I read the most AMAZING theory! read it and have your mind blown!

[Khaella]

I disagree with the theory.

The only way to recognize a dragon is another dragon. I.E. if Jon is recognised by Dany or rides a dragon, he is a Targ. If not, no amount of minor items is gonna work. Aegon has the advantage of circumstantial evidence and NOT obviously being something else for ages. Plus not being in the NW. But even he can only be a Targaryen by Dany or by recognition of the great Lords of Westeros.

That doesn't prove legitimacy though. This theory doesn't just want to prove R+L=J it wants to prove that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and Jon is legitimate. Being a dragon rider only says that he has dragon blood.

[Syrio.Forel]

*MIND BLOWN*

On one hand, I'm upset I read this, as I feel I've just read huge spoilers... On the other, I'm reminded of how much I truly love this series and absolutely am so hyped up for TWOW!!!!!

With writing like this, though, I am on team "GRRM - Take Your Time", just to get the mind-blowing experience he's envisioned instead of a rushed product off our greedy demands (which, let's be honest, we all want him to hurry up.... lol)....

[Magnar of Skagos]

I really like this feeling. Seems solid enough... I definitely will be looking for these clues during my current re-read of the series.

[WitteRaaf]

 

The crown from the kings in the North would just prove that he is a Stark and we know that he has Stark blood. Rhaegar's harp is widely known by many characters.

the crown of the kings of winter was yielded to the targs (iirc). Maybe he gave it back.  I don't really believe this but I find it more plausible.  

 

A a crown of winter roses...winter roses wreathed around a crown?   It could work

[Khaella]

A crown of winter roses is a good idea to prove that he is Lyanna's but we need something to prove that he is Rhaegar's. A wedding cloak would be an excellent addition to the harp so that Jon knows that he is legitimate. Granted it probably isn't important in the grand scheme of things, but I think that it would help Jon a lot since he is always upset over being a bastard. A wedding cloak would show that his father wasn't a rapist and wedded his mother. Just some closure for Jon.

[Khaella]

The only way to recognize a dragon is another dragon. I.E. if Jon is recognised by Dany or rides a dragon, he is a Targ. If not, no amount of minor items is gonna work. Aegon has the advantage of circumstantial evidence and NOT obviously being something else for ages. Plus not being in the NW. But even he can only be a Targaryen by Dany or by recognition of the great Lords of Westeros.

This makes no sense. Just because someone can ride a dragon doesn't mean they are a Targaryen. Targaryen's are not the only dragon riders in history. All of their power was based on the fact that they had dragons. I know if I was in their place I would say that only my family can ride dragons. Sure it takes skill and maybe some kind of magic but it is most certainly not just limited to Targaryens. Also it doesn't prove legitimacy. In The Princess and the Queen, "dragonseeds" from all over tried to ride dragons and many died trying. 

Aegon is a fraud and he may ride a dragon because he does have the blood of the dragon. Bastard or not blood is blood. 

"Dany is the only one who can recognize them as dragons"? She didn't notice that Brown Ben Plumm had a "drop or two of dragon blood" so why would she see that in anyone else? 

As to Jon being in the Night's Watch, his death has released him from his vows. He will be a free man once again. 

As to "no amount of minor items is gonna work", the Iron Throne is a red herring, so proving the legitimacy is either for something important to come or to give Jon some sort of closure so he will stop beating himself up about it all the time.

Rhaegar's harp was widely known throughout the Seven Kingdoms, and if anyone knew anything about the Starks, they will know that they aren't looters. 

As to a letter written, that is to easy and anyone can write a letter.

A slight flaw in the theory 1. The Stark women has tombs but no Statue,2 Brandon Stark got a statue. 3. I'm pretty sure when Lyanna's bones was being placed in it's final resting place there was others present Howland Reed ,the Manderlys , old Nan , Benjen and maybe Robert Baratheon somebody would notice if things like a silver harp with the initials R.T .on it in her tomb .4 Mainly personal items of the departed is placed in the tombs .

Yes Stark women have tombs, and no statues, BUT they are not buried in the crypts. The crypts are solely reserved for the Lords of Winterfell and the old King's in the North. The simple fact that she is buried there should raise suspicions. Why would the Manderlys travel all that way for a daughter? Lord Rickard perhaps, but not a daughter. Also tombs can be reopened, or things can be put underneath bodies and wrapped in cloaks (perhaps even a Targaryen wedding cloak). If Howland was present he already knows everything that happened, Old Nan, wouldn't say anything and there is a good possibility that Benjen knew. Robert Baratheon wasn't there because he was in King's Landing securing his throne and getting married.

 

[HallowedMarcus]

Congratulations. Very logical indeed.  Hope it's true.

[Dawsy08]

On 29 July 2015 at 0:57 PM, The hairy bear said:

Turin,

 

Allowing Jon to take a life oath without all the information would be an awful thing to do, if he intended to reveal it one day. The prospects of a bastard son and a royal heir are completely different, and explaining Jon his origins after he has commited himself to the Watch would be a bertrayal  (to Jon and to the spirit of the oath to Lyanna).

 

I'm not sold on the theory.

But now his watch has ended.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

I think those focusing on the Harp proving Jon's heritage on it's own are missing the point, and are disputing a point the theory/OP isn't even trying to make. Also, remember, there there are doubts about every possible claimant, and the fact than Jon wouldn't have to convince everyone, only a significant portion, and remember, there are doubts about Aegon as well.

1) Tommen. You have a king sitting on the throne who is alleged to be illegitimate. Stannis may know the proofs. And he has a reputation for telling the truth, as did Ned. John Arryn knew them. Ned knew them. Jaime has admitted to some (Cat) that he's the father. A clever person (Sam?) could make the same leap that Ned did, given the same book.

Anyway, with Stannis' letter out there, and the fact that all of Cersei's kids look Lannister, and all of Ned's bastards look Baratheon, it is out there. There is some doubt.

2) Aegon. Lots of doubts here. JonCon's word. His looks. Knowledge. What else?

3) Even Dany. The proofs here are her name (not many would claim it if it wasn't theirs). Her looks. And the fact that she can ride dragons and survive fire.

Not look at Jon. If he can

A. Ride a dragon

B. Has Howland Reed vouching for his parentage at the Tower of Joy.

C. The Harp is discovered in Lyanna's tomb (at this isn't a casket, you can't place an item in the tomb afterwards without breaking it/defiling it) in front of witnesses.

There could be powerful incentive for many in Westeros to accept Jon Snow as the rightful heir. First off, if Tommen is dead/de-legitimized, then Robert's line would be out of it, so no more Lannisters would have claim to even be regent if Tommen is dead. So, if Maggy the Frog is correct (and she nailed the # of Robert's children, and Cersei's, and the fact Cersei would marry the King, not the Prince, and 1/3 of Cersei's kids are already dead), Tommen will be out of the picture, as will Myrcella, and probably pretty soon. 

That would leave Stannis. Who isn't in a real good spot right now, either.

Minus those two, we are down to a choice between Jon and two Targs. The people of Westeros (and their Lords) may be willing to accept Jon as legit given these proofs more so than Aegon. Plus Jon is a Stark as well, so he'll likely get the North behind him, at the least (and probably the Riverlands). And Dany, technically, can't inherit anyway in Westeros, because of her girl parts.

Plus, there could be some other proofs in Lyanna's tomb (a will, a letter?) from Rhaegar, or more revelations via Bloodraven/Bran that lead to more proofs.

--------------------------

Anyway, I love the theory. Sign me up. Good proofs. I like the symmetry of it. Waking dragons from stone. Song of Ice and Fire. The mentions of the harp throughout the books. It would prove Jon's parentage to the reader, if not all of Westeros. But, given the conditions in the Seven Kingdoms when a reveal is likely, it could convince many, especially given other proofs (Howland Reed, Jon riding a dragon, a note, info from Bran/Bloodraven, etc). And some in Westeros will likely never be convinced (Stannis? Cersei?).

 

[marv_hucker]

On 6/4/2015 at 3:51 AM, Khaella said:

The Theory

Rhaegar's unique silver-stringed harp is in Lyanna's tomb.

But this thought process is revealing; we readers inherently know that if any kind of proof exists; it will be something both

Well-known to the high lords and ladies of the realm

Universally recognized as a symbol of the true Targaryen lineage

Yeah if only there was some other Targ-linked object that only they had, that symbolised their house, that only Targs could have, or use.

Anyone remember what was on their banner? Feel like I'm forgetting something here.

[Bayard]

So, a bastard son of Ned Stark, having gained some military power tries to double his legitimacy by pillaging the tomb of his aunt and using an artifact that belonged to Rhaegar. That's what every lord in Westeros would say. Everyone goes on with this: how does he prove he is Rhaegar's son. Well, let me put it another way, how does he prove he is Lyanna's son??? Any of the two ways works, but IMO he can't do it. So he comes up with the harp, so what??? Wouldn't it be normal for Lyanna to have it?? Everyone knows she lived with Rhaegar for over a year.... it means absolutely nothing. How does the harp show she had a son? how does the harp show that that child was Jon??? It doesn't and honestly, nothing will. Even if we get witnesses, like Howland Reed, if we get artifacts, if we get the septon who performed the marriage, they have no proof, just words... people won't believe them. Why are people obsessed with this legitimacy issue.... we don't even know if Jon will be in a position to take the throne, if he survives that long. IMO it's very likely that people in Westeros won't ever recognize him as a Targaryen and he might not even try to do it. In the eyes of Westeros, the only way for him to prove he is a dragon is if he rides a dragon. Sure, that doesn't mean he is Rhaegar's, it doesn't even necessarily mean he is a Valyrian... but in the eyes of the lords? that's the only thing that will do it... of course if other non-Valyrians don't do it as well. (Or, if a Targaryen queen or king buys into the proofs and acknowledges him as brother, nephew... but even so, people wouldn't believe it)

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-01-18 at 7:15 PM, Khaella said:

 

Yes Stark women have tombs, and no statues, BUT they are not buried in the crypts. The crypts are solely reserved for the Lords of Winterfell and the old King's in the North. The simple fact that she is buried there should raise suspicions. Why would the Manderlys travel all that way for a daughter? Lord Rickard perhaps, but not a daughter. Also tombs can be reopened, or things can be put underneath bodies and wrapped in cloaks (perhaps even a Targaryen wedding cloak). If Howland was present he already knows everything that happened, Old Nan, wouldn't say anything and there is a good possibility that Benjen knew. Robert Baratheon wasn't there because he was in King's Landing securing his throne and getting married.

 

They are too buried in the crypts.

Quote

GOT Eddard I - "Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. "Here," he told his king."

Not his "son" (singular, the one to be Lord after him), not "sons" (plural, leaving out the girls), but "children" (a gender-neutral plural term used to designate ALL his children, girls and boys, his heir and the all spares).  At his point in the story (chapter one) Ned would expect him and Robb to one day have statues but he does expect ALL his children to be buried in the crypts.  There are even tombs waiting for them.

On 2016-03-09 at 4:25 PM, marv_hucker said:

Yeah if only there was some other Targ-linked object that only they had, that symbolised their house, that only Targs could have, or use.

Anyone remember what was on their banner? Feel like I'm forgetting something here.

You mean dragons?  Like the dragons that happily accepted Ulf the White, Nettles, and Hugh Hammer, all of whom had no discernible link to House Targaryen as bastards or otherwise?  Not to mention houses like the Plumms that we know are descended from female Targaryens (if not male and female Targaryens), and other Houses that have had a Targeryen girl marry into it and their descendants. 

[Roose Banner]

The harp won't mean all that much, even if it is in Lyanna's tomb. It would look like spoils of war as much as anything else. The Stark's used to take the daughters of those they had defeated in war. The north remembers. So they are known for looting to an extent.

There would need to be more evidence to prove anything about Jon's parentage. The harp would only be one piece of debatable of circumstantial evidence.

[evita mgfs]

The problem I have with hidden clues in the crypts is that the statues are situated so that their backs are blocking the vaults in which those dead Starks are buried.  Getting to the earthly remains means a monumental effort of moving a rather heavy statue, and risking damaging the statue.  I am not sure, but I think opening a sealed grave is not a good thing to do.  Just saying . . . 

[marv_hucker]

On 3/17/2016 at 5:24 AM, Jak Scaletongue said:

 

You mean dragons?  Like the dragons that happily accepted Ulf the White, Nettles, and Hugh Hammer, all of whom had no discernible link to House Targaryen as bastards or otherwise?  Not to mention houses like the Plumms that we know are descended from female Targaryens (if not male and female Targaryens), and other Houses that have had a Targeryen girl marry into it and their descendants. 

The difference is, now, there's 3 dragons in the known world. Whoever controls 2 of those 3 dragons calls the shots. And there's plenty of quotes that suggest it's the power that matters, not the 'truth' at the heart of the matter. There's no dragon-riding blacks to say who was & wasn't legit Targ, like there was in the Dance.

 

I could easily see the harp ending up as a nice gotcha moment. Just like Ned figuring out what 'the seed is strong' meant.

Mind you I would also be shocked if all 3 dragons end up allied to Dany.

[Aryya Stark]

It's a good theory about the location of the harp and what happened to it. However, I think more proof would be required to connect Jon to the harp and to Lyanna and Rhaegar in general. The harp doesn't prove that Jon is their son or that they even had a son. Let's hope there are more proofs in the crypt than just the harp. However, I do think that Lyanna's crypt holds some kind of proof in addition to whatever is in the lower levels of the crypt.

[Gala]

On 6/13/2015 at 9:09 PM, The King Beyond The Wall said:

Puts tinfoil hat on:

 

What if Jon Snow had a twin... And it could be a male or female..

 

Darkstar?

 

I've heard a theory R+L=D

 

After typing this and looking at the above... What if R+L=D&D (Darkstar & Dany) hahaha! *Goes crazy* mahahaa... Maybe its been in front of all of us... D&D are the hint, that's why they were the "chosen ones".

 

All jokes aside have we or anyone looked at the twin possibility?

 

Edit:

 

Jon & Darkstar both have similar and contrasting features. One has more stark features the other has more targ features. :S

 

Edit #2:

 

Googling led me to a few threads here with twin ideas.

What if it was a girl, not a boy. Allyria Dayne, for example. We do not know how old she is exactly. Daynes are good to the Starks despite their common history. 

[joaozinm]

Anything found on Lyanna's crypt can be accomplish the objetive of getting Jon to know his heritage... Doesn't seem to me that would give him a proof to convince the others  or a claim to throne...

 

Also, isn't poligamy condemned by the Lords? (if there was even a wedding) Only Elia's marriage should count so, Jon should be a bastard once gain, with no claim at all.

The road to the iron throne for Jon seems really unlikely, 1 -  He has to discover his heritage 2 - he has to want to rule. 3 - He has to proove his heritage. 4- R+L had to be married. 5 - Poligamy should be ok. 6- Aegon is fake. 7 - Daenerys is not mad.

All of this... solved by an old famous harp on a crypt for years? If he is to be king, that would be by daenerys side i think.

[Southron Knight]

I rolled my eyes when I saw the title of this thread, but you were right. Truth be told, I'm actually kind of mad at you for ruining what would have been an amazing plot twist. I think you ought to be warning people about this.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Makes sense. I like it more than the 7ruby/glamour theories.