Heresy 169

[Sly Wren]

3.We look at the way that they fought war and interacted with humans.They don't have that type of mind case in point.The clan of Children being dupped by Gendel and Gorne out of their cave system.The fact that eventhough your god scared the crap out of the first men so much they converted.You conceded most of your lands in a pact and now they are fighting back to get it what they either gave up without thinking or got dupped in the pact ?Again either way you look at it it takes a man to think like a man.

4. Again i see no logic in killing all humans by the Children of the forest or in my case the other Seer their whole point is to guide and protect.If anything the Greenseers are connected to the trees who the children believe are gods so the greenseers are intermediaries between the trees and the children.Without the greenseers the Children do not "hear from the gods." And that places the children in a position of vulnerability.

Agree that the Children can be tricked and defeated. But that doesn't mean they don't have strategic ability--anyone can be tricked, human or otherwise. And, with their long lives, a long-learning curve seems at least possible. And they have SO much more information than the humans--plus, the inability/failure/refusal to reclaim land--any chance it was tied more to a decrease in Magic vs. just "duped?"

But agree that the Children may still want to keep some people. As has been mentioned, the nuclear winter idea may be getting them to something in Winterfell. Or, if just nuclear winter, even that won't kill all humans, just lots and lots of them. They could still have eventual access to new greenseers. So, maybe a middle ground--yes, kill lots of people, but need/want greenseers so not kill all the people?

ETA: Have you all looked at possible parallels between Bloodraven and the Night's King? Was thinking of his being more powerful at night--assuming he's not a vampire, could this be a reference to greenseeing? Bran "likes it in the dark." The Night's King has more power/ability/tie to magic in the dark. Maybe. . .

[Black Crow]

Oh, dear--they will not be happy. Or maybe they will--they really like circles. As do I--to a point.

The reaction, as usual, appears to be to ignore or downplay it. After all it doesn't specifically contradict anything. It just means that the App cannot be used as canon. What do I think is interesting is the distinction drawn by Ran between the App and the World Book, in asserting that the level of GRRM's input into the latter was such that it is canon.

[Black Crow]

Agree that the Children can be tricked and defeated. But that doesn't mean they don't have strategic ability--anyone can be tricked, human or otherwise. And, with their long lives, a long-learning curve seems at least possible. And they have SO much more information than the humans--plus, the inability/failure/refusal to reclaim land--any chance it was tied more to a decrease in Magic vs. just "duped?"

Agreed. Luwin is straightforward in stating that the Pact came about through mutual exhaustion. The children conceded what they did not because they were naive or tricked, but because they were realistic and were quitting while they were ahead.

[Black Crow]

And a further clarification:

Even questions GRRM personally answered are still semi-canon, at least for purposes of the wiki. It's not canon until it's found between the covers of a book, is George's position. :)

[Sly Wren]

Quick check back to the 7 metaphor--(sorry--fourth night of insomnia--brain went many places on many things--this is where it went Martin-wise)

Both the fire and ice magic people focus on seeing--embracing power beyond normal humans through magic that give them information. For greenseers, it's "illumination" of sorts IN the dark (Bran says so). For Mel, fire IN the darkness--the LoL doesn't illuminate the world, but gives light IN the night (dark and full of terrors). In both cases, any illumination is limited--big for the individual who sees, but limited to everyone else.

But "the light of the 7"--requires no sacrifices, just contemplation and prayer. It's stated in phrases that seem to suggest it's just light, and light for all. Granted, the zealots misuse the faith, but the basic premise seems much less exclusive than the ice or fire lot. Again--seems the 7 metaphor could be suggesting a much more workable human model than one true leader.

[Sly Wren]

The reaction, as usual, appears to be to ignore or downplay it. After all it doesn't specifically contradict anything. It just means that the App cannot be used as canon. What do I think is interesting is the distinction drawn by Ran between the App and the World Book, in asserting that the level of GRRM's input into the latter was such that it is canon.

Which will just give them more to say--again, maybe happy. And gives everyone more reliability in playing with World Book.

ETA: Plus the post about nothing that isn't between the covers of a book--very specific.

[WhitewolfStark]

I'm not really sure what that would achieve and tend myself to see the prophecies as a dangerous distraction. What I think interesting is the lack of any emphasis on prophesy until Melisandre turns up from out east and all of a sudden readers are falling over themselves, in spite of GRRM's warnings, to identify Azor Ahai etc and proclaim him [or her] as the saviour of mankind against the Others.

I suspect myself that the prophecies are red herrings - a distraction from figuring out what's really going on.

:agree:

And it has the added benefit of fans justifying other characters' obsessions with prophesy, even when said obsessions could be said to have had more negative consequences than positive ones.

[WhitewolfStark]

Double Post.

[Black Crow]

Quick check back to the 7 metaphor--(sorry--fourth night of insomnia--brain went many places on many things--this is where it went Martin-wise)

Both the fire and ice magic people focus on seeing--embracing power beyond normal humans through magic that give them information. For greenseers, it's "illumination" of sorts IN the dark (Bran says so). For Mel, fire IN the darkness--the LoL doesn't illuminate the world, but gives light IN the night (dark and full of terrors). In both cases, any illumination is limited--big for the individual who sees, but limited to everyone else.

But "the light of the 7"--requires no sacrifices, just contemplation and prayer. It's stated in phrases that seem to suggest it's just light, and light for all. Granted, the zealots misuse the faith, but the basic premise seems much less exclusive than the ice or fire lot. Again--seems the 7 metaphor could be suggesting a much more workable human model than one true leader.

I think that one problem with this Ice and Fire business lies in taking it too literally. Its argued by some for example that the children cannot be behind Craster's boys because they sing the songs of the earth, not Ice, whilst as you say there's that curious dichotomy of Mel embracing the darkness of shadows because they are cast by the light. I think that at bottom the Ice and Fire is not "site specific" but rather represents a conflict between extremes, while the Seven potentially represent accommodation and compromise. We have in the past, for example discussed how they embrace elements of both Ice and Fire, with the maiden, mother and crone being the three human aspects of the Morrigan - who could justifiably be referred to as the three-eyed crow.

[Sly Wren]

So, to be very reductive, in the song of ice and fire, the only safety is the 7? This could make the messiah hunters very unhappy. Game of thrones=cyvasse. Game of magical messiahs=fire and ice. Game of human survival=7.

But, along those same lines, the extremes don't set up truth or seeing (back to what I was trying to say about light). Craster chases extremes but doesn't get safety--just false self-assurance and dominance. I'm not sure what Bloodraven was originally chasing--assume it's power, hence potential parallels to Night's King--but look where he is?

The ice and fire extremes aren't just extreme--they are lies (which makes me sound very preachy, sorry). It may even go back (sorry) to the fairy idea--you always get burned on the extremes. They cost in blood sacrifice, etc. And, if the 7 gives moderation, goes back to the folk-tales about the fairies burning away the soul and the need to stay close to the church (usually Catholic).

So, that leaves me with a question: if Wolfmaid is right and the greenseers and wargs are outsiders, is there a place in the metaphor of the 7 for magic? You mentioned the Morrigan--but even then it gets broken into aspects. Is the innate magic and the extremes it encourages a threat that can't be overcome?

[Sly Wren]

:agree:

And it has the added benefit of fans justifying other characters' obsessions with prophesy, even when said obsessions could be said to have had more negative consequences than positive ones.

Well, they are psychological novels after all--Martin does seem to enjoy setting readers up to do the same things his characters are doing. Proves he's doing a lot more than just writing a fantasy. Saying a lot about human psychology and weakness by exposing the weaknesses of us readers.

[Black Crow]

So, that leaves me with a question: if Wolfmaid is right and the greenseers and wargs are outsiders, is there a place in the metaphor of the 7 for magic? You mentioned the Morrigan--but even then it gets broken into aspects. Is the innate magic and the extremes it encourages a threat that can't be overcome?

I don't see the greenseers and wargs as outsiders but as integral to the "natural" forces represented by "Ice".

As to the Seven and magic, I think the point which we discussed before was that the Seven is inclusive. There are the three magical and natural aspects represented by the three faces of the Morrigan and the three non-magical represented by the father, warrior and smith, all united by the Stranger.

If we look to the Reeds' oath this motif is represented in a similar but simplified form. First it's sworn by the natural forces of earth and water, then by the man-made ones of bronze and iron; then jointly sworn by their extremes of Ice and Fire

[Matthew.]

Are Father, Warrior, and Smith "less magical" than Mother, Maiden, and Crone? Azor Ahai was a warrior, a smith, and possibly a father :mellow:

[JNR]

Are Father, Warrior, and Smith "less magical" than Mother, Maiden, and Crone? Azor Ahai was a warrior, a smith, and possibly a father :mellow:

Not to mention a BAMF.

[Black Crow]

Are Father, Warrior, and Smith "less magical" than Mother, Maiden, and Crone? Azor Ahai was a warrior, a smith, and possibly a father :mellow:

Not necessarily I suppose; there must always be mystery in what you worship. However I think my central point remains that while Ice and Fire represent extremes the Seven offer a middle ground and a union - and not in a single individual either.

[Sly Wren]

I like the idea that the balance of the 7 (or the idea of the 7) ties in with the Reeds' oath. While the 7 goes through the phases and roles of humans (magical or otherwise), the oath is a balance of the magical environment and how humans engage with it.

But if the Reeds include ice and fire--does this suggest that the extremes not only have a place in the balance, but are necessary for it? Back to the magics being in the earth and rock and blood and all that--the magic IS there. Warrior and Smith as Ahor Azai--plus Smith working metals is a form of magics. Can't have balance without all the magics . . .

[wolfmaid7]

I don't see the greenseers and wargs as outsiders but as integral to the "natural" forces represented by "Ice".

As to the Seven and magic, I think the point which we discussed before was that the Seven is inclusive. There are the three magical and natural aspects represented by the three faces of the Morrigan and the three non-magical represented by the father, warrior and smith, all united by the Stranger.

If we look to the Reeds' oath this motif is represented in a similar but simplified form. First it's sworn by the natural forces of earth and water, then by the man-made ones of bronze and iron; then jointly sworn by their extremes of Ice and Fire

By outsiders i mean with regard to their place in the social construct of men. "In the world that men have created there is no place for us." which is true. They have to go to ground can't live openly because of how they are seen. But what men don't understand is the Greenseers are as you say intergral to nature.

This is why i think there may need to be that the new world will consist of the Old races alongside sympathetic humans and sadly......purge the rest.

[Sly Wren]

One more quick thing--if this metaphor holds--balance of magic, balance of human aspects--would mean that not only would the ideal of a one true messiah (PTWP or AA) not help anything but would innately upset the balance, yes? The polarizing extremes that would set up an AA would actually make things worse. Already shown in Mel, but also suggests that even a "true" messiah wouldn't work . . .

[Sly Wren]

By outsiders i mean with regard to their place in the social construct of men. "In the world that men have created there is no place for us." which is true. They have to go to ground can't live openly because of how they are seen. But what men don't understand is the Greenseers are as you say intergral to nature.

This is why i think there may need to be that the new world will consist of the Old races alongside sympathetic humans and sadly......purge the rest.

But, assuming the ice-horror can be stopped at some point, they're continuing to live on the edges as part of life and magic--possible? Or do you think they've thrown down the gauntlet--all or nothing?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Just for information, I will add Bloodraven. And his relationship with the Norse god Odin. Well, it is hard to think in Bloodraven as not in sorts inspired by the character Odin. After the basics (blind of one eye, crows and, of course, dabbling in magic), to list a few, basic ones: god of rulers (Bloodraven was Hand) and outcasts (ruler, LC of NW, outcasts), disdain of justice, laws, etc (Bloodraven tricked the Blackfyre pretender, killing him). The long search for knowledge, and the obvious and blatant shamanistic both have. And with his shamanism they have familiars, as skinchangers have their thrall, Odin, in special, have his ravens and his wolves.

And, of course, Odin's relationship with the dead. Odin was a necromancer, as we see in the Ynglinga Saga 7, and the reason is simply: Odin wants to raise his army of soldiers.

Of course, there are much more.

Back to the subject, I can't see the Seven as Temperance. While they aren't very... interesting when you have the animistic/shamanistic old gods, the fiery lord of light or the god of death, the Faith is the religion we know more about: their illumination is very dim, as Baelor can attest, and it is literally based only faith, it doesn't grant powers or even counsel.

Also, the Seven are very focused on the human aspect (age for young, adult and elder; occupation for ruler, warrior and crafters. And demise). Jojen claims there is power in the woods, as strong as fire. The red priests, also claim power in their fires. The Seven offer no power, their priests claim the power to be in the gods themselves yet the gods only represent the very human nature. The Seven stand in the middle of a battlefield with no way to defend themselves. Are they going to try to Conciliate the extreme sides?