow down to it when it kills their leaders?  Last time Dany killed a khal with blood magic she barely escaped with her hide, and had to resurrect freaking dragons from extinction to get a few hundred desperate Dothraki to kneel.  Here, she does what should appear to them to be the same to wipe out their entire leadership, and they all just take it.  Where are the blood riders seeking vengeance?  Where's the superstition?  This should not fly.

4) Even if Dany did this, she's still not doing it, if that makes any sense.  This isn't suddenly a better option than a dragon savior.  She isn't using skill or strength or wits or charm or intelligence to bring herself out of a situation.  She's using an arbitrary power her body just happens to have by nature of her birth.  It isn't empowering or earned or make her out to be a more self-sustaining individual, it's boring.  Compare with the idea that she has command over a dragon.  We're talking about a people who place their livelihood into the idea of their mounts and their expertise with them to the point where it is borderline religious, and in walks a person who can command a freaking dragon.  That hold a lot more weight, and it's something she earned far more, sacrificing for its birth and raising it as her own.

[Weirdo]

51 minutes ago, b09boy said:

 

Disagreed entirely, and also don't think this is how it will happen at all in the books.

1) The amount of convenience required to make the scene happen as it did was unbelievable.  They needed to change Dothraki tents into a building, needed a way to block it off, needed a way to light it on fire in a hurry without anyone having an opportunity to threaten Dany.  A scene like this shouldn't be able to be pulled off in the books, not the least in part because she has no rescuers incoming, and won't because they're all busy trying to stay alive at the moment.

2) Dany shouldn't be immune to fire.  All these Targaryens who have tried this and she just happens to be the one that is immune forever, all the time?  That's insane.  Literally, insane.  I heavily prefer the idea she stumbled upon blood magic, which is what separated her insanity from the rest of her family in a one-off freak event which might just have fulfilled a prophecy the family has been trying for for centuries.  That she is immune...just because flies in the face of all who have died in her bloodline.

3) After all their fear and hatred of blood magic, the Dothraki are going to bow down to it when it kills their leaders?  Last time Dany killed a khal with blood magic she barely escaped with her hide, and had to resurrect freaking dragons from extinction to get a few hundred desperate Dothraki to kneel.  Here, she does what should appear to them to be the same to wipe out their entire leadership, and they all just take it.  Where are the blood riders seeking vengeance?  Where's the superstition?  This should not fly.

4) Even if Dany did this, she's still not doing it, if that makes any sense.  This isn't suddenly a better option than a dragon savior.  She isn't using skill or strength or wits or charm or intelligence to bring herself out of a situation.  She's using an arbitrary power her body just happens to have by nature of her birth.  It isn't empowering or earned or make her out to be a more self-sustaining individual, it's boring.  Compare with the idea that she has command over a dragon.  We're talking about a people who place their livelihood into the idea of their mounts and their expertise with them to the point where it is borderline religious, and in walks a person who can command a freaking dragon.  That hold a lot more weight, and it's something she earned far more, sacrificing for its birth and raising it as her own.

I quite agree, no way anything like this happens in the books. We should recall that the last time we saw Dany, Drogon was at her side by her command, and Khal Jhaqo, with fifty men, was just riding up - the guy she swore to kill, and badly, at the end of AGoT. And she doesn't need to become Khal of the entire Dothraki horde. Twenty thousand or so would do just fine for her immediate needs. I don't think she'll need to go to Vaes Dothrak at all.

I get why they did it for the show. But George doesn't write scenes like this. It's not Indiana Jones.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

No, I actually hope Martin goes this route with the books. As I said I think it's better if it's her doing rather than Drogon rescuing her. Though I hope the books would explain why the ground was so flammable. That seemed odd. 

I have argued in the past that Dany's not invulnerable to fire, based on Martin's past comments and the fact that the idea of all Targaryens being immune to fire is clearly false. But that doesn't mean I'm against this reveal if it services the story. 

he had said "Tagaryens tolerate more heat than most people." and "I doubt she could do it again". And in the books in Dany's last chapter in DwD, she says, "it burned my hair but nothing else".

 

GRRM is just keeping her extreme fire resistance a secret.  I think it's cause he doesnt want people to think all Targaryens can do it.

ETA: and clearly all Targs cant do it, I know it's taboo to say, but Dany is special

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Oh also, I have been saying that Dany will go to Vaes D for a while to stop their slaving ways.  Did not think she would do the pyre again for a much larger audience cause I assumed Drogon would be with her.

SO since she burned all the khals at one time, with Jorah and Daario barring them in the building and clearly laying oil all over the inside, she will now have total control over what is essentially all the Dothraki there are.  SO yay for DANY!!!!!!

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

he had said "Tagaryens tolerate more heat than most people." and "I doubt she could do it again". And in the books in Dany's last chapter in DwD, she says, "it burned my hair but nothing else".

 

GRRM is just keeping her extreme fire resistance a secret.  I think it's cause he doesnt want people to think all Targaryens can do it.

 

You mean the same chapter where she mentions the blisters caused by her burns?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

You mean the same chapter where she mentions the blisters caused by her burns?

yeah she says she was climbing on the rocks and that her burns and scrapes had healed from that.  Not from Dorgons fire in the pit. From the pit she says "my hair burned but nothing else"

ETA: she is not immune to all heat, just fire

[Newstar]

Can't Dany's fire immunity be a show-only thing? It was hinted way back in Season 1 that TV Dany was immune to fire outside of magical rituals (with the scene where Dany's hands were unburned when picking up a dragon egg that had been resting in hot coals), while GRRM has always been pretty clear that Targ fire immunity is not a thing in the books.

[Consigliere]

7 hours ago, Newstar said:

Can't Dany's fire immunity be a show-only thing? It was hinted way back in Season 1 that TV Dany was immune to fire outside of magical rituals (with the scene where Dany's hands were unburned when picking up a dragon egg that had been resting in hot coals), while GRRM has always been pretty clear that Targ fire immunity is not a thing in the books.

Agreed. I think that show Dany is definitely immune to fire (the scene with the dragon egg and the brazier basically confirms that) but book Dany isn't. At best she may have a higher tolerance but that's it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

7 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Oh also, I have been saying that Dany will go to Vaes D for a while to stop their slaving ways.  Did not think she would do the pyre again for a much larger audience cause I assumed Drogon would be with her.

SO since she burned all the khals at one time, with Jorah and Daario barring them in the building and clearly laying oil all over the inside, she will now have total control over what is essentially all the Dothraki there are.  SO yay for DANY!!!!!!

 

8 hours ago, Weirdo said:

I quite agree, no way anything like this happens in the books. We should recall that the last time we saw Dany, Drogon was at her side by her command, and Khal Jhaqo, with fifty men, was just riding up - the guy she swore to kill, and badly, at the end of AGoT. And she doesn't need to become Khal of the entire Dothraki horde. Twenty thousand or so would do just fine for her immediate needs. I don't think she'll need to go to Vaes Dothrak at all.

I get why they did it for the show. But George doesn't write scenes like this. It's not Indiana Jones.

2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Agreed. I think that show Dany is definitely immune to fire (the scene with the dragon egg and the brazier basically confirms that) but book Dany isn't. At best she may have a higher tolerance but that's it.

I agree with SS that Jorah and Daario helped by blocking the doors and laying the oil on the floor. So clearly Dany had help -- as she said she should not do "it" without their help. They helped -- and she did "it" to the Khals. 

But I tend to agree that book-Dany is not fire-proof and Drogon rather than Dany will burn down Vaes Dothrak in the books. But then again, I thought Drogon would do it on the show and I was wrong, so who knows?

I disagree with Weirdo that twenty thousand or so would do. Keep in mind that Dany is TSTMTW. For her to fulfill this prophecy, she needs to become the Khal or Khals -- ruler of all the Dothraki. To do that, all the tribes needs to bow to her authority.

As to which is "better" -- having Dany burn them or Drogon burn them -- I vote for Drogon. I liked the way that the show handled it -- it was cool to see her personally burn all the khals alive. But dragon fire (or Drogon fire) is even cooler. And I don't agree that Drogon would be deus ex machina for two reasons: (1) first, Drogon's ability has been well documented in the books so such a rescue would not "come out of nowhere" and (2) Dany and Drogon have a psychic link, so of course Drogon should come to Dany's rescue.

[Consigliere]

6 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

I agree with SS that Jorah and Daario helped by blocking the doors and laying the oil on the floor. So clearly Dany had help -- as she said she should not do "it" without their help. They helped -- and she did "it" to the Khals. 

But I tend to agree that book-Dany is not fire-proof and Drogon rather than Dany will burn down Vaes Dothrak in the books. But then again, I thought Drogon would do it on the show and I was wrong, so who knows?

I disagree with Weirdo that twenty thousand or so would do. Keep in mind that Dany is TSTMTW. For her to fulfill this prophecy, she needs to become the Khal or Khals -- ruler of all the Dothraki. To do that, all the tribes needs to bow to her authority.

As to which is "better" -- having Dany burn them or Drogon burn them -- I vote for Drogon. I liked the way that the show handled it -- it was cool to see her personally burn all the khals alive. But dragon fire (or Drogon fire) is even cooler. And I don't agree that Drogon would be deus ex machina for two reasons: (1) first, Drogon's ability has been well documented in the books so such a rescue would not "come out of nowhere" and (2) Dany and Drogon have a psychic link, so of course Drogon should come to Dany's rescue.

I don't think it is an either/or situation. I'm leaning towards Dany mounting Drogon and then together they burn the Khals. "A Khal who cannot ride is no Khal" - so Dany riding the greatest mount in the world and burning the other khals would make it more believable when the rest of the Dothraki would bow down to her.

[UnmaskedLurker]

10 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I don't think it is an either/or situation. I'm leaning towards Dany mounting Drogon and then together they burn the Khals. "A Khal who cannot ride is no Khal" - so Dany riding the greatest mount in the world and burning the other khals would make it more believable when the rest of the Dothraki would bow down to her.

Great point. I just meant that I doubted that the show version will happen in the books because Dany is not fireproof in the books and because dragon fire is really cool. But yes, Dany jumping on Drogon's back and killing all the Khals seems quite plausible -- and an important development in that rather than just Drogon coming and burning stuff, the concept of Dany's ability to guide Drogon as "dragon rider" will become important to the plot (War for the Dawn 2.0 is coming) and would be a good place to introduce it.

[MakeThemBurn]

I think the show managed to pull remarkably well the same thematic storyline the books had. In the books, she has to accept her violent dragon side to control Drogon and will most likely use this side to kill the khals and take the khalasars. Her pacifist ways (due to Barristan Selmy reminding her about the Mad King at every turn) are the reason she failed in Mereen. Here we have essentially the same thing happening with Dany killing all the khals with fire & blood. The next they will show how Dany learns to control Drogon and it will have everything to do with her accepting her violent side. So they are heading at the very same goal the books did/will do.

[RumHam]

9 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

with Jorah and Daario barring them in the building and clearly laying oil all over the inside

Ah, that makes sense then. I didn't pick up on that. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Ah, that makes sense then. I didn't pick up on that. 

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that when Dany told Jorah and Daario that she needed their help, we are expected to understand that spreading the oil on the floor and barring the doors was done by them. But, of course, Dany had to be sure that she would not burn, which is why I don't think it happens this way in the books (where I agree with others that Dany will jump on Drogon and use dragon fire to kill the Khals) -- although Dany, even in the books, does need to become the Khal of Khals and fulfill the prophecy because she is TSTMTW.

[RumHam]

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that when Dany told Jorah and Daario that she needed their help, we are expected to understand that spreading the oil on the floor and barring the doors was done by them. But, of course, Dany had to be sure that she would not burn, which is why I don't think it happens this way in the books (where I agree with others that Dany will jump on Drogon and use dragon fire to kill the Khals) -- although Dany, even in the books, does need to become the Khal of Khals and fulfill the prophecy because she is TSTMTW.

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?