The Fate of Craster's Sons

[DarkSister1001]

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“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

ASoS, Chapter 33, Sam

There are a few forms in which the sons can return. The show implies that the sons of Craster are taken and turned into Others. It would be incredibly tedious to build an army one babe at a time. I would like to put forth a different take on their return…in the form of weapons.

Modesty Lannister has a well-researched analysis of steel and Valyrian steel. She has an excellent theory that Valyrians were the blood sacrifice, dragonbone was the material Clarification here from Ran regarding dragonbone) and that the flames of the dragons were the fire needed to forge new Valyrian Steel. I agree. The lack of new Valyrian Steel could be due to the decline in the blood of Old Valyrian and the lack of dragons. Building on that I think some strong connections can be made that will give some answers about the Others, their weapons, and the fate of Craster’s sons.

A few quotes to illuminate the theory on to forging VS:
 

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On the table between them, Lord Mormont laid a large sword in a black metal scabbard banded with silver. <snip>

“The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade now…you’d need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade.”

GOT, Chapter 60, Jon

“Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like non the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel.”

GOT, Chapter 72, Dany

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he’d found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper…But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

“You are not wrong,” Jon said. “I do not know. And if the gods are good, I never will.”

“The gods are seldom good, Jon Snow.” Tormund nodded toward the sky.

ADwD, Chapter 58, Jon

 

And a little introduction of the Others from The World of Ice and Fire:
 

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Archmaester Fomas’s Lies of the Ancients-though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands-does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night’s Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion. <snip>

Yet there are other tales-harder to credit and yet more central to the old histories-about creatures known as the Others. According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them as they sought to extinguish all light and warmth.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Long Night

 

So the hottest flame comes from the mouth of a dragon and the coldest temperatures are felt when the Others and their thralls are about. If fire keeps away wights and the presence of the Others can snuff out a flame than fire can’t possibly be used to forge their weapons and armor. They would harness their element, water; specifically their frozen element, ice.

Valyrian Steel swords are known on sight due to their exceptional features, even by those that have yet to personally see one. The blades are thin and extremely sharp. They can cut through bronze, flesh, bone, muscle, leather and fur easily. VS is light in weight and very dark gray in color. The steel created only by Valyrians is consistently described as “smoky” the result of fire. VS is marked by ripples in the metal indicative of the unique forging process. Utilizing spells in that process is well known though all other aspects are secret and closely guarded by the Qohorian, the last of the smiths capable of reworking the metal. There are enough clues to confidently surmise that blood magic was necessary.
 

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When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp.

ACoK, Chapter 51, Jon

Bronze was no match for Valyrian steel. The blow sheared right through the Thenn’s helm and deep into his skull, and he went crashing back down where he’d come from.

ASoS, Chapter 55, Jon

In answer, Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam’s hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so the ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. “Valyrian steel,” he said, “spell-forged and razor sharp, nigh on indestructible.”

AFfC, Chapter 5, Samwell & ADwD Chapter 7, Jon

The burning mountains of the Fourteen Flames were rich with ore, and the Valyrian’s hungered for it: copper and tin for the bronze of their weapons and monuments; later iron for the steel of their legendary blades; and always gold and silver to pay for it all. <snip>

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells-or at least arts we do not know-to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know the magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge.

The World of Ice and Fire, Valyria’s Children

 

As much as I’d like to call their metal Ice Steel, I’ve opted for Winter Steel to avoid any confusion between the weapons of the Others and Ice, the ancestral sword of the Starks. There are only a few times we are shown the Others and given a description of their weaponry and armor. Like Valyrian Steel, Winter Steel is ultra-thin, razor sharp and rippled. A WS blade can shatter a typical steel sword and slice through ringmail, leather, wool and flesh. The blades are described as pale with a blue shimmer. Their armor is camouflage; changing with their environment.
 

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The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

AGoT, Prologue

 

The only other irregular weapon is Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne; wielded by the Sword in the Morning. Oddly, it is described just like WS. Not necessarily vital to this topic, but something to keep in mind.
 

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The Daynes of Starfall are one are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seem to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

The World of Ice and Fire, Sword in the Morning

 

As the appearance of VS invokes the imagery of fire and smoke, the WS invokes the imagery of ice, mist, frost, etc. I believe the mirroring is much deeper than fire vs. ice. I believe information on the Valyrians could be transposed from fire to ice in order to fill in blanks on the Others.

Much like the VS swords, those with the blood of Old Valyria have distinct characteristics. Violet eyes, like smoke, are the most telling (purple haze anyone?). On the other hand the Others all have bright blue eyes, like ice.
 

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The great beauty of the Valyrians-with their hair of palest silver or gold and eyes in shades of purple not found amongst any other peoples in the world-is well-known, and often held up as proof that the Valyrians are not entirely of the same blood as other men.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Rise of Valyria

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

AGoT, Prologue

 

When Will was in the company of the Others (without knowing it) he felt watched and that his presence was unwanted. Similarly, when Arya found her way to the dungeons among the dragon skulls in KL she had almost the exact same feeling.
 

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All day, Will had felt as though something was watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too.

AGoT, Prologue

“It’s dead,” she said aloud. “It’s just a skull, it can’t hurt me.” Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh. Arya whirled, felt leather catch and tear as a huge fang nipped at her jerkin, and then she was running. Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not even slow.

AGoT, Chapter 32, Arya

 

There are also cases of Other and Valyrian items being frequently anthropomorphized in peculiar ways.
 

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“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors are not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was the color I set to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lord of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but” <snip>

If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword only had two. Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lion’s paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels.

“Magnificent.” Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion’s, the blade felt alive. “I have never felt better balance.”

ASoS, Chapter 32, Tyrion

King Robert never wore it, had likely forgotten he owned it. Yet the Valyrian steel was deadly sharp…sharp enough to slice through skin, flesh, and muscle in one quick stroke. <snip>

Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul.

ASoS, Chapter 60, Tyrion

He was better than Pyg, but he had only a short throwing spear, and she had a Valyrian steel blade. Oathkeeper was alive in her hands. She had never been so quick. The blade became a grey blur. He wounded her in her shoulder as she came at him, but she slashed off his ear and half his cheek, hacked the head off his spear, and put a foot of rippled steel into his belly through the links of the chain mail byrnie he was wearing.

AFfC, Chapter 20, Brienne

“The sword is quick,” Tarly snapped. “That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She’s a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it.”

AFfC, Chapter 25, Brienne

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

AGoT, Prologue

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.”

ASoS, Chapter 18, Sam

 

As the “blood of the dragon”, Targaryens can handle temperatures hotter than most, in fact, Dany prefers extreme heat, though Targaryen’s are not immune to fire. The Valyrians were strong in magic and spoke High Valyrian, the language originating from the ancient Valyrian Freehold. Some Targaryens and have a history of prophetic dreams. Dany brought forth the first dragons in 150 years with blood magic.

Being from the Land of Always Winter, the Others can obviously stand extreme cold. They either come when it gets cold or it gets cold when they come. Obviously the Others are strong in magic as they are able to reanimate the dead; a style of blood magic. I think it’s also a safe assumption that the Others speak the True Tongue, or at least a version of it. That language is still spoken by the CotF, another ancient race.
 

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The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake and the words were mocking.

AGoT, Prologue

Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon the Builder learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

A World of Ice and Fire, Ancient History

 

So we have two races/species that speak ancient languages, have magical abilities, have remarkable colored eyes that match their elements, and have distinctive weapons.

Others and dragons are both referred to as shadows several times.
 

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Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. <snip>

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The pattern ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

AGoT, Prologue

“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

ACoK, Chapter 23, Jon

“Tormund,” Jon said as they watched four old women pull a cartfull of children toward the gate, “tell me of our foe. I would know all there is it to know of the Others.”

The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. “They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”

“Did they trouble you on your way south?”

“They never came in force, if that’s your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though…snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold…some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ‘Less they find you first.” <snip>

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up…how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth…air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest…you do not know, you cannot know…can your sword cut cold?”

ADwD, Chapter 58, Jon

“Dragon’s egg, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio.

AGoT, Chapter 11, Dany

They liked the fire, he sensed. He’d thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him.

AGoT, Chapter 13, Tyrion

With each step she took, the shadows moved against the walls, as if they were turning to watch her pass. “Dragons,” she whispered.

AGoT, Chapter 50, Arya

“Dragons and darker things,” said Leo. “The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers awaken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes.”

ADwD, Prologue

“It were the black one,” the man said, in a Ghiscari growl, “the winged shadow. He come down from the sky and…and…”

ADwD, Chapter 2, Dany

Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

ADwD, Chapter 31, Mel

Dany followed his eyes, and there the shadow flew, with wings spread wide. The dragon was a mile off, and yet the scout stood frozen until his stallion began to wicker in fear.

ADwD, Chapter 71, Dany

 

Furthermore, Targaryens and the Others are both described as being gods (and sometimes above gods). It’s understandable considering their ethereal appearance, inhuman weapons and magical abilities.

I think it is noteworthy that the only families that openly practice incest are Craster and Targaryens; descendants of the First Men and Old Valyria respectively. Targaryens inter-wed to keep their bloodlines pure. Craster’s offspring are of strong First Men blood (possibly pure) though I am not yet sure if that was the intention or just the serendipitous end result of a sicko.
 

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We could marry him to Myrcella, once we’ve sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannistesr are above their lows, like gods and Targaryens.

ASoS, Chapter 21, Jaime

Dragon names, and more; in old Valyria before the Doom, Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhaegar had been gods.

ASoS, Dany, Chapter 57

Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world.

ASoS, Chapter 71, Dany

Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods.

AFfC, Chapter 24, Cersei

Targaryens were rightly regarded as being closer to gods than the common run of men.

The Princess and the Queen

On Dragonstone, where the Targaryens had long ruled, the common folk had seen their beautiful, foreign rulers almost as gods.

The World of Ice and Fire, Aegon II

The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of Old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

ACoK, Chapter 33, Cat

Some scholars have suggested that the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, believing themselves to be more powerful than any god or goddess.

The World of Ice and Fire, Norvos

So long as he gives us a hot meal and a chance to dry our clothes, I’ll be happy. Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. “And worse,” the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. “There’s a cold smell to that one, there is.” <snip>

Sam looked dubious. “Dolorus Edd says Craster’s a terrible savage. He marries his daughters and obeys no laws but those he makes himself. And Dywen told Grenn he’s got black blood in his veins. His mother was a wilding woman who lay with a ranger, so he’s a bas…” Suddenly he realized what he was about to say.

ACoK, Chapter 23, Jon

“I fed you what I could, but you crows are always hungry. I’m a godly man, else I would have chased you off.” <snip>

Craster raised up his daughters to be his wives, but there were neither men nor boys to be seen about his compound. Gilly had told Jon that Craster gave his sons to the gods. <snip>

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster’s, neither wights nor Other. Nor would there be, Craster said. “A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more’n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. <snip>

That won’t help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods.” <snip>

Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she’d told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods. <snip>

You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that’s why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to wives. <snip>

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please ser crow. He’s just a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”<snip>

ASoS, Chapter 33, Sam

The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold’s Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed).

The World of Ice and Fire, The Wildlings

 

We know that VS requires spells and dragon fire and almost certainly blood sacrifice. Considering the northmen are not strangers to blood sacrifice and the similarities between VS and WS it can be reasonably deduced that the Others use blood sacrifice in the forging of their weapons and armor.
 

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Yet the First Men were less learned than we are now, and credited things that their descendants today do not; consider Maester Yorrick’s Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from Its Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick’s predecessors at White Harbor.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Dawn Age

The men of the North are descendants of the First Men, their blood only slowly mingling with that of the Andals who overwhelmed the kingdoms to the south. The original language-known as the Old Tongue-has come to be spoken only by the wildlings beyond the Wall, and many other aspects of their culture have faded away (such as the grislier of their worship, when criminals and traitors were killed and their bodies and entrails hung from the branches of weirwoods.)

The World of Ice and Fire, The North

"Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove the slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.” <snip>

“I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees.”

“There’s much and more you southrons do not know about the north,” Ser Bartimus replied.

ADwD, Chapter 29, Davos

 

 

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Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges in Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

GOT, Chapter 27, Ned

 

 

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Even more mysterious than Norvos and Lorath is their sinister sister, the Free City of Qohor, easternmost of all the daughters of Valyria. <snip>

In folklore, even as far as Westeros, Qohor is sometimes known as the City of Sorcerers, for it is widely believed that the dark arts are practiced here even to this day. Divination, bloodmagic, and necromancy are whispered of, though such reports can seldom be proved. One truth remains undisputed, however: The dark god of Qohor, the deity known as the Black Goat, demands daily blood sacrifice. Calves, bullocks and horses are the animals most often brought to the Black Goat’s altars, but on holy days condemned criminals go beneath the knives of his cowled priests, and in times of danger and crisis it is written that the high nobles of the city offer up their own children to placate the god, that he might defend the city. <snip>

Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealousy the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including to the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce steel to equal that of the Freehold.

The World of Ice and Fire, Qohor

 

 

With so many mirrored characteristics it is reasonable to believe that Craster’s sons were used in forging process to create weapons and armor for the Others for their impending war. Why else take the babies?

To turn them into other Others - I don’t think so. I know the show depicts this but I think that show took some creative liberties as they do where magic is concerned. Some things are too tricky to take from the pages of a book to the screen and I believe the fate of the sons was one of those things. And why would they? All the animals and people that are killed in proximity to the Others becomes their thralls. Their army is growing rapidly. It does not seem necessary to take newborns to make them into Others when it is so easily done another way. Also, so far, we have not seen any example of accelerated growth rate. So perhaps the first son that was taken is now a man grown, but the ones taken more recently would only be babes and useless in battle. Craster’s has 19 daughter wives; they could not possibly birth enough sons in a normal lifetime to staff an army and we have had zero indication that he is continuing anyone else’s work.

Food - There’s no way to know for sure as of yet, but it would seem unlikely. We don’t have any scenes where the Others consume anything. Craster’s old wife knows the son’s will return, but I don’t think it is as literal as she says.

But aren’t they taking sheep from Craster? Yes. If VS can be reworked then likely WS can too. It would still need a blood sacrifice as does VS and any blood seems to work for reworking it. Also, they may not know what offering Craster has for them until they arrive. They could be why they are coming more frequently; they need the sons and aren’t getting them anymore. We also don’t know all that they are up to in the Land of Always Winter. Another situation that involved sacrificing sheep and a war was Nettles taming Sheepsteeler in the Dance of the Dragons. So I do not believe that the taking of the sheep indicates anything yet.

The most logical explanation for the sacrificing of Craster’s son is a blood sacrifice. And the most likely reason to spill the blood of the First Men by a group such as the Others would be for the forging of weapons and armor for the upcoming war, the way the Valyrians did to make their distinctive weapons.

ETA: Crossed off dragonbone....11 months later, uncrossed Dragonbone and added link to explanation.  Thanks @ModestyLannister!

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well, as we know that dragonbone is not involved in VS, I'm going to have to disagree immediately.

I think the babies are very simple, its a blood sacrifice for the power to wake the dead. "Only death can pay for life"

MMD sacrificed Danys baby to raise Drogo, but he was catatonic, if the WW's combine this magic with warging or something similar then you have wights.

Edit: I would also like to point out that what the show did is impossible, there is no way a baby could survive being in the presence of a WW for long, let alone for like 500 miles to the lands of always winter.

[DarkSister1001]

Well, as we know that dragonbone is not involved in VS, I'm going to have to disagree immediately.

I think the babies are very simple, its a blood sacrifice for the power to wake the dead. "Only death can pay for life"

MMD sacrificed Danys baby to raise Drogo, but he was catatonic, if the WW's combine this magic with warging or something similar then you have wights.

Edit: I would also like to point out that what the show did is impossible, there is no way a baby could survive being in the presence of a WW for long, let alone for like 500 miles to the lands of always winter.

I haven't seen anything to discredit the use of dragonbone in VS.

ETA: I think Weirwood branches are the dragonbone equivalent in the WS recipe, but I simply didn't have enough to back that up.

[RumHam]

I haven't seen anything to discredit the use of dragonbone in VS.

In Valyria did they work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?

No.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193/

[aryagonnakill#2]

For some reason I cannot copy and paste on the forum, but if you go to the Dragonsteal is not Valyrian steal thread on page 7 among many other times you can see the ssm where George is asked directly whether dragonbone is used to make VS and he says no.

Also as to what you just edited in. Someone literally just mentioned that in another thread about the weirwood arrows Brandon was going to try and use to kill Aegons dragons, accept they compared weirwood to dragonglass instead of dragonbone.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I don't know how we can say we know dragonbone is not used in forging VS. No one knows how to forge VS.

"Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of wine and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire."

A lot of similarities to VS, and of course steel is iron and carbon, which both would be present in dragon bone and would explain the dark smoke color of VS.

As to OP, I don't really buy into it. I always figured that they were turned into WW's and fostered by the female WW who laid with the NK, nothing to support this tho. Just the WW's resurrect life the dead (after killing them most of the time) while the red god sacrifices, I don't know why you would need a child sacrifice, the blood of the first men is in most of the wildlings and they could be captured and sacrificed easily I would suppose. Just supposed the Craster kids were more special than the regular wights. I have no idea how they forge their weapons and armor, just figured it was magic.

[DarkSister1001]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193/

Well damn. But since the my theory doesn't rest solely on the use of dragonbone, that's only actually mentioned once and I intentionally kept it's counterpart out, I think it still has merit.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193/

Never saw that, take back everything I said

[DarkSister1001]

DP

[DarkSister1001]

I don't know how we can say we know dragonbone is not used in forging VS. No one knows how to forge VS.

"Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of wine and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire."

A lot of similarities to VS, and of course steel is iron and carbon, which both would be present in dragon bone and would explain the dark smoke color of VS.

As to OP, I don't really buy into it. I always figured that they were turned into WW's and fostered by the female WW who laid with the NK, nothing to support this tho. Just the WW's resurrect life the dead (after killing them most of the time) while the red god sacrifices, I don't know why you would need a child sacrifice, the blood of the first men is in most of the wildlings and they could be captured and sacrificed easily I would suppose. Just supposed the Craster kids were more special than the regular wights. I have no idea how they forge their weapons and armor, just figured it was magic.

We don't have any cases of increased rate of growth so some of them would still be babes and toddlers. And building an army that way seems nonsensical. Why take the babies why they can just raise the dead? The infants are needed for something specific. Perhaps it is as aryagonnakill#2 pointed out, just the magic needed to raise the dead. But what Craster's wife says makes me think that they will return in some form, not just that their blood was spilled for the purpose of someone else returning.

[Ser Leftwich]

At the root, seems plausible enough: blood + fire/dragon magic + steel = magic swords == ice magic + something + blood = magic weapons.

Also, simple enough.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Your overall theory imo has some merit, but I prefer my own that I put in my original post. The WW's weapons should be able to withstand VS if they in fact have human sacrifices inside them.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

We don't have any cases of increased rate of growth so some of them would still be babes and toddlers. And building an army that way seems nonsensical. Why take the babies why they can just raise the dead? The infants are needed for something specific. Perhaps it is as aryagonnakill#2 pointed out, just the magic needed to raise the dead. But what Craster's wife says makes me think that they will return in some form, not just that their blood was spilled for the purpose of someone else returning.

I wasn't saying Craster's kids were the army. The army is of wights, mostly dead willings. Crasters kids are raised and fostered into a vanguard of some sort. I got nothing backing it up. I'm just saying Craster's boys are special and are not mindless wights.

[Mithras]

I loved the OP.

With so many mirrored characteristics it is reasonable to believe that Craster’s sons were used in forging process to create weapons and armor for the Others for their impending war. Why else take the babies?

To turn them into other Others - I don’t think so. I know the show depicts this but I think that show took some creative liberties as they do where magic is concerned. Some things are too tricky to take from the pages of a book to the screen and I believe the fate of the sons was one of those things.

I agree that the babies are butchered and their blood is used in "icebinding" to create Others. That is the icy counterpart of shadowbinding with blood and life fire. The Others are ice made flesh. Craster has been lying to his wives to not draw their wrath. In fact, he was not exactly lying. The boys somehow turn into the Others but he kept the gruesome details to himself.

Of course, the TV show could not present the butchering of babies. So, they invented the icy touch.

[Mithras]

My latest tinfoil theory is that the Amethyst Empress gave birth to the son of the Bloodstone Emperor and similar to the legend of Nissa Nissa, all of her life-fire went into that special boy. That left the Amethyst Empress as an extremely cold entity hungry for blood and life fire. She was exiled to the LoAW and currently we know her as the Great Other. That special boy or the Bloodstone Emperor might have turned into the current Rhlorr.

I also think that the Amethyst Empress was the woman who wooed the Night's King.

[DarkSister1001]

Your overall theory imo has some merit, but I prefer my own that I put in my original post. The WW's weapons should be able to withstand VS if they in fact have human sacrifices inside them.

I have to assume that when they meet in battle it comes down to the pure elements themselves. Fire would simply melt ice.

[DarkSister1001]

I wasn't saying Craster's kids were the army. The army is of wights, mostly dead willings. Crasters kids are raised and fostered into a vanguard of some sort. I got nothing backing it up. I'm just saying Craster's boys are special and are not mindless wights.

I know what you mean, becoming Others, not wights. But without some sort of increased growth rate I don't see how they could be actually part of the army. And since they can raise the dead and are constantly growing their army I don't see as how a few babies over the years would mean anything to an army with those capabilities.

[DarkSister1001]

I loved the OP.

I agree that the babies are butchered and their blood is used in "icebinding" to create Others. That is the icy counterpart of shadowbinding with blood and life fire. The Others are ice made flesh. Craster has been lying to his wives to not draw their wrath. In fact, he was not exactly lying. The boys somehow turn into the Others but he kept the gruesome details to himself.

Of course, the TV show could not present the butchering of babies. So, they invented the icy touch.

Thanks!

As far as the Amethyst Empress & Bloodstone Emperor...I have intentionally steered clear of that. Not sure my brain can handle much more ASoIaF backstory without deleting other important things these days. lol

[aryagonnakill#2]

While I don't think the babies are turned into WW's either, it is worth noting that according to GRRM, Crastor was not the only person sacrificing children to the others so that does leave it as an option in terms of the #'s. Also, leaving aside my earlier point that a baby would not survive long in the open regardless of whether or not they were wrapped up, especially if they were around a WW that is absolutely freezing, child mortality in the north would be terrible, we are told as much when we are told why wildlings don't get names until they are 2. So Craster has what 20 wives? All of whom - 1 who obviously couldn't have originally been a daughter so lets call her a sister were his daughters that lived to adulthood. That means he would have originally had like 40 daughters and half would have died, and as many sons, so thats 40 babies he gave the WW's. And actually more male babies are born than female.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, as we know that dragonbone is not involved in VS, I'm going to have to disagree immediately.

I think the babies are very simple, its a blood sacrifice for the power to wake the dead. "Only death can pay for life"

MMD sacrificed Danys baby to raise Drogo, but he was catatonic, if the WW's combine this magic with warging or something similar then you have wights.

Edit: I would also like to point out that what the show did is impossible, there is no way a baby could survive being in the presence of a WW for long, let alone for like 500 miles to the lands of always winter.

I'm imagining the Other stopping to change diapers and coo him to sleep. Instead of milk in the bottle it woulda been milkshakes! Ok, that was bad. Sorry. Seriously, can you imagine being stuck in a car, I mean on a horse with a baby for 500 miles?