[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Consigliere]

51 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?

Probably in season 1 where we had the bath scene as well as the dragon egg on the brazier scene. I think the show has been pretty consistent as far as the Dany fireproof thing goes. I don't recall a scene in the show that would contradict the shows depiction of Dany being immune to heat/fire, although I could be mistaken.

[Lord Friendzone]

When I looked at Jon and his man bun. He looks more and more like Ned with each passing day and part of me hopes he's his son. And by that I mean biological but even without he wil still think of him as a father. It would be weird not to. Still wonder, when we'll get TOJ flashback.

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?

Show was always very clear with Dany being fireproof from season 1 and they do suck in many times at continuity and consistency of the show. This is only Daenerys being special and none else.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

5 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?

Lol yeah, wtf is wrong with them? Ummmmm dude, pretty sure your wife or wives are khalessi and you've tasted them. Gods the writers are dumb!

but I will say that this is the best episode in a while for Meereen and Simplified Bay. Tyrions lines actually had a purpose and things are getting done. 

 

Wrt to Dany in the books, I think Drogon will definitely be involved in the burning of the khals, but that dany will come away from the fire unscathed as she always does. ('It burnt my hair but otherwise didn't touch me').

 

she certainly has a very high heat tolerance. I think Egg in D&E had a slightly higher tolerance then most ordinary ppl (SSM) but Dany is like the most fire-resistant Targ ever.

 

 

And lol, I wouldnt be surprised if D&D completely forget jon burning his hand in season 1 and switch him to fireproof soon too. Of course that is show only. GRRM has been adamant that; 'just because Dany can do it, doesnt mean all Targs can.'------ which is the reason I always get a good chuckle when dany-detractors on the forum always give me (and others) so much shit if we say 'Dany is special'........ She is fools! Accept it lol!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Probably in season 1 where we had the bath scene as well as the dragon egg on the brazier scene. I think the show has been pretty consistent as far as the Dany fireproof thing goes. I don't recall a scene in the show that would contradict the shows depiction of Dany being immune to heat/fire, although I could be mistaken.

All the scenes in the books where she shows serious fire resistance were shown on HBO just more extreme. The bath, the eggs on the brazier, the pyre, THOTU, and draznaks pit.

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Show was always very clear with Dany being fireproof from season 1 and they do suck in many times at continuity and consistency of the show. This is only Daenerys being special and none else.

To be clear, I'm not accusing them of being inconsistent with Daenerys. It just wouldn't shock me if they were with Jon.

That said I don't think the show made it clear she was fireproof outside of the pyre event until last night. It suggested she was extra resistant to heat, sure. But as I recall that was only done in season one to foreshadow the pyre event. There was the time in House of The Undying where dragonflame was shot right next to her and she was unaffected, but that didn't seem like a clear case of her being fireproof. I figured Martin's "one time magical event" statement applied on the show too until I saw those set reports from the filming of last night's episode. I would have thought that someone who was aware she was fireproof all the time would have mentioned it, or used it to intimidate her enemies. I guess she had the dragons for that.

[Consigliere]

Some stuff I have not seen mentioned yet:

IIRC, this season is the first time the show has used the term 'The Prince That Was Promised' (it was Warrior of Light before this). Many of us have speculated that Mel in the books would eventually come to the conclusion that Jon is TPtwP and not Stannis. This has played out on the show. So can we assume that Jon=TPtwP is a done deal or is it still up in the air?

As for The Stallion Who Mounts The World prophecy: While I think the lead up to the Dothraki bowing to Dany will be different in the books (I expect Drogon to be involved), I think that the show has pretty much confirmed that it is Dany.

The Pink Letter: This is a tough one since the Northern storyline is so different to the books. For me, the author of the PL was not the real mystery; the contents of the letter were (there is certainly some truth/half truths in the letter). I still think that Ramsay is the author of the letter in the books as well but I don't think the show can help us much on confirming this one.

[UnmaskedLurker]

24 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Some stuff I have not seen mentioned yet:

IIRC, this season is the first time the show has used the term 'The Prince That Was Promised' (it was Warrior of Light before this). Many of us have speculated that Mel in the books would eventually come to the conclusion that Jon is TPtwP and not Stannis. This has played out on the show. So can we assume that Jon=TPtwP is a done deal or is it still up in the air?

As for The Stallion Who Mounts The World prophecy: While I think the lead up to the Dothraki bowing to Dany will be different in the books (I expect Drogon to be involved), I think that the show has pretty much confirmed that it is Dany.

The Pink Letter: This is a tough one since the Northern storyline is so different to the books. For me, the author of the PL was not the real mystery; the contents of the letter were (there is certainly some truth/half truths in the letter). I still think that Ramsay is the author of the letter in the books as well but I don't think the show can help us much on confirming this one.

As to TPTWP reference, I believe that Mel also used the term a couple of weeks ago (before Jon was brought back to life) when she stated that she thought Stannis was TPTWP but she was wrong. Her effort to bring Jon back seemed to be based in part on her belief that if Stannis is not TPTWP, then Jon maybe is and thus needed to be brought back. But I agree that in past seasons, she did not use that term. Interesting that the producers decided to start using that term -- I think it is probably foreshadowing of the ToJ reveal, when we find that Jon really is a prince -- additional evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. As I have said before, Jon is the Prince that was Promised -- not the Bastard that was Promised. So as to your question, is the identity of TPTWP still up in the air? For me, it has not ever been up in the air because Jon is the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, which is the song of TPTWP. But technically, as Mel has been wrong before, she can be wrong again. I just don't think she is this time.

As for TSTMTW, again, I have not had doubts about Dany being TSTMTW for quite some time (ever since I realized that Rhaego as TSTMTW was a red herring and the prophecies must be fulfilled in some manner). No one else could possibly fulfill that prophecy other than Dany, and I don't believe that GRRM intends to leave prophecies unfulfilled. What would be the point of that? So yes, I think that this episode is fairly good confirmation that Dany is TSTMTW -- but there will always be doubters.

As to the Pink Letter, given that Mance and Stannis seem to be the other two leading candidates -- and they are dead on the show -- but not confirmed dead in the books -- the Pink Letter on the show really gives no clue on the writer of the Pink Letter in the books. While the Pink Letter in both media primarily serve the purpose of drawing Jon to the south -- the contents are quite different and the show-audience knows too much about the goings on at Winterfell to have the identity of the letter be a mystery. But I thought the show-Pink Letter was even more bad-ass than the book Pink-Letter, but maybe that is a function of context (such as Sansa reading about what Ramsay planned to do with her -- and knowing that Ramsay means it).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

10 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Some stuff I have not seen mentioned yet:

IIRC, this season is the first time the show has used the term 'The Prince That Was Promised' (it was Warrior of Light before this). Many of us have speculated that Mel in the books would eventually come to the conclusion that Jon is TPtwP and not Stannis. This has played out on the show. So can we assume that Jon=TPtwP is a done deal or is it still up in the air?

As for The Stallion Who Mounts The World prophecy: While I think the lead up to the Dothraki bowing to Dany will be different in the books (I expect Drogon to be involved), I think that the show has pretty much confirmed that it is Dany.

The Pink Letter: This is a tough one since the Northern storyline is so different to the books. For me, the author of the PL was not the real mystery; the contents of the letter were (there is certainly some truth/half truths in the letter). I still think that Ramsay is the author of the letter in the books as well but I don't think the show can help us much on confirming this one.

It's totes Jon, they are spelling it out for us.

 

It's totes Dany, they are spelling that out too lol.

 

I have always thought it was Mance in the books, because of the way he calls Jon 'Bastard' so many times in the same way fRattleshirt does. since Mance is dead on the show, I guess we don't have enough info yet.

 

[RumHam]

I tend to think The Prince That Was Promised, Stallion That Mounts The World, Last Hero etc. are all just different culture's names for the same prophesized hero. Who will actually turn out to be the three dragonriders. 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I tend to think The Prince That Was Promised, Stallion That Mounts The World, Last Hero etc. are all just different culture's names for the same prophesized hero. Who will actually turn out to be the three dragonriders. 

Wasn't it supposed to be one person? Different names from different cultures leading to the same conclusion and one hero. Making it Daeny, Jon and Tyrion would be incredible dull or how to put it. So far we can make a case for Daeny and Jon with what they said and how they like to make a parallels between them...you know Ice and Fire. 

Rather it be one person and while we're at it...hopefully no more dragonriders than Daeny. Just can't see Jon ever riding one, besides Daeny if you know what I mean. I see Tyrion's role to be more of after the war but if they manage to get Tyrion on the dragon until the end of the season. They I might just change my opinion on this.

[Drogonthedread]

5 hours ago, RumHam said:

I tend to think The Prince That Was Promised, Stallion That Mounts The World, Last Hero etc. are all just different culture's names for the same prophesized hero. Who will actually turn out to be the three dragonriders. 

I agree they are all different versions of same prophecy about the dragon princess that was promised ..

Its not a coicidence we have exactly three prophecies that speak of promised Prince and dany fulfilling it making her dragon with three heads .

Anotger thing is if we take into account that this promised one is been called various names by various cultures from both essos and westeros ...only one character fit that role .

 

[Drogonthedread]

On 5/16/2016 at 8:24 PM, RumHam said:

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?

Exactly that's the same thing they did last episode too ..

Dany says she is the wife of great khal to the dosh khaleen who were also wives of khals once ..sometimes they just don't notice what they are writing. 

On 5/16/2016 at 8:01 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

Yeah, I think it is pretty clear that when Dany told Jorah and Daario that she needed their help, we are expected to understand that spreading the oil on the floor and barring the doors was done by them. But, of course, Dany had to be sure that she would not burn, which is why I don't think it happens this way in the books (where I agree with others that Dany will jump on Drogon and use dragon fire to kill the Khals) -- although Dany, even in the books, does need to become the Khal of Khals and fulfill the prophecy because she is TSTMTW.

Agreed and she also used the help of young widow ..

I loved how dany called her as khaleesi .

[Drogonthedread]

Regarding dany being fireproof in the show ...they have set up this very consistently In the show ..

I view this as how show simplify things like bran being only warg and  killing Robb's wife ..They just have to show how special dany is and powerful similar to bran .

I know people use this one time thing as a proof dany not being fireproof ...but even doing it once is miracle and shows she is special and different from other targarayens .

 

And we have Martin saying that she is someone who can do anything at anytime and she does the magic as she goes ...i won't be surprised we will see it in the books too 

In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules.

 

Notice how he talks about Aragorn's magic sword and then about dany's dragons ...lightbringer anyone 

[Shmedricko]

From last episode:

Quote

SANSA: Winterfell is our home. It’s ours and Arya’s and Bran’s and Rickon’s. Wherever they are, it belongs to our family. We have to fight for it.

JON: I’m tired of fighting. It’s all I’ve done since I left home. I’ve killed brothers of the Night’s Watch. I’ve killed wildlings. I’ve killed men that I admire. I hanged a boy younger than Bran. I fought and I lost.

SANSA: If we don’t take back the North, we’ll never be safe. I want you to help me. But I’ll do it myself if I have to.

Quote

LITTLEFINGER: I bring good news. My friends in the North tell me Sansa has escaped Winterfell. I expect she’s headed to Castle Black where her brother serves as Lord Commander. But she won’t be safe there, not with the Boltons after her.

ROBIN: She’s my cousin. We should help her.

Sansa asks Jon to help her, and then one scene later Robin Arryn decides to help Sansa because she's his cousin, which is also Sansa's true relationship to Jon if R+L=J.

From a newspaper article on Robert Aramayo, the actor who plays young Ned Stark:

Quote

Rob appears in a key flashback sequence in the show's season's third episode, titled Oathbreaker.

Dressed head to toe in battle gear and sporting a gruff, Sean Bean-esque Yorkshire accent, Rob was involved in a major fight sequence outside the Tower of Joy – one of the key battles in Game of Thrones folklore.

He will appear again briefly in episode six before another significant showing in episode ten.

It looks like the ToJ reveal won't happen until the finale. I suspect it will coincide with Jon himself learning about his parentage via the Winterfell crypts, since the battle to retake Winterfell is in episode 9.

There was also this casting call from a while back:

Quote

Young Stunner: Aged 18 – 20. She’s a stunner of a brunette. The actress has a couple of scenes, and a great final scene where there is a major twist.  This role shot the week of August 5th in Belfast. It’s theorized that she might be Lyanna Stark, and the scene was perhaps an interior scene for the Tower of Joy.

If this is indeed Lyanna, then we still need to see a couple of scenes with her before the "great final scene where there is a major twist," which further supports the ToJ reveal not occurring until much later, as there haven't been any scenes with an older Lyanna yet. Robert Aramayo's brief appearance in episode 6 might be one such scene though -- perhaps a conversation between Ned and Lyanna prior to the rebellion.

On 5/16/2016 at 8:54 AM, RumHam said:

Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned.

On 5/16/2016 at 2:40 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

And lol, I wouldnt be surprised if D&D completely forget jon burning his hand in season 1 and switch him to fireproof soon too.

Well, Jon did make this comment in episode 3:

Quote

DOLOROUS EDD: Your eyes are still brown. Is that still you in there?

JON: I think so. Hold off on burning my body for now.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 16. 5. 2016 at 10:40 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

And lol, I wouldnt be surprised if D&D completely forget jon burning his hand in season 1 and switch him to fireproof soon too. Of course that is show only. GRRM has been adamant that; 'just because Dany can do it, doesnt mean all Targs can.'------ which is the reason I always get a good chuckle when dany-detractors on the forum always give me (and others) so much shit if we say 'Dany is special'........ She is fools! Accept it lol!!

Jon burned his hand pretty easily, Viserys died thanks to molten gold. Show made i very clear Dany is the only person/Targ that is fireproof.

[Darksky]

On 16.05.2016 at 4:54 PM, RumHam said:

Yeah, I wonder when she realized she was fireproof. Also I have so little faith in the show's internal consistency that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jon is too, despite already being burned. I really had to laugh at that Khal saying he wanted to know what a Khaleesi tasted like. How do they not notice these things?

Not all of them were Khals.

The show clearly established her fire immunity in season 1.

[Darksky]

On 16.05.2016 at 3:08 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to which is "better" -- having Dany burn them or Drogon burn them -- I vote for Drogon. I liked the way that the show handled it -- it was cool to see her personally burn all the khals alive. 

If Drogon rescued her, people would complain about her being a damsel in distress and Drogon coming to her rescue YET AGAIN. Convenient

If Jorah and Daario rescued her, people would complain about her being a damsel in distress and her bodyguards coming to her rescue YET AGAIN. Convenient.

The option they went with was the only non-cliche, non-repetitive one. Also consistent with season 1 (fire immunity) and one that has shown us her character progressing, having agency.

[Consigliere]

11 hours ago, Darksky said:

Not all of them were Khals.

The one who said that line was a khal. Khal Rhalko, I believe.

[RumHam]

17 hours ago, Darksky said:

Not all of them were Khals.

Yeah, as Consigliere said Rhalko was a Khal. Those were all the Khals in that room having their big meeting. 

17 hours ago, Darksky said:

The show clearly established her fire immunity in season 1.

Again, I don't see any reason why Martin's "it was a one time magical event" statement wouldn't be assumed to also apply to the show until last week's episode. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Wow! I am going to need a therapist after tonight.