[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Lord Friendzone]

We all gonna need one. D&D got it from George himself so...it's not something created by them. We got only Ghost left and Nymeria is she makes it to the show back somehow but I guess Benjen might be therider that saved Bran and Meera in the promo. His name was dropped during one of the scenes. Btw spoilers that were making rounds were true. Dammit didn't want to belive them. Don't look forward to Bastardbowl...it's seriously depressing stuff.

[UnmaskedLurker]

On 5/22/2016 at 7:03 PM, Darksky said:

If Drogon rescued her, people would complain about her being a damsel in distress and Drogon coming to her rescue YET AGAIN. Convenient

If Jorah and Daario rescued her, people would complain about her being a damsel in distress and her bodyguards coming to her rescue YET AGAIN. Convenient.

The option they went with was the only non-cliche, non-repetitive one. Also consistent with season 1 (fire immunity) and one that has shown us her character progressing, having agency.

I agree. I Admitted that the way the show did it was quite cool, and I agree with this analysis. I just think that dragon fire is SOOOO cool and dramatic that I would love it even more.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

23 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

We all gonna need one. D&D got it from George himself so...it's not something created by them. We got only Ghost left and Nymeria is she makes it to the show back somehow but I guess Benjen might be therider that saved Bran and Meera in the promo. His name was dropped during one of the scenes. Btw spoilers that were making rounds were true. Dammit didn't want to belive them. Don't look forward to Bastardbowl...it's seriously depressing stuff.

yeah but ok.  If the line is 'Hold the Door.'  They cant possibly be in the cave, there has never been a door mentioned in the cave in the books, i mean its a root filled cave, there are no doors.  And I doubt GRRM is going to kill off LEqaf, BR, Summer and Hodor all at one time in such a stupid way.  I mean wtf are bran and meera going to do to get away?  they can maybe get 20 yrds before they are overtaken.  There's no way that scene is book accurate besides that one line.

[UnmaskedLurker]

4 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

yeah but ok.  If the line is 'Hold the Door.'  They cant possibly be in the cave, there has never been a door mentioned in the cave in the books, i mean its a root filled cave, there are no doors.  And I doubt GRRM is going to kill off LEqaf, BR, Summer and Hodor all at one time in such a stupid way.  I mean wtf are bran and meera going to do to get away?  they can maybe get 20 yrds before they are overtaken.  There's no way that scene is book accurate besides that one line.

Sure there will be differences. But Hold the Door is the meaning of Hodor in the books as well. GRRM more or less confirmed it. (see this post from another thread -- 

 

[Lord Friendzone]

24 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

yeah but ok.  If the line is 'Hold the Door.'  They cant possibly be in the cave, there has never been a door mentioned in the cave in the books, i mean its a root filled cave, there are no doors.  And I doubt GRRM is going to kill off LEqaf, BR, Summer and Hodor all at one time in such a stupid way.  I mean wtf are bran and meera going to do to get away?  they can maybe get 20 yrds before they are overtaken.  There's no way that scene is book accurate besides that one line.

Only thing that we got confirmed is Hodor and "Hold the Door"...it might be in a different scenario. Summer death was empty, she could've just run wth them and protected them further in another eisodes. Instead of we're on direwolf killing spree. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the season is no direwolf left at all. Although it might be a little bit symbolic Summer ends  and Winter comes.

Btw this is in the show Max Von Sydow plays 3ER and never mentioned by the name Bloodraven as on the show he's thousand of years old. Can't be Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers. Just like Night's KIng is most likely invention by D&D based on feedback from George. They wanted someone to go against Daeny.

 

Really like Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger...this is set up for some serios business. Jon being compared to Ramsay. Snarky comment from Baelish about Jon being only half-brother. Sansa not trusting Jon which was confirmed by Weiss in Insie of the episode.. Truly interesting North storyline ahead of us and wouldn't be surprised if Jon was really angry with Sansa. Hope she's playing Littlefinger here or their relatonship could go sour really quickly.

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Suzanna Stormborn--

I have a question for you. My recollection is that you thought that Dragonbinder would play an important role in allowing someone (Tyrion, Victarion, Euron ???) to bond with a dragon. Now that we know that the show did not include Dragonbinder at all, have you revised you thoughts on how the horn might play into the books? Certainly if Tyrion will ride a dragon, the horn cannot be how he is able to ride -- which again leaves only Dragonblood to explain how he can ride, right?

[RumHam]

I think Euron could still pull the horn out at some point. I'd hope his plan isn't just "sail over to Mereen and charm Daenerys with boats." He should have some reason to think he can convince her to marry him beyond just the thousand ships. (He shouldn't even know her fleet was burnt, because if he knew that then he'd surely know she was missing and presumed dead.) Something that helps her control the other dragons could be it. Though I tend to think the horn doesn't really work that way, and is probably used to establish the blood bond.

They could even show on screen what happened off-screen in the books. Have Euron encounter a warlock ship en route to Mereen and take the horn from them. Possibly having a warlock take the Moqorro role of the guy who misleads Euron about the horn's nature.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

34 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I think Euron could still pull the horn out at some point. I'd hope his plan isn't just "sail over to Mereen and charm Daenerys with boats." He should have some reason to think he can convince her to marry him beyond just the thousand ships. (He shouldn't even know her fleet was burnt, because if he knew that then he'd surely know she was missing and presumed dead.) Something that helps her control the other dragons could be it. Though I tend to think the horn doesn't really work that way, and is probably used to establish the blood bond.

They could even show on screen what happened off-screen in the books. Have Euron encounter a warlock ship en route to Mereen and take the horn from them. Possibly having a warlock take the Moqorro role of the guy who misleads Euron about the horn's nature.

 

If show-Euron had a horn, he would have shown it at the KM to ensure his victory. And with Euron stuck on Iron Islands, there is really no way to get such a horn over to Essos. In the books, I think the horn was used "to better control" the dragons -- not to bond with the dragons, but I am not sure. Whatever the horn is used for, I think it must end up being a dead end in some fashion -- or at least not essential to the endgame, given that the show has excluded it.

[RumHam]

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

If show-Euron had a horn, he would have shown it at the KM to ensure his victory. And with Euron stuck on Iron Islands, there is really no way to get such a horn over to Essos. In the books, I think the horn was used "to better control" the dragons -- not to bond with the dragons, but I am not sure. Whatever the horn is used for, I think it must end up being a dead end in some fashion -- or at least not essential to the endgame, given that the show has excluded it.

I wouldn't be so sure. Lots of people thought the Reeds were cut when they didn't show up when expected. But of course they weren't. The show often shifts things from the books around or remixes them. You know Euron isn't going to be stuck on the Iron Islands for long. I'd be surprised if his Iron Fleet wasn't ready to sail by the end of the season. They're being especially loose with the passage of time this season. Anyway as I said he may not have the thing yet. He may acquire the horn on his way to Mereen, if the writers feel like picking up the warlock revenge plot thread. Or they could introduce the horn later in a way totally unrelated to Euron, if it's important to the plot. 

I never really thought the horn would be essential to the end game. I think you know I believe Jon and Tyrion will be the other two dragon riders at the end and that they won't need to use a horn. But it could cause quite a bit of mayhem between now and then. I certainly don't see it being a dead-end. It's going to have some effect, just maybe not in the way we're supposed to be expecting.

Anyway I really don't think we should draw conclusions based on the show. Especially because with all the talk of wrapping things up in two more (possibly shortened) seasons there's a good chance the show will skip "Aegon" and the second Dance of Dragons entirely. Personally I don't think the second Dance will be a war between Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion. So I'm inclined to believe other people will mount Rhaegal and/or Viserion in the meantime. Unless more dragons are going to show up. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

9 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Suzanna Stormborn--

I have a question for you. My recollection is that you thought that Dragonbinder would play an important role in allowing someone (Tyrion, Victarion, Euron ???) to bond with a dragon. Now that we know that the show did not include Dragonbinder at all, have you revised you thoughts on how the horn might play into the books? Certainly if Tyrion will ride a dragon, the horn cannot be how he is able to ride -- which again leaves only Dragonblood to explain how he can ride, right?

Yeah in the book I think the horn will get victarion a dragon (and Dany) for a short time.

On the show I think that they could still have a horn, they just havent gotten into that yet.  Maybe Asha's trip to Meereen will be full of Dragon information lol?maybe there is horn on the ship; and they'll just find it on the voyage, idk the show is so silly it could do anything whether it makes sense or not.

 

If there is no horn on the show, then somehow the ironborn will get a dragon i guess, idk. But Asha and Theon stole the whole fleet out from under Euron so idk how he is going to follow them to Meereen.

 

But to answer your question the show has not changed my opinion on the horn.  The books WILL be better than this and Summer and Shaggy were only killed off to satisfy the CGI budget! (sorry I'm still upset)

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

I think Euron could still pull the horn out at some point. I'd hope his plan isn't just "sail over to Mereen and charm Daenerys with boats." He should have some reason to think he can convince her to marry him beyond just the thousand ships. (He shouldn't even know her fleet was burnt, because if he knew that then he'd surely know she was missing and presumed dead.) Something that helps her control the other dragons could be it. Though I tend to think the horn doesn't really work that way, and is probably used to establish the blood bond.

They could even show on screen what happened off-screen in the books. Have Euron encounter a warlock ship en route to Mereen and take the horn from them. Possibly having a warlock take the Moqorro role of the guy who misleads Euron about the horn's nature.

 

Keep dreaming.. I totally agree but no way do they care enough to do all that.

 

I mean why did Euron admit to killing Balon? Why would the ironborn support that? It literally does not makes sense

[Suzanna Stormborn]

but I do think that Arya being set to kill the 'Cersei' actress on the show means that the Arya= Valonqar theory is correct.  She will be the one to do it.

[bent branch]

I'm not sure if this is the place to leave this, but some time ago I posted that I thought Lyanna had originally been taken as a hostage against the Starks and Roberts behavior (like Theon with the Starks). When Brandon did what he did, Rhaegar took Lyanna into hiding so his father couldn't hurt her. This is why no one could find Rhaegar for a time.

Anyhow, I think the time is quickly approaching that the series might reveal this. The appropriate time for this to be revealed is when we see Lyanna just before she dies. I just wanted to make note of this before it actually happens in the series.

As to why Lyanna would be taken, I think the Starks and Robert were actually conspiring against the throne. I think guilt from this is one of the reasons Robert took Lyanna's death so hard.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 hours ago, bent branch said:

I'm not sure if this is the place to leave this, but some time ago I posted that I thought Lyanna had originally been taken as a hostage against the Starks and Roberts behavior (like Theon with the Starks). When Brandon did what he did, Rhaegar took Lyanna into hiding so his father couldn't hurt her. This is why no one could find Rhaegar for a time.

Anyhow, I think the time is quickly approaching that the series might reveal this. The appropriate time for this to be revealed is when we see Lyanna just before she dies. I just wanted to make note of this before it actually happens in the series.

As to why Lyanna would be taken, I think the Starks and Robert were actually conspiring against the throne. I think guilt from this is one of the reasons Robert took Lyanna's death so hard.

Interesting, I have no idea how Bran will see anymore of this though, since BR (with a cropped do) just died without telling Bran anything of value.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4kruq7/spoilers_everything_got_to_hear_grrms_thoughts_on/

 

Check this out, GRRM says Hodor dying was shown out of context on the show. THANK the GODS

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4kruq7/spoilers_everything_got_to_hear_grrms_thoughts_on/

Check this out, GRRM says Hodor dying was shown out of context on the show. THANK the GODS

Not only out of context but in "how it happens" as well. Hopefully Martin does not go down the route of Bran being capable of affecting the past or if he does, it is restricted to this one event.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Hopefully Martin does not go down the route of Bran being capable of affecting the past or if he does, it is restricted to this one event.

I thought that was kind of the main point of the scene.  When I was watching it, my brother was like "why the hell doesn't BR tap Bran out of the vision like he's done EVERY TIME before."  Because Bran had always caused Wylis' Hodorism and BR wanted to demonstrate to Bran as a final lesson/warning that meddling in the past both (and somewhat paradoxically) has grave consequences and will not change the present.  I think this conforms to BR's warnings to Bran in the books as well.  I also think this is why a lot of the discussion about when past-Bran was warging Wylis or present-Hodor or both kinda misses what the scene is trying to convey.  We need to see Bran crying as he sees what was inflicted upon Hodor because that's the entire reason BR sent them there.  Whether this fits with the logic both doesn't really matter and is open to interpretation.

Overall, I thought the whole sequence was the best, and most well-done, sequence the show has done since Season 4 outside of Hardhome.  It was very powerful, for the medium.  But, it will of course be different in the books, if only because the scene doesn't really work on the page.  First, Hodor's sacrifice (I know, I know, you don't necessarily have to call it that) wouldn't mean much of anything in the context of the book world because Bran and Meera would still be fucked since, ya know, they're still in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard and people travel at realistic rates.  That isn't necessarily a dig on the show; they can end the episode on the tragedy of Hodor and (it appears) expediently explain away how Bran gets to wherever he's going in a 5 - 10 minute scene the next episode.  Trying to do this would subvert the tragedy of Hodor's actions much more clearly in the books.  Plus, as a personal bias, I still think the crypts have something to do with Hodor.

Moreover, the entire scene just comes off better on TV than in written form.  For example, writing down the opening to it would be like:

Quote

The Night King stood outside with his lieutenants and army of the dead.  Since Bran was marked, the Night King was able to pound on the ground.  As he did, part of the ground shattered to the opening to the cave, which rumbled.  "Get Bran!"  Leaf screamed, and Meera ran.

I mean, it's like, WTF?  I thought it worked fine on the show, but no, can't see reading this from Martin.  Same goes for Dany's scene last week.  Thought it worked great on TV, and I think most everybody here has agreed for years Dany will end up leading a huge khalasar in TWOW fairly quickly, but I don't see it happening that way in the books (although admittedly the "fireproof" aspect of that scene, and whether that was the second of Dany's "three fires," are much more interesting points of debate).

Finally, in other news, I DO think the origin of the Others reveal will be the same in the books.  Of course, I also expect the show will not touch on this much more other than the narratively inevitable reveal of "hey, how the hell do we defeat them?" part.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

 

I mean, it's like, WTF?  I thought it worked fine on the show, but no, can't see reading this from Martin.  Same goes for Dany's scene last week.  Thought it worked great on TV, and I think most everybody here has agreed for years Dany will end up leading a huge khalasar in TWOW fairly quickly, but I don't see it happening that way in the books (although admittedly the "fireproof" aspect of that scene, and whether that was the second of Dany's "three fires," are much more interesting points of debate).

 

Yup totally agree!  So much of this is D$D fabrication, not from Martin at all.

[Consigliere]

18 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Finally, in other news, I DO think the origin of the Others reveal will be the same in the books.  Of course, I also expect the show will not touch on this much more other than the narratively inevitable reveal of "hey, how the hell do we defeat them?" part.

Definitely. A long held theory on the Heresy threads has just been confirmed, I'd say.

[UnmaskedLurker]

26 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Definitely. A long held theory on the Heresy threads has just been confirmed, I'd say.

Why was CoF creating the Others considered such a minority view as to be part of the Heresy threads?

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Why was CoF creating the Others considered such a minority view as to be part of the Heresy threads?

No idea but the impression I get is that it might be due to the stigma attached to Heresy where many equate Heresy with "crackpot". I've not actually seen this idea explored outside of Heresy.