Heresy 169

[Voice]

It's probably a bad sign that my immediate reaction to reading GRRM's quote was "Oh, so BtB's alive in the roots beneath Winterfell, and Lann the Clever is alive beneath the Casterly Rock godswood?"

I think his quote does hurt the chances that the historical NK is actually alive, but it certainly wasn't "unambiguous," in a world where figures such as the Undying may have also been perceived as legendary by the general populace of Qarth.

Nice. LOL. Yes, that "knowingly" upward-looking heart tree :cheers:

As sure as Winter, Night's King is Coming :devil:

". . . or not." Aemon chuckled softly. "Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall . . . but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied. Steward, you have served me faithfully. Do this one last brave thing for me. Go down to the ships, Sam. Learn all you can about these dragons."

It's too late if you're named Aemon Targaryen. But if your name is mayhaps-Brandon Stark, The 13th Commander of the Night's Watch, King of the North, the Winter, and the Others, then it is not too late to go running back to the Wall. The winds now blow in your favor, and you have airborne ice spiders to hasten the journey. Muahahahahaa :devil:

[wolfmaid7]

It's probably a bad sign that my immediate reaction to reading GRRM's quote was "Oh, so BtB's alive in the roots beneath Winterfell, and Lann the Clever is alive beneath the Casterly Rock godswood?"

I think his quote does hurt the chances that the historical NK is actually alive, but it certainly wasn't "unambiguous," in a world where figures such as the Undying may have also been perceived as legendary by the general populace of Qarth.

It kind of reminds me of when GRRM was asked who was Ned's mom and he said Lady Stark .People were still trying to guess who she was come to find out she was actually a Stark.

If we take GRRM's comment literally yeah the chances of any of these guys being "alive" and kicking after thousands of years is slim.I'm still disappointed because i wanted the 13LC to be around still atleast preserved.

But we did talk about this we know ice preserves then how long.

Another thing that whole idea of what is "alive"

We have Crows with singers long dead still in them,but their bodies died but they are still around in a way.

The biggest example i can give is BR.....I mean IS he dead?He's fading into the trees his body is more tree than man.

And he isn't walking around for sure.

But to go back to my theory all of these guys have their time and then they die and another takes their place.But i wonder if they really really die or just fade away?

[TheMiddleHero]

It kind of reminds me of when GRRM was asked who was Ned's mom and he said Lady Stark .People were still trying to guess who she was come to find out she was actually a Stark.

If we take GRRM's comment literally yeah the chances of any of these guys being "alive" and kicking after thousands of years is slim.I'm still disappointed because i wanted the 13LC to be around still atleast preserved.

But we did talk about this we know ice preserves then how long.

Another thing that whole idea of what is "alive"

We have Crows with singers long dead still in them,but their bodies died but they are still around in a way.

The biggest example i can give is BR.....I mean IS he dead?He's fading into the trees his body is more tree than man.

And he isn't walking around for sure.

But to go back to my theory all of these guys have their time and then they die and another takes their place.But i wonder if they really really die or just fade away?

Or do they truly fade away completely? Not sure where to go with this, but what does happen if BR dies? Or can he actually die in his current state? In his current state that has prolonged his life, how long can it prolong him? If they never disconnect him from the trees, how long?

[TheMiddleHero]

Yes, I think that's the danger with Bran. Getting lost in this world he's been chasing for a while. Getting lost in the visions like he does in warging.

But as Wolfmaid has pointed out at least a few times, Bran is stubborn. Doesn't like being told what to do. He's communicating with Theon but being told NOT to communicate with the past--not sure how long before he impulsively tries something a realizes he can get away with it. A lot like Arya with the Faceless Men. And that could lead to him seeing or understanding things BR and Leaf many not want him to. Which may keep him from turning into Kurtz Jr.

I'm hoping Sansa can get back to a tree. Or start paying attention to birds. Her frequent praying could REALLY come in handy for communicating with Bran and maybe keep him grounded (terrible pun). Or those glass candles--no evidence that they can be used in conjunction with the weirwoods--but there is a weirwood at the Citadel--communicating with Sam could be very good for Bran. . . .

Bottom line: he really could be Kurtz-in-training. But I'm thinking he'll fight back--he's a Stark. They're all starting to assert their identities.

ETA: Jaime as Nuada--yes with the hand. But I have a hard time seeing him as king, despite his appearance. I'm not convinced he'll make it through to the end, or maybe just up to the end . . .

Though we have seen a changing of Jaime, the references to it always get me. Jaime sitting on the throne after taking out Aerys, and always each character stating how "Kingly" he looks. Yet, it seems out of character in his initial presentation, never taking anything truly seriously.

[addicted to snow]

Thats not guaranteed. In fact, it would propel his story line if he willingly sacrificed himself.

I just guaranteed it... Theon survives the story...

Broken Characters are invincible in GRRM's world...

[TheMiddleHero]

I just guaranteed it... Theon survives the story...

Broken Characters are invincible in GRRM's world...

Care to expand? Reasoning?

[Sly Wren]

I just guaranteed it... Theon survives the story...

Broken Characters are invincible in GRRM's world...

If this is true, I can stop fretting about Bran. Which means I should absolutely believe you.

[Sly Wren]

Or do they truly fade away completely? Not sure where to go with this, but what does happen if BR dies? Or can he actually die in his current state? In his current state that has prolonged his life, how long can it prolong him? If they never disconnect him from the trees, how long?

Yes--when the Children say the Singers go into the trees, rocks, ravens, etc.--if BR is already largely in that tree and the tree is in him (Escher would love painting Bloodraven)--is he effectively dead? Will we be able to tell the difference when he does die?

I'm assuming that if you detach him, he dies. But I'm also assuming that his appearance isn't a glamour, which may be presumptuous.

Clearly the tree union preserves life, but how well it works, does BR want out via Bran, I'm not sure of any of this yet. There is speculation elsewhere that BR wants to use Bran to escape--which could make sense. Not yet sure if BR is a true believer in what he is doing or cynically trying to rope Bran in. How alive or dead he is could make a big difference in determining this.

Not at all sure if this is where you are going. Haven't slept in a while. But there it is.

[Sly Wren]

It kind of reminds me of when GRRM was asked who was Ned's mom and he said Lady Stark .People were still trying to guess who she was come to find out she was actually a Stark.

But to go back to my theory all of these guys have their time and then they die and another takes their place.But i wonder if they really really die or just fade away?

Agree with your statement about the cycle--Martin's statement suggests the cycle kept going--somehow. But your point about not really dying--that is that part of the problem of the construct of Summer and Winter King? Is that part of the reason the seasons are so loopy?

[redrose]

Bran's last chapter in DWD is a minefield of misinformation. We have BR give the speech about 1 in a million becoming greenseers, we then get leaf telling the Scooby gang that there are only 3 score children left in the cave. We then get Bran roaming around the cave wearing Hodor's skin and he comes across a room full of CoTF wired up to the weirnet? BR tells the Scooby gang that CoTF greenseers don't live as long as a run of the mill CoTF, and yet here we have a human greenseer who has lived past the normal mortal lifespan??? I'm sorry if this seems like rambling but the facts and figures we are given do not correspond with what we are bearing witness too.

[wolfmaid7]

Agree with your statement about the cycle--Martin's statement suggests the cycle kept going--somehow. But your point about not really dying--that is that part of the problem of the construct of Summer and Winter King? Is that part of the reason the seasons are so loopy?

Yeah i agree that is part of the problem. I was doing a hypo considering how the whole "fading into the host" goes and possibly linking that to BR doing something pretty shady like training Bran and then kicking him out his body.I posted this before a few pages with the Thistle V6 explanation.

Technically V6 would have been dead and no longer walking around in his own flesh,but he would have been walking around as Thistle.So that's where GRRM's statement get kind of iffy because V6 did proove some crap like that could take place. I mean if he was stronger Thistle soul would have been a gonner.

[Sly Wren]

Bran's last chapter in DWD is a minefield of misinformation. We have BR give the speech about 1 in a million becoming greenseers, we then get leaf telling the Scooby gang that there are only 3 score children left in the cave. We then get Bran roaming around the cave wearing Hodor's skin and he comes across a room full of CoTF wired up to the weirnet? BR tells the Scooby gang that CoTF greenseers don't live as long as a run of the mill CoTF, and yet here we have a human greenseer who has lived past the normal mortal lifespan??? I'm sorry if this seems like rambling but the facts and figures we are given do not correspond with what we are bearing witness too.

Oh, no--not rambling. Just listing all the reasons we should not be trusting Leaf or BR. Many, many things are off, which means whatever they tell Bran about why they are "helping" him has got to be off.

Back to BC's Heart of Darkness metaphor--they seem to think Bran will be like the Harlequin/Russian. Turn into an acolyte. I'm hoping his stubborn streak comes out.

But your mention of the scoobies--wondering how well and how long Meera or Jojen will go along with all this without starting to question themselves. I don't think they are actively trying to trick Bran (I may be off, obviously), but given all the evidence you listed--at some point, you'd think they'd start questioning, too.

[Sly Wren]

Yeah i agree that is part of the problem. I was doing a hypo considering how the whole "fading into the host" goes and possibly linking that to BR doing something pretty shady like training Bran and then kicking him out his body.I posted this before a few pages with the Thistle V6 explanation.

Technically V6 would have been dead and no longer walking around in his own flesh,but he would have been walking around as Thistle.So that's where GRRM's statement get kind of iffy because V6 did proove some crap like that could take place. I mean if he was stronger Thistle soul would have been a gonner.

Now, that would be interesting. An in-body fight between Bran and BR.

Probably the weirdest version of Thunderdome ever.

But seriously--if that is the struggle--soul vs. soul like we saw with V6 and Thistle--hard to compare souls, obviously, but Bran's does not seem weak. The soul of BR--that strength could be debated. Am assuming that even with the tree BR probably has to work pretty hard to stay alive. That fight could be really interesting . . .

Now I'm going to be thinking about this while I'm supposed to be researching Victorian criminal insanity. . . guess there might be a crossover with BR . . .

[Sly Wren]

As sure as Winter, Night's King is Coming :devil:

". . . or not." Aemon chuckled softly. "Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall . . . but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied. Steward, you have served me faithfully. Do this one last brave thing for me. Go down to the ships, Sam. Learn all you can about these dragons."

It's too late if you're named Aemon Targaryen. But if your name is mayhaps-Brandon Stark, The 13th Commander of the Night's Watch, King of the North, the Winter, and the Others, then it is not too late to go running back to the Wall. The winds now blow in your favor, and you have airborne ice spiders to hasten the journey. Muahahahahaa :devil:

I suppose Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, Night's King could all come back as wights. Throw in the Winged Knight and his Giant Falcon--go where no ice spider has gone before.

[wolfmaid7]

Now, that would be interesting. An in-body fight between Bran and BR.

Probably the weirdest version of Thunderdome ever.

But seriously--if that is the struggle--soul vs. soul like we saw with V6 and Thistle--hard to compare souls, obviously, but Bran's does not seem weak. The soul of BR--that strength could be debated. Am assuming that even with the tree BR probably has to work pretty hard to stay alive. That fight could be really interesting . . .

Now I'm going to be thinking about this while I'm supposed to be researching Victorian criminal insanity. . . guess there might be a crossover with BR . . .

Oh for sure Bran isn't weak,but BR has been doing this a while and he has a collective behind him indicated by his statement at the end of one lesson " the trees are calling." So who knows. If he is attempting to do something like that it would be crazy and freaking skin crawling.

I mean V6 did some messed up stuff and he was gifted no doubt about that. He forced Haggon from his wolf, and seem to think(though i don't believe he could have) taken Ghost from Jon.

So in a scenario like that if we superimpose that on BR and Bran.He forces Bran out his body ,he gets a body with the same gift as he has so he would't have lost the ability to sknchange.I mean it is possible because V6 set the precedent that it "could" happen.Now that it will happen or might :dunno:

[Mace Cooterian]

Bran's last chapter in DWD is a minefield of misinformation. We have BR give the speech about 1 in a million becoming greenseers, we then get leaf telling the Scooby gang that there are only 3 score children left in the cave. We then get Bran roaming around the cave wearing Hodor's skin and he comes across a room full of CoTF wired up to the weirnet? BR tells the Scooby gang that CoTF greenseers don't live as long as a run of the mill CoTF, and yet here we have a human greenseer who has lived past the normal mortal lifespan??? I'm sorry if this seems like rambling but the facts and figures we are given do not correspond with what we are bearing witness too.

One score (at least in terms of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address) equals 20 years. Not sure I remember in Leaf's assertions about what remains in the their ranks. Three score of children in Lincolns terms would be 60 children.

Did Leaf define the numbers as three score?

Too lazy to look it up. Still still suffering from jet lag.

[TheSmallOther]

I suppose Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, Night's King could all come back as wights. Throw in the Winged Knight and his Giant Falcon--go where no ice spider has gone before.

Emm... Night's King as wight? :box:

[Voice]

I suppose Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, Night's King could all come back as wights. Throw in the Winged Knight and his Giant Falcon--go where no ice spider has gone before.

Well, in my thinking Bran the Builder probably became Night's King. But I can definitely see him being flanked by some big names from the Age of "Heroes" :devil:

Emm... Night's King as wight? :box:

LOL

[Black Crow]

Now there's an angle I'd not thought of--Coldhands as devotee--Harlequin (sorry, first time I read it, my teacher called him Harlequin. Now, when I teach it, I call him Harlequin. No way out) never fully understands Kurtz but follows/reveres him. The idea that Coldhands is a devotee--gave himself up to transformation (I assume that's where you are going--throw things at me if I'm wrong)--could explain why he is so different from other wights.

Which may give a clue as to how the magic works--if one gives (in this case) himself over to the transformation, some will may be retained--wondering if that could come in handy later in undoing BR and Leaf.

Russian/Harlequin, it doesn't really matter, the point is the identification with Coldhands which we find both in their roles and that speech which Coldhands makes about Bloodraven in his "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." speech, which echoes the Harlequin's descriptions of Kurtz.

Having made that identification its also important I think to recall that ultimately the Harlequin wasn't entirely blinded by his admiration of Kurtz as we see both in his revealing to Marlow that it was Kurtz who ordered the ambush as they approached the village - Just as Bran and the Scoobies were ambushed outside the cave - and in the way he unconcernedly wanders off into the sunset afterwards.

[Black Crow]

One score (at least in terms of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address) equals 20 years. Not sure I remember in Leaf's assertions about what remains in the their ranks. Three score of children in Lincolns terms would be 60 children.

Did Leaf define the numbers as three score?

Too lazy to look it up. Still still suffering from jet lag.

Its GRRM himself in text:

The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers, and the bones of thousands dead.