Heresy 169

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 169, this week’s edition of the popular thread which tries to take a thoughtful, often sideways and sometimes irreverent look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to the game, pray don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have discussed here over the years since the thread began way back in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree with each other most of the time, but instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the script has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s father, far less a return of the king scenario for the conclusion of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially 1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

And, topically, remember the forum rules on not discussing the mummers’ version of the story outside of the sub-forum provided elsewhere on the site. Traditionally we’ve been a bit laid back about this, restricting discussion only to those matters of unequivocal relevance to Heresy, such as the Craster’s sons business. Don’t abuse this and we may still be able to slip under the radar. Try turning this into a general discussion of the show and the wrath of the Mods will descend, so let’s try to keep it business as usual

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Matthew.]

In response to the previous thread, when it comes to defeating the ice magic at its source, or being able to slay wights, I don't think humanity has the luxury of this being an "either/or" choice.

Much as the NW needed to be able to resist Mance for a time before Stannis was able to show up and defeat him, if the wight horde breaches the Wall, humanity will need to be able to put up a meaningful fight in the interim, before the magic animating the wights is (presumably) stopped. Stopping the magic is meaningless if, by the time that happens, Westeros is just a land of corpses.

[Black Crow]

All going to come to a final climactic battle at Winterfell according to above, and while heavy casualties are to be expected I reckon that its going to be won not by one side killing or destroying more of the other, but rather by something more up close and personal and not improbably being settled down below Winterfell rather than in the snow outside it.

[Sly Wren]

In response to the previous thread, when it comes to defeating the ice magic at its source, or being able to slay wights, I don't think humanity has the luxury of this being an "either/or" choice.

Much as the NW needed to be able to resist Mance for a time before Stannis was able to show up and defeat him, if the wight horde breaches the Wall, humanity will need to be able to put up a meaningful fight in the interim, before the magic animating the wights is (presumably) stopped. Stopping the magic is meaningless if, by the time that happens, Westeros is just a land of corpses.

And if the humans are fighting the wights any way they can, not noticing whatever has to happen to break the source of the wights, I can see Dany and any other solution possibly just adding to the confusion. "Wildfire works, so everyone follow and pledge allegiance to the wildfire holders," etc. Same with the dragons. Sets up, even if very quickly and on a short term, the same ridiculous in-fighting the novels show over the throne. ETA: thus, the short-term survival techniques for dealing with the wights could make the situation even worse--or at least create additional problems.

And, if the wights are broken behind the scenes--via Children, taking out Heart of Winter, just sets up the survivors for the same round of folklore and incomplete stories we've been dealing with all along. Pretty much ensures that if this ever happens again, the humans then would be as ill-prepared as these ones are now.

[Black Crow]

Quite possible, although its worth noting from the synopsis above that although Danaerys appears to be sitting on her throne unleashing the dragons doesn't appear to be the answer. It appears to require Starks and Lannisters, and at least one maester and greenseer all working together.

[Sly Wren]

True--I was reading the blurb's phrase "must" as Dany knowing what she needs to get people to do, not what she actually manages to get them to do. Still, the dragons might help people focus. Or focus too much--can see future songs about the end of the ice-mess all about how the dragons saved everyone--no or little mention of what happened behind the scenes.

[Matthew.]

And if the humans are fighting the wights any way they can, not noticing whatever has to happen to break the source of the wights, I can see Dany and any other solution possibly just adding to the confusion. "Wildfire works, so everyone follow and pledge allegiance to the wildfire holders," etc. Same with the dragons. Sets up, even if very quickly and on a short term, the same ridiculous in-fighting the novels show over the throne. ETA: thus, the short-term survival techniques for dealing with the wights could make the situation even worse--or at least create additional problems.

I heavily suspect that at least one person's attempts to combat the Others is going to go horribly awry - Melisandre's. I think she's going to fulfill Dany's HotU vision of a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" by sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to quicken a dragon egg; there's really nobody left at the Wall to keep her from doing what she wants.

[wolfmaid7]

In response to the previous thread, when it comes to defeating the ice magic at its source, or being able to slay wights, I don't think humanity has the luxury of this being an "either/or" choice.

Much as the NW needed to be able to resist Mance for a time before Stannis was able to show up and defeat him, if the wight horde breaches the Wall, humanity will need to be able to put up a meaningful fight in the interim, before the magic animating the wights is (presumably) stopped. Stopping the magic is meaningless if, by the time that happens, Westeros is just a land of corpses.

This is true humanity can't just lay back when wights are at the door,but i will add that i don't think the battle on top will have any idea of the battle below the scene.I am actually anticipating in the mele when humanity is on the brink that the wights will just stop fighting and walk away without the fighters ever knowing why.So in the absence of answers we will get stories like we have now i.e "the army of the dead fled back to the LOAW." Which we know given the wights lack of fear and not "running' ever this is an embelishment of something no one could explain because they have no clue that another battle was taking place.

All going to come to a final climactic battle at Winterfell according to above, and while heavy casualties are to be expected I reckon that its going to be won not by one side killing or destroying more of the other, but rather by something more up close and personal and not improbably being settled down below Winterfell rather than in the snow outside it.

More or less...This!

And if the humans are fighting the wights any way they can, not noticing whatever has to happen to break the source of the wights, I can see Dany and any other solution possibly just adding to the confusion. "Wildfire works, so everyone follow and pledge allegiance to the wildfire holders," etc. Same with the dragons. Sets up, even if very quickly and on a short term, the same ridiculous in-fighting the novels show over the throne. ETA: thus, the short-term survival techniques for dealing with the wights could make the situation even worse--or at least create additional problems.

And, if the wights are broken behind the scenes--via Children, taking out Heart of Winter, just sets up the survivors for the same round of folklore and incomplete stories we've been dealing with all along. Pretty much ensures that if this ever happens again, the humans then would be as ill-prepared as these ones are now.

Yeah on the first para i hink Dany is going to get some bad advice be it in person or via dreams telling her she has to use Dragons on the army of the dead.The trump card missing in the synopsis of course is the Red Lot.Mel,Benerro and Morroqo are things that shouldn't be ignored and if they jump in the frey rallying behind Dany or Stannis this could end up really bad if it goes to far.A lot of people will die.

I'm on the other end when it comes to if the heart of winter and or Sumer needs to be destroyed.I don't think they should because they are fundamental in how things run and they are literally hearts or should i say the heart of those who stand over winter and summer.So their needs to be a changing of the guards but to the right people.A heart that is not easily corrupted eventhough its broken and despite that brokeness will do what needs to be done not for glory,fame,power but because it needs to be done.

I heavily suspect that at least one person's attempts to combat the Others is going to go horribly awry - Melisandre's. I think she's going to fulfill Dany's HotU vision of a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" by sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to quicken a dragon egg; there's really nobody left at the Wall to keep her from doing what she wants.

Hell yeah to that,that woman be cray cray.

[Sly Wren]

I'm on the other end when it comes to if the heart of winter and or Sumer needs to be destroyed.I don't think they should because they are fundamental in how things run and they are literally hearts or should i say the heart of those who stand over winter and summer.So their needs to be a changing of the guards but to the right people.A heart that is not easily corrupted eventhough its broken and despite that brokeness will do what needs to be done not for glory,fame,power but because it needs to be done.

You've got a point. Plus, thinking on this, I have no idea how you could destroy magic if all the stuff about the Children is right and they actually derive their power from the earth, etc. And as you point out, the weirwoods. Same with blood magic. Magic seems to wax and wane, but in Martin's world, it's in the earth and in life.

Which makes figuring out how to get the Children to stop their ice-horror will not include a cheap easy "killing of Winter"--if magic is tied to life as we know it in Martin-ville, how can Bran and Co. get around the Children's understanding to end the ice?

Plus, seems to make it inevitable that this will happen again. I was thinking "kill all the Children" would be bittersweet in that it would end Walkers and wights but cut off knowledge. Now thinking it would be bittersweet because it not only would do all of that, but would be no guarantee of someone else figuring out how to corrupt (to steal your word) magics and do something else just as horrible. So, killing the Children may not be the answer--and it won't be a permanent answer even if they are killed.

These predictions just keep getting cheerier and cheerier.

ETA: Fully agree with your "war stops and no one knows why" scenario--will happen so far behind the scenes that it won't get understood, no matter how well the North remembers. Yet another prediction of joy.

[Sly Wren]

I heavily suspect that at least one person's attempts to combat the Others is going to go horribly awry - Melisandre's. I think she's going to fulfill Dany's HotU vision of a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" by sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to quicken a dragon egg; there's really nobody left at the Wall to keep her from doing what she wants.

Yes--Mel seems to be setting herself up for a big gesture that is bound to go wrong. If she involves Shireen (I really hope i'm wrong, but it seems almost inevitable at this point), that will undo her. She does this and it doesn't work, her power base falls, and that could severely undermine Stannis and his ability to unify the North. Enter the need for Dany and her attention-getting dragons (or just Drogon).

[wolfmaid7]

You've got a point. Plus, thinking on this, I have no idea how you could destroy magic if all the stuff about the Children is right and they actually derive their power from the earth, etc. And as you point out, the weirwoods. Same with blood magic. Magic seems to wax and wane, but in Martin's world, it's in the earth and in life.

Which makes figuring out how to get the Children to stop their ice-horror will not include a cheap easy "killing of Winter"--if magic is tied to life as we know it in Martin-ville, how can Bran and Co. get around the Children's understanding to end the ice?

Plus, seems to make it inevitable that this will happen again. I was thinking "kill all the Children" would be bittersweet in that it would end Walkers and wights but cut off knowledge. Now thinking it would be bittersweet because it not only would do all of that, but would be no guarantee of someone else figuring out how to corrupt (to steal your word) magics and do something else just as horrible. So, killing the Children may not be the answer--and it won't be a permanent answer even if they are killed.

These predictions just keep getting cheerier and cheerier.

ETA: Fully agree with your "war stops and no one knows why" scenario--will happen so far behind the scenes that it won't get understood, no matter how well the North remembers. Yet another prediction of joy.

I'm not on the COTF being the wws creators bandwagon but its close enough in that no matter if the Children are the brains or the Greenseers are the brains the problem AND the solution from where i sit is the Greenseers.It is interesting to see who was in the synopsis and is still in the story,and who wasn't in the synopsis and are now in the story.The greenseers have remained in the story from begining to end and from the synopsis they seem to play a crucial part, the Children came after.So while i think the COTF have a role i doubt it is a role of primary power.

So what do we do with the greenseers? How do they come into play?They are gifted yes,but they are human with all the vulnerability that comes with it.

Yes--Mel seems to be setting herself up for a big gesture that is bound to go wrong. If she involves Shireen (I really hope i'm wrong, but it seems almost inevitable at this point), that will undo her. She does this and it doesn't work, her power base falls, and that could severely undermine Stannis and his ability to unify the North. Enter the need for Dany and her attention-getting dragons (or just Drogon).

It would be a danm shame if Shireen does get sacrificed.It would be even worse if that sacrifice has the illusion of doing something bad ass.You know she could spin it.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not on the COTF being the wws creators bandwagon but its close enough in that no matter if the Children are the brains or the Greenseers are the brains the problem AND the solution from where i sit is the Greenseers.It is interesting to see who was in the synopsis and is still in the story,and who wasn't in the synopsis and are now in the story.The greenseers have remained in the story from begining to end and from the synopsis they seem to play a crucial part, the Children came after.So while i think the COTF have a role i doubt it is a role of primary power.

So what do we do with the greenseers? How do they come into play?They are gifted yes,but they are human with all the vulnerability that comes with it.

I'm still figuring out where I stand on who's doing what--but either way, you're right. The greenseers do have vulnerability. And if the Children need them or if they need the Children to work all this ice magic--they are human. And thus more knowable to work with (or against) than the Children.

I'm also assuming the blurb statement about maester and greenseer working together may bolster your point--the greenseers will be playing one way or the other. And this makes me more worried about Bran--he's in the position to eventually defy or undermine the greenseers--as some have mentioned earlier--but I could see the Children taking that very badly. Now, where would the maester come in? Sam? He seems interested in out-of-the-box thinking . . . maybe.

And fully agree on Mel. Matin's already given us hints of child sacrifice via Craster and the Night's King. Thinking he'll make us witness one with Shireen. And will be very hard to read. But will hopefully undo her power and influence. Still, AAAAAARGH!!!! Not happy.

[Green Hereseer]

All going to come to a final climactic battle at Winterfell according to above, and while heavy casualties are to be expected I reckon that its going to be won not by one side killing or destroying more of the other, but rather by something more up close and personal and not improbably being settled down below Winterfell rather than in the snow outside it.

I have my doubts that very much of the synopsis is still really in-play, I totally agree that the defining moment in the Song will probably be personal rather than due to conventional battle.

Per my theory that Bran will become the key fighter/leader/weapon on behalf of Cold/CotF/Popcicles/Anti-men, I think that the "winning" moment for mankind-- assuming it comes-- will be someone who knows and loves him convincing him that humanity should be allowed to live.

If anyone on here has read Stephen King's It, one way that I imagine the scene(s) as something akin to the climactic fight "in the void." Purely spiritual/emotional/mental rather than physical. A conversation, really.

[TheSmallOther]

All going to come to a final climactic battle at Winterfell according to above, and while heavy casualties are to be expected I reckon that its going to be won not by one side killing or destroying more of the other, but rather by something more up close and personal and not improbably being settled down below Winterfell rather than in the snow outside it.

And when Drogon will step through the corpses of it's kin to face it's last rival - Night's King, a bigger threat suddenly shows up. A Balrog of Winterfel. With an harp in his hands, singing the song of ice and fire. :devil:

[TheSmallOther]

I have my doubts that very much of the synopsis is still really in-play, I totally agree that the defining moment in the Song will probably be personal rather than due to conventional battle.

Per my theory that Bran will become the key fighter/leader/weapon on behalf of Cold/CotF/Popcicles/Anti-men, I think that the "winning" moment for mankind-- assuming it comes-- will be someone who knows and loves him convincing him that humanity should be allowed to live.

If anyone on here has read Stephen King's It, one way that I imagine the scene(s) as something akin to the climactic fight "in the void." Purely spiritual/emotional/mental rather than physical. A conversation, really.

There are theories around that Jaime is Azor Ahai reborn and the final battle will be between him and Bran. It all started that day in Winterfel, when Jaime decided to take his sister to the tower.

[Green Hereseer]

There are theories around that Jaime is Azor Ahai reborn and the final battle will be between him and Bran. It all started that day in Winterfel, when Jaime decided to take his sister to the tower.

I can't speak to that... sound kinda bonkers. 'Course, my theory sounds crazy to some of you, so there ya go.

What I want to know is how the hell did Jaime and Cersei get into the broken tower at winterfell? It specifically says that no one can get there without climbing. Seems like one of the only obvious screw-ups I've come across.

Oh bless you GRRM. Look where you've led us.

[Sly Wren]

Per my theory that Bran will become the key fighter/leader/weapon on behalf of Cold/CotF/Popcicles/Anti-men, I think that the "winning" moment for mankind-- assuming it comes-- will be someone who knows and loves him convincing him that humanity should be allowed to live.

If anyone on here has read Stephen King's It, one way that I imagine the scene(s) as something akin to the climactic fight "in the void." Purely spiritual/emotional/mental rather than physical. A conversation, really.

Agreed--that could work well--and fit with the psychological aspects of the novel. Could take place in part in the godswood--maintaining the "climactic battle in Winterfell" aspect of the blurb. Could even bring Sansa in as a player vs. just Jon as warrior. Sansa as mother figure. . . . but Jon could work, too.

But I am prejudiced against the "magical mixed-blood messiah" idea that Jon is supposed to be--so that could be skewing my judgment. And I am sleep-deprived. Still, I prefer this sort of angle--human, tied to psychology and emotion--vs. a fiery wolf-dragon magical transformation to save the world.

[Black Crow]

According to Melisandre this struggle between light and darkness is one which has been going on since time began, [and who are we to doubt her?] and climactic battle or not isn't going to be resolved in a battle in the snow with or without the intervention of dragon beasties. That's not to say definitively that we won't see them deployed, but what humanity doesn't need is to have Ice defeated far less destroyed by Fire. How the two are to be balanced remains to be seen but its not going to be so simplistic as R+L= a union of Ice and Fire. Magic was the cause of the screwed-up seasons and its the magic which has to be destroyed or at the very least put back to sleep.

I wonder, given that there are just three dragons where once there were many and given Leaf's lament about the dwindling of the children and the other old races, whether what we're engaged in is truly a battle between Ice and Fire or rather represents the last rallying of Magic in the face of extinction and that the old powers are awakening in the face of that danger.

Again I'm mindful of Conrad's Heart of Darkness and how ultimately the real threat came from the pilgrims.

[Black Crow]

I heavily suspect that at least one person's attempts to combat the Others is going to go horribly awry - Melisandre's. I think she's going to fulfill Dany's HotU vision of a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" by sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to quicken a dragon egg; there's really nobody left at the Wall to keep her from doing what she wants.

Oh I think that Melisandre screwing things up is one thing we can be tolerably certain of, and I wonder if it might even be the Wall itself. We know that there is magic deep in the Wall and that its made of blood as well as Ice. Melisandre can feel its power and declares it to be one of the great hinges of the world; as much her place as Jon Snow's [?], but what if she's wrong? We've talked before about the assertion that the Wall is evil - and patently obviously its made of Ice. In meddling with something she doesn't understand Mel may end up doing something she shouldn't oughter to the Wall itself.