[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Lord Friendzone]

Not only that. She also knows that LF will aim at Jon. She wants to be Queen but she doesn't want his death.

[Lord Varys]

That King in the North thing might as quickly dissolve into nothingness as Cersei I Lannister is going to be ousted. Once Bran comes back and tells Sansa and Jon who the hell Jon Snow actually Jon might even step down and try to connect with Daenerys and Tyrion, asking their help to fight the Others, and handing the North to Bran.

Sansa won't get anything and in the show that seriously should become an issue as it might in the books. I still think the best way in the books would be to have Sansa and Littlefinger aiming at the throne via Aegon because Sansa actually can marry Aegon (while she cannot marry Jon Snow, Bran, Rickon, or Stannis). Not to mention that book Sansa might eventually be much more, let's say, willing to follow Petyr's advice. If he successfully kindles the flame of ambition in her heart then any news about Stannis, Rickon, Jon, whoever installing himself at Winterfell might not be exactly to her liking.

The thing is, the books make it very unlikely that the Vale is going to go North in the middle of winter, especially not to fight a war of conquest there. But in the South there is a good chance for some warfare yet, and the news about Aegon certainly should cause Littlefinger to adjust his plans accordingly. Sansa cannot possibly marry Daenerys. But if the Vale comes to save Aegon's ass at KL (or helps him take the city) then they certainly could demand that he marry Sansa. Especially if she is by that time also the widow of the Lord of the Vale (because they married her to Harry, murdered Lord Robert, and had Harry die heroically in battle).

Aegon being torn between Sansa Stark and Arianne Martell would be a rather interesting story. And Aegon easily could end up in a position in which he takes two queens or is forced to do so by the circumstances.

[Shmedricko]

8 hours ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I'm a supporter of AJT but we've had no progression on that front since his scene with the dragons.

One detail I did notice though, which I was reminded of during the Previously On segment, is the potential symmetry in episode 9, with the siblings Theon & Yara standing opposite the siblings Tyrion & Dany (image 1 image 2), talking about how they share terrible fathers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9Jo6xS_Er0&feature=youtu.be&t=85

Quote

THEON: Our Uncle Euron returned home after a long absence. He murdered our father and took the Salt Throne from Yara. He would have murdered us if we'd stayed.

DAENERYS: Lord Tyrion tells me your father was a terrible king.

YARA: You and I have that in common.

DAENERYS: We do. And both murdered by a usurper as well.

Cuts to Tyrion

Quote

DAENERYS: Our fathers were evil men, all of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to leave the world better than we found it.

[Sly Wren]

13 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Well, I guess we basically just got confirmation of RLJ. I suspect there will be "hold outs" who think that just because RLJ is true in the show does not mean it is true in the books -- but that is "tinfoil" thinking -- Jon's origin has to be the same in both media because it is too central to the story.

I agree on the bolded--VERY unlikely the show and books will make the parentage different.

But on the "parentage"--they confirmed X+L=J. The "R" is still very, very possible. But not confirmed.

But they absolutely confirmed that Arthur Dayne and his Sun-Sigil Sword (ugh! I know they had budget constraints, but would it have killed them to make Dawn look like Dawn??) were really, really, really important.

Arthur's the only one who mattered in the fight. Ser Whent-Tower the Highly Disposable Conglomerate was most definitely disposable.

They had Arthur swing his sword, plant it so the camera focused on that Sun Thingy twice. Then had him drop his sword towards Ned after Howland stabbed him. Then had Ned use Dawn to kill Arthur. Then had Ned take Dawn with Arthur's blood on it into the tower. 

Then had Ned place Dawn Sunny-Side up at the foot of Lyanna's bed. Camera focused on the pommel and the sigil with Lyanna in the back.

The show doesn't embrace subtle all that well (on occasion, but not often). They spent the money and time and camera angles and lines on Arthur and his death and his sword. And then they put THAT sword covered in Arthur's blood at the foot of Lyanna's bloody bed. If Arthur is Jon's father, that would make a ton of sense.

They are definitely telling us something. At the VERY least--Arthur Dayne and his sword really, really, really matter.

[Consigliere]

I don't see even a tiny possibility of AD+L=J. As far as I'm concerned the show has pretty much confirmed R+L=J. A bit annoyed that we did not get explicit confirmation but I guess the showrunners want fans to spend the interim speculating. As for AD's sword being placed at the foot of Lyanna's bed, I don't believe it means anything more than Ned took the sword to later return it to the Daynes. The only reason the camera focused on the sword was to make it as clear as possible to the viewers that this was in fact Dayne's sword and not Neds.

[RumHam]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei I Lannister is going to be ousted.

She'd better be. She usurped Brienne's throne! I think. I can't think who else still exists on the show and would be in line for it. Apart from Jon and Dany. 

[JGP]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree on the bolded--VERY unlikely the show and books will make the parentage different.

But on the "parentage"--they confirmed X+L=J. The "R" is still very, very possible. But not confirmed.

But they absolutely confirmed that Arthur Dayne and his Sun-Sigil Sword (ugh! I know they had budget constraints, but would it have killed them to make Dawn look like Dawn??) were really, really, really important.

Arthur's the only one who mattered in the fight. Ser Whent-Tower the Highly Disposable Conglomerate was most definitely disposable.

They had Arthur swing his sword, plant it so the camera focused on that Sun Thingy twice. Then had him drop his sword towards Ned after Howland stabbed him. Then had Ned use Dawn to kill Arthur. Then had Ned take Dawn with Arthur's blood on it into the tower. 

Then had Ned place Dawn Sunny-Side up at the foot of Lyanna's bed. Camera focused on the pommel and the sigil with Lyanna in the back.

The show doesn't embrace subtle all that well (on occasion, but not often). They spent the money and time and camera angles and lines on Arthur and his death and his sword. And then they put THAT sword covered in Arthur's blood at the foot of Lyanna's bloody bed. If Arthur is Jon's father, that would make a ton of sense.

They are definitely telling us something. At the VERY least--Arthur Dayne and his sword really, really, really matter.

All this is specious at best. I took it as it was presented. The Sword of the Morning dead doing his duty, protecting an heir to the realm-- and his greatsword appropriated by Ned and probably hidden in the Stark crypts for Jon to take up [a two-hander is ideal for him as he seldom fights with a shield] and Dawn as his weapon is good symbology considering he's the PtwP and will be at the forefront in the War of the Long Night.

He could then give Longclaw back to the Mormonts, which would be a good character moment between he and Lyanna M [hell, maybe between himself and Jorah, who knows]

As to the rest, no way in hell did Ser Arthur besmirch his honor by raping Lyanna -and it would have been rape, as there's been skepticism cast on the accepted narrative of Lyanna's kidnapping and rape by Rhaegar- especially given Barristan's in-show attestation to Rhaegar's innate character.  

[Ssangkall]

But the OP's jon going south thing would happen at the end of the season?

[Jô Maltese]

AJT: Half-siblings Sansa and Jon showing their 'brotherhood' and 'we need to trust each other' and cuddle... CUT... Dany and Tyrion performing a 'I believe in you, I am your servant - I trust you you are my hand'... Half-siblings Dany and Tyrion.

[Scorpion92]

I think the show showed so many parallels between Mad King and Cersei yesterday, that I am more in the camp of Jaime and Cersei being Mad King's kids.

Tyrion is Tywin's true son. And Dany giving him the Hand title is direct parallel to his father. That is how I interpret it. Tywin was ruling in Aerys's name for 20 years and was pretty good. Tyrion did a relatively good job in his short time in Mereen in Dany's absence. He will probably do even better once they are in Westeros - especially Dany having only two opponents next season, Euron and Cersei.

Last season will be entirely between Jon and Dany and the Battle of the Dawn between them for Iron Throne (Euron will be dead, and Cersei will be in power only in the capital and plotting to burn the whole city before giving the throne either to Jon or Dany).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tyrion Lannister Hand of the Queen.!!!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

She'd better be. She usurped Brienne's throne! I think. I can't think who else still exists on the show and would be in line for it. Apart from Jon and Dany. 

So I watched it closely to see what name she whispered.  This is what the internet says she says; 

"No, no water. Listen to me, Ned. His name is ... if Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will. You have to protect him. Promise me, Ned. Promise me."

If you look close you can see she says "Aemon". I bet my car that's what she says. His name is Aemon.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Les Diables Rouges said:

As for AD's sword being placed at the foot of Lyanna's bed, I don't believe it means anything more than Ned took the sword to later return it to the Daynes. The only reason the camera focused on the sword was to make it as clear as possible to the viewers that this was in fact Dayne's sword and not Neds.

But why on earth spend money and time on such a thing given all that they cut? They brought up Arthur in only one previous scene--the one with Joff and Jaime and the White Book. In that scene, they made no mention of Dawn, or Starfall. No one has talked of Ned taking back the sword. Not even Bran and Bloodraven when they were actually watching the fight. 

So, WHY is it important that Ned used that sword vs. his own? They spent money on the distinction. The books make a big deal of the Daynes--bring them up a lot. And Arthur and his sword have shown up a number of times in various book memories. The book makes him into a big deal. But the show only just did so--why? Because he and that sword actually matter.

No other reason to spend the time and money.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

All this is specious at best. I took it as it was presented. The Sword of the Morning dead doing his duty, protecting an heir to the realm--

If that were the case, why is the other guy so completely disposable? Bran doesn't bat an eye over him. Neither do viewers. 

The whole scene is about the fight between Ned and Arthur. About Bran's learning that the story he's heard his whole life is a lie--the story of how his dad killed the greatest swordsman of his age. Blood raven even prompts this line of reasoning when Bran says" Father defeated him." Bloodraven says, "did he?" Then Bran is horrified and disgusted and cries out. 

The revelation to Bran is that the fight between Ned and Arthur did NOT go as he's heard. Not that the fight with Arthur and the Unnamed Armed Guy didn't go as reported. Only with Arthur. Arthur is the key here, not dying for the realm. If it were about the realm, the other guy would matter. He doesn't.

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

and his greatsword appropriated by Ned and probably hidden in the Stark crypts for Jon to take up [a two-hander is ideal for him as he seldom fights with a shield] and Dawn as his weapon is good symbology considering he's the PtwP and will be at the forefront in the War of the Long Night.

In the show, it could be in the crypts. But again--Dawn has not been mentioned as special at all so far in the show. Only in the books. So far, in the show, the sunny-sword is the sword of the man Ned killed in a way Bran did not hear of. No symbolism of its being powerful. Only that it belongs to Arthur. 

But I agree that Jon is very likely to use Dawn in the Long Night.

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

He could then give Longclaw back to the Mormonts, which would be a good character moment between he and Lyanna M [hell, maybe between himself and Jorah, who knows]

Agreed--Little Fabulous Bear Queen getting her family sword back would be cool.

4 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

As to the rest, no way in hell did Ser Arthur besmirch his honor by raping Lyanna -and it would have been rape, as there's been skepticism cast on the accepted narrative of Lyanna's kidnapping and rape by Rhaegar- especially given Barristan's in-show attestation to Rhaegar's innate character.  

I completely agree that Arthur, based on all we've heard, would rape Lyanna. And I will faint with shock if Rhaegar raped her. Ned's fairly "blah" response to Rhaegar in his limited thoughts on the man just don't go with rape.

But a consensual relationship with Arthur--the novels repeatedly hit the point that even the most noble, most honorable, most oath-driven men break their vows. That the kingsguard are no different. That Arthur could fall for Lyanna and she for him--that would fit.

And would fit with why Ned (in the show) isn't much fussed over killing Arthur WHEN he does it, but NEVER tells about the circumstances afterwards (Bran is clearly stunned and horrified). Guilt is powerful.

And the guilt of unknowingly killing the man his sister loved and the father of her child--that would weigh on Ned for a LONG time.

[Consigliere]

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But why on earth spend money and time on such a thing given all that they cut? They brought up Arthur in only one previous scene--the one with Joff and Jaime and the White Book. In that scene, they made no mention of Dawn, or Starfall. No one has talked of Ned taking back the sword. Not even Bran and Bloodraven when they were actually watching the fight. 

So, WHY is it important that Ned used that sword vs. his own? They spent money on the distinction. The books make a big deal of the Daynes--bring them up a lot. And Arthur and his sword have shown up a number of times in various book memories. The book makes him into a big deal. But the show only just did so--why? Because he and that sword actually matter.

No other reason to spend the time and money.

Eh, what show are you watching because GoT regularly spends time and money on irrelevant stuff. I suggest you find a way to let go of your pet theory and move on. R+L=J is a done deal. 

Furthermore, AD and Dawn being important is in no way dependent on AD being Jon's father. That theory has always been only marginally less ridiculous than the other alternatives.

[JGP]

Yeah, it's a reach too far. The only way it works is: that Rhaegar, while honorable in not raping the object of his desire, did indeed kidnap her [and that only works if she was unmoved by his declaration at Harrenhall-- which hasn't been established either way, but there's definitely some sketicism regarding the 'kidnapped and raped' narrative] So, Rhaegar, an honorable and 'romantic' man kidnaps Lyanna but doesn't rape her. Meanwhile, keeping the object close so none else could possibly have her [else why bother without consummation or rape] he doesn't notice a budding romance between Dayne and his captive?

Nah, man. I'm completely dismissing it. 

[JGP]

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

In the show, it could be in the crypts. But again--Dawn has not been mentioned as special at all so far in the show. Only in the books. So far, in the show, the sunny-sword is the sword of the man Ned killed in a way Bran did not hear of. No symbolism of its being powerful. Only that it belongs to Arthur. 

The symbolism I'm implying is the name. That's it.

[Weirdo]

22 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I doubt that the CC will say anything other that "whispers" but I am not sure. It really looked like she was saying "Aemon" but maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part.

The captioning just says 'whispers'. I just watched it twenty times with the headphones cranked, and I'm convinced her first whispered statement is 'His name is Aegon'. Her lips don't meet to make the 'm' sound in the middle of the word, either - watch it with that in mind, and see what you think.

The show didn't do the Aegon plot, or the Undying vision, so that name wouldn't cause any confusion. They've mentioned Aegon the conqueror quite a bit though.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ He says Aemon.....IIRC isn't Jon 'always the Dragonknight when him and Robb played as children" or something?

 

 

[Weirdo]

Watch her lips. There's no 'm'. It looks and sounds like she's saying Aegon.