[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Onna Lewyys]

Well, I've had a possibly crackpot theory for a while that Dany might actually end up staying in the north to lead the NW and rebuild the Wall at the end of the series, while Jon goes south to rule. After Dany turns away from the throne in the show-HOTU sequence, she goes through the gate at the Wall. And I think it's interesting that she has the same nickname as the woman who disguised herself as a man to join the NW, "Brave DANNY Flint."

[The other prince]

The rebirth/resurrection will happen next season. Everyone expect Jon to be back, but the real question is how he will come back. That's going to be the cliff hanger, far as many book reader and tv viewers are concerned.

I have said this many times and I'll say it again, I don't expect Mel to play any role in Jon's rebirth/resurrection.

I really DO think she will have a role to play. I think it will be a combination though or her resurrection and warging into ghost. She will bring him back to life but he will be comatose because his soul is in Ghosts body. This will explain why he doesn't suffer any side effects from being resurrected. Then right after the wall is brought down his eyes will open.

[xjlxking]

I really DO think she will have a role to play. I think it will be a combination though or her resurrection and warging into ghost. She will bring him back to life but he will be comatose because his soul is in Ghosts body. This will explain why he doesn't suffer any side effects from being resurrected. Then right after the wall is brought down his eyes will open.

you think the wall will go down?

[TheAzorAhai]

The rebirth/resurrection will happen next season. Everyone expect Jon to be back, but the real question is how he will come back. That's going to be the cliff hanger, far as many book reader and tv viewers are concerned.
 
I have said this many times and I'll say it again,  I don't expect Mel to play any role in Jon's rebirth/resurrection.

I've had a feeling about this too. R'hllor is the Lord of Light, the fire god if you will. But Jon worships the old gods, and that leads me to Bran/BR having a hand in his resurrection.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So Davos fighting over Jon Snow's dead body huh? I just had some kind of fit when I watched it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just found this thread -- did not know it existed until today. Looking forward to this season and cautiously optimistic that confirmation of both RLJ and AJT will be provided this season, but I think confirmation of RLJ is almost certain based on the rumors about ToJ that seem to have been circulating. I just wonder if either of these theories is revealed on HBO how many doubters will still try to claim that the show series is not the book series and it still might not be true in the books.

By the way, SS, it might be helpful to add links to the prior versions of this thread to the OP.

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just found this thread -- did not know it existed until today. Looking forward to this season and cautiously optimistic that confirmation of both RLJ and AJT will be provided this season, but I think confirmation of RLJ is almost certain based on the rumors about ToJ that seem to have been circulating. I just wonder if either of these theories is revealed on HBO how many doubters will still try to claim that the show series is not the book series and it still might not be true in the books.

By the way, SS, it might be helpful to add links to the prior versions of this thread to the OP.

Well, then it changes from "AJT is subversive to Tyrion's story and won't happen" to "AJT is subversive to Tyrion's story, I can't believe it happens"

[UnmaskedLurker]

57 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Well, then it changes from "AJT is subversive to Tyrion's story and won't happen" to "AJT is subversive to Tyrion's story, I can't believe it happens"

I would be thrilled with such a change (assuming by "can't believe it happens" you mean they are expressing outrage and not a genuine disbelief). The "subversive" view is merely a subjective opinion, and I think everyone is entitled to have his or her own opinion of what makes for a better story. People are entitled to believe that GRRM never should have written AJT because the story would be better with Tyrion as the "true" son of Tywin (even though I believe it would make impossible GRRM's endgame regarding the threads of the dragon -- but I don't want to get sidetracked on the reasons why AJT likely is true). My issue is with people who allow their personal preference to cloud their judgment regarding the analysis of the books (not saying that all disbelievers are merely taking a position based on such personal preferences, but I believe a certain number are). Be as outraged as they want -- fine with me -- just be objective in the analysis of where the books actually are going. I encourage people who don't want AJT to be true to go ahead and state how much AJT is a horrible plot development -- just don't deny that AJT is a reality.

[JonSnow4President]

2 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I would be thrilled with such a change (assuming by "can't believe it happens" you mean they are expressing outrage and not a genuine disbelief). The "subversive" view is merely a subjective opinion, and I think everyone is entitled to have his or her own opinion of what makes for a better story. People are entitled to believe that GRRM never should have written AJT because the story would be better with Tyrion as the "true" son of Tywin (even though I believe it would make impossible GRRM's endgame regarding the threads of the dragon -- but I don't want to get sidetracked on the reasons why AJT likely is true). My issue is with people who allow their personal preference to cloud their judgment regarding the analysis of the books (not saying that all disbelievers are merely taking a position based on such personal preferences, but I believe a certain number are). Be as outraged as they want -- fine with me -- just be objective in the analysis of where the books actually are going. I encourage people who don't want AJT to be true to go ahead and state how much AJT is a horrible plot development -- just don't deny that AJT is a reality.

Not genuine disbelief, but just kind of shellshocked (like after watching Sansa's rape this past season) because as I've expressed before (and I know you disagree), I think Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is ridiculously cheapened by giving Tywin a reason besides pride to hate Tyrion's birth.  As it is now, I can't believe George would go that route.  If it were to happen on the show, I would hope for that being a book v show difference, but I would probably accept that GRRM struck out bigtime on that one.  

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, JonSnow4President said:

Not genuine disbelief, but just kind of shellshocked (like after watching Sansa's rape this past season) because as I've expressed before (and I know you disagree), I think Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is ridiculously cheapened by giving Tywin a reason besides pride to hate Tyrion's birth.  As it is now, I can't believe George would go that route.  If it were to happen on the show, I would hope for that being a book v show difference, but I would probably accept that GRRM struck out bigtime on that one.  

Just keep in mind a couple of things -- IF it turns out that AJT is true (not sure I am going to say anything new, but it has been a while since I made some of these points) -- again, the points below are assuming that AJT is correct.

First, if an AJT reveal happens on the show, it likely will not be anywhere near as satisfying as how GRRM will do it. Before you judge, wait until GRRM writes it -- and even more important -- wait to see how it plays out for the rest of the series. If AJT is correct, it likely is correct because GRRM's endgame needs it to be correct. He needs Tyrion to be related to Dany and Jon and needs Tyrion to have the "blood of the dragon" to bond with a dragon and be a head of the dragon. Wait to see how GRRM weaves these concepts together. Maybe even after reading to the end, you still will conclude that GRRM made a mistake, but give him a full chance to play it out before making any final decisions.

Second, and a point I have tried to make many times, if AJT is true -- then AJT was decided way before GRRM ever wrote the passages that developed the T/T relationship to be what you consider to be "cheapened" by AJT. GRRM almost certainly decided this issue before he wrote GoT. If AJT is correct, then Tyrion as a Targ bastard likely will be central to how GRRM has envisioned the endgame. So your judgment puts GRRM in quite a bind. Either he never should have written such a compelling relationship between T&T (so that it could not later be "cheapened" by the reveal he knew is coming) or he completely re-constructs his ending, which likely would make hash out his entire concept for the series (keep in mind the GRRM has said he does not "lie" to his readers so it would be difficult to change his ending and still have all the "clues" he dropped continue to make sense). I don't think either of those choices is better than what GRRM did -- which is to write a compelling and sad relationship between T&T -- which later will be understood to have been something completely different (from Tywin's side) after the AJT reveal -- but keep in his original concept of Tyrion as Targ bastard.

[JonSnow4President]

28 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just keep in mind a couple of things -- IF it turns out that AJT is true (not sure I am going to say anything new, but it has been a while since I made some of these points) -- again, the points below are assuming that AJT is correct.

First, if an AJT reveal happens on the show, it likely will not be anywhere near as satisfying as how GRRM will do it. Before you judge, wait until GRRM writes it -- and even more important -- wait to see how it plays out for the rest of the series. If AJT is correct, it likely is correct because GRRM's endgame needs it to be correct. He needs Tyrion to be related to Dany and Jon and needs Tyrion to have the "blood of the dragon" to bond with a dragon and be a head of the dragon. Wait to see how GRRM weaves these concepts together. Maybe even after reading to the end, you still will conclude that GRRM made a mistake, but give him a full chance to play it out before making any final decisions.

Second, and a point I have tried to make many times, if AJT is true -- then AJT was decided way before GRRM ever wrote the passages that developed the T/T relationship to be what you consider to be "cheapened" by AJT. GRRM almost certainly decided this issue before he wrote GoT. If AJT is correct, then Tyrion as a Targ bastard likely will be central to how GRRM has envisioned the endgame. So your judgment puts GRRM in quite a bind. Either he never should have written such a compelling relationship between T&T (so that it could not later be "cheapened" by the reveal he knew is coming) or he completely re-constructs his ending, which likely would make hash out his entire concept for the series (keep in mind the GRRM has said he does not "lie" to his readers so it would be difficult to change his ending and still have all the "clues" he dropped continue to make sense). I don't think either of those choices is better than what GRRM did -- which is to write a compelling and sad relationship between T&T -- which later will be understood to have been something completely different (from Tywin's side) after the AJT reveal -- but keep in his original concept of Tyrion as Targ bastard.

GRRM has earned patience before final judgment (unlike D&D&C), and of course I know the candle of those 3 cannot compare to the sun of GRRM.  

As far as the second, I would say that as of now, there is no reason so that it has to be so for the ending based on what he has written now, so I don't buy that explanation (note the as of now).  I'll reserve final judgment once I have the final piece of the puzzle, but it would be a shocking deviation based on what I see as GRRM's purpose of the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic.  That's the type of thing that in my eyes needs a damn good explanation for me to accept it.

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just found this thread -- did not know it existed until today. Looking forward to this season and cautiously optimistic that confirmation of both RLJ and AJT will be provided this season, but I think confirmation of RLJ is almost certain based on the rumors about ToJ that seem to have been circulating. I just wonder if either of these theories is revealed on HBO how many doubters will still try to claim that the show series is not the book series and it still might not be true in the books.

By the way, SS, it might be helpful to add links to the prior versions of this thread to the OP.

did it

 

As to the AJT discussion.  Everyone sees it differently.  I think its a wonderful hidden gem in the asoiaf story.  I really dont see why its so awesome for Jon to be Rhaegars son but it's a drag for Tyrion to be Aerys's son.  if anything it throws Ned and Tywin into contrast again and clearly shows Ned as the better man, raising the son of someone he loved. Plus for me personally, I need a reason for Tywin to have treated Tyrion this way his whole life.  And  Tywin is still a giant dick, he doesnt get any more or less credit in my book due to AJT, but his motives would make much more sense and what's wrong with that?

 

 Anyway, as I have always thought, This story is about the 1. Targaryens, 2. Starks, 3. Lannisters    SO it makes perfect sense for bastard/trueborn Targaryens to come crawling out of the woodwork later in the series to join up with Dany, since the books are about her family, their fall from power then their rise back to grace through these 3 people.  That's just how I see it and it's a seriously awesome story, I mean much like TLOTR's or Star Wars or Arthurian Literature.  There is always a central family.

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

did it

 

As to the AJT discussion.  Everyone sees it differently.  I think its a wonderful hidden gem in the asoiaf story.  I really dont see why its so awesome for Jon to be Rhaegars son but it's a drag for Tyrion to be Aerys's son.  if anything it throws Ned and Tywin into contrast again and clearly shows Ned as the better man, raising the son of someone he loved.  Anyway, as I have always thought, This story is about the 1. Targaryens, 2. Starks, 3. Lannisters    SO it makes perfect sense for bastard/trueborn Targaryens to come crawling out of the woodwork later in the series to join up with Dany, since the books are about her family, their fall from power then their rise back to grace through these 3 people.  That's just how I see it and it's a seriously awesome story, I mean much like TLOTR's or Star Wars or Arthurian Literature.  There is always a central family.

Thanks for adding the links.

As to the story being about a central family -- but isn't that a trope and isn't GRRM the breaker of all tropes? (lol)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Thanks for adding the links.

As to the story being about a central family -- but isn't that a trope and isn't GRRM the breaker of all tropes? (lol)

lol idk about that.  but if RLJ and AJT are true, then  the 3 main characters will in fact all be targs, one full and 2 halves from the 2 other main families, as we have discussed it makes a very nice triangle in the story.

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

lol idk about that.  but if RLJ and AJT are true, then  the 3 main characters will in fact all be targs, one full and 2 halves from the 2 other main families, as we have discussed it makes a very nice triangle in the story.

Yes, of course I agree with you. I was just making a little sarcastic jibe at those who seem to believe that GRRM breaks trope -- when, in fact, I think it is the opposite. He really is just amazingly good at using tropes creatively and a bit unconventionally. But trope become tropes for a reason -- they work emotionally. Avoid all tropes and likely what is left is a boring and uninteresting story with no emotional appeal. I was giving a sort of "pre-rebuttal" in my own snarky way to those who want to make the "breaker-of-all-tropes" argument.

[JonSnow4President]

24 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Anyway, as I have always thought, This story is about the 1. Targaryens, 2. Starks, 3. Lannisters

*cough cough* A Time for Wolves *cough cough*

ETA:  As for the rest, I see Tywin's "traumatic" experience of seeing the Lannister's as laughing stocks under his father is enough reason for him to hate Tyrion (not as in I agree with it, but it's what drives his character) in the same way that I see Ned's traumatic experiences with dead children being enough to justify his actions with Jon, telling Cersei to flee, risking his friendship by insisting on protecting Daenerys, and sacrificing his honor to protect Sansa.  I guess it's because he already has that motivation that this theory just seems over the top.  IMO, it adds nothing to Tywin, takes away from his interaction with Tyrion, and even removes a fair bit of conflict for Tyrion.  

Unlike Jon, Tyrion hates his family.  As a child, he dreams of burning them alive.  Comparing the two and asking why one is different in the other is failing to see the fundamental differences in their situations.  

[Suzanna Stormborn]

17 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

*cough cough* A Time for Wolves *cough cough*

ETA:  As for the rest, I see Tywin's "traumatic" experience of seeing the Lannister's as laughing stocks under his father is enough reason for him to hate Tyrion (not as in I agree with it, but it's what drives his character) in the same way that I see Ned's traumatic experiences with dead children being enough to justify his actions with Jon, telling Cersei to flee, risking his friendship by insisting on protecting Daenerys, and sacrificing his honor to protect Sansa.  I guess it's because he already has that motivation that this theory just seems over the top.  IMO, it adds nothing to Tywin, takes away from his interaction with Tyrion, and even removes a fair bit of conflict for Tyrion.  

Unlike Jon, Tyrion hates his family.  As a child, he dreams of burning them alive.  Comparing the two and asking why one is different in the other is failing to see the fundamental differences in their situations.  

of course i see there are differences, but you cannot fail to see the similarities as well in these 2 situations.

 

Like I said we all see it differently, and as we have discussed ad nauseum on the AJT threads.  If it was just about the T&T dynamic that would be one thing, but we also have to take into account the literary point of an affair between Aerys in Joanna, and the literary point of having Tyrion obsessed (more than anyone else including Dany) with dragons, and his dreaming about them. and realistically there is no point to an affair between them without an outcome. Practically all other cases of affairs lead to children.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Not genuine disbelief, but just kind of shellshocked (like after watching Sansa's rape this past season) because as I've expressed before (and I know you disagree), I think Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is ridiculously cheapened by giving Tywin a reason besides pride to hate Tyrion's birth.  As it is now, I can't believe George would go that route.  If it were to happen on the show, I would hope for that being a book v show difference, but I would probably accept that GRRM struck out bigtime on that one.  

I'm sad to say I now put Tyrion as a secret Targ at 50/50 if not higher, I agree it ruins the dynamic w/his father, but I think there is a very good chance he's going to go that route much as I dislike it.  Not sure the show would make that significant of a change, if he's a secret Targ in GOT odds are strong that he is in teh books also.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sad to say I now put Tyrion as a secret Targ at 50/50 if not higher, I agree it ruins the dynamic w/his father, but I think there is a very good chance he's going to go that route much as I dislike it.  Not sure the show would make that significant of a change, if he's a secret Targ in GOT odds are strong that he is in teh books also.

well yes, the show has given much more of an argument for AJT in the form of, 'someone has to fly these other 2 dragons from Meereen to Westeros'.  Dany is on Drogon and Rhaegal and Viserion aren't going anywhere without riders.  So, on the show, what other main characters are in Meereen who could possibly fit the bill?

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sad to say I now put Tyrion as a secret Targ at 50/50 if not higher, I agree it ruins the dynamic w/his father, but I think there is a very good chance he's going to go that route much as I dislike it.  Not sure the show would make that significant of a change, if he's a secret Targ in GOT odds are strong that he is in teh books also.

I agree that if Tyrion is a Targ bastard on the show he is a Targ bastard in the books. If Tyrion is the son of Aerys, Tyrion will not be the son of Aerys merely for "shock" value or "soap opera" drama. As I have been saying over and over and over again recently, if Tryion is a Targ bastard  then he is a Targ bastard because the endgame requires Tyrion to be a Targ bastard. D&D are not going to make fundamental changes to the basic outline of the endgame. Tyrion's role in the endgame was decided by GRRM over 20 years ago before he sat down to write GoT. So making Tyrion a Targ bastard on the show if he is not one in the books likely would cause too big a deviation from the endgame outlined by GRRM. Moreover, if AJT is true in the books, it will need to be true on the TV show so that the endgame can play out in the same basic manner.

Yes, D&D are changing all sorts of details. But the HBO show is sort of like a re-telling of Cinderella (not a re-imagining). Cinderella always loses the glass slipper and the Prince always finds that she fits the slipper and takes her away. All sorts of other details can change, but the basic gist of the story remains the same if it is intended to be basically the same story. D&D have said they are telling basically the same story with essentially the same ending. So if there is an AJT reveal on the TV show, it really should be close to definitive proof of the same outcome will happen in the books.