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[Book Spoilers] Did Eastwatch suddenly disappear?


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I am asking, because Ep 8 and the preview for Ep 9 suggest that they might have "streamlined" the
geography of the wall for simplicity and convinient drama.

According to the asoiaf geography, on their return from Hardhome Jon and the
wildlings would land at Eastwatch by the sea. They would get off the ships
on the SOUTH side of the Wall. Then they'd travel on the south side towards
Castle Black. They wouldn't travel on the north side, because there they
would be exposed to the risk of another White Walker attack.

Book geography: no tunnel drama

Thus - there would be no need to get through the tunnel at Castle Black, and
Thorne wouldn't be in the position to decide whether or not he let's them
through.

But in the show, Ep 8 Jon has already planned that they need to cross the
tunnel:

KARSI: Come with you where?
JON: There are good lands south of the wall. The Night's Watch will allowyou through the tunnel and allow your people to farm those lands.

Ep 9 preview: Thorne vs. Jon stare competition - Will Thorne let them
through the tunnel?


The episode 9 preview shows Jon, Tormund and the wildlings approaching the
wall. It looks like the the entry of the tunnel at Castle Black, but from
the NORTH side. Then there is a shot of Alliser thorne, standing up on the
wall, looking down on them, Jon and the wildlings looking up. Then quick
shots of Jon's and Alliser's faces.

This suggests a conflict between Jon and Alliser Thorne about whether or not
Thorne will let them all through the tunnel.

The one and only castle at the Wall: "Castle-Black-Watch by the Sea"?

What's going on here? Does the show assume, that Jon landed with the ships
at some wildling harbor just north of Castle Black? And would Stannis have
parked his precious fleet at a wildling harbor north of the Wall?

In Ep 5 Jon promised to Stannis, he would bring his ships back after the
Hardhome mission.

Stannis: I hope you know what you're doing with these wildings. I need those ships.
Jon: You'll get them back. I swear it.


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Yeah call it show logic. They thought it would be cool to have that tension at the gate at Castle Black when Jon returns with the Wildlings, so they add it to the show. Never mind logic or consistency.



Eastwatch does exist in the show, see http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Eastwatch-by-the-Sea


In every season except season 4 Eastwatch was mentioned.



I understand that television is a different medium than a book but they just keep adding stuff for the drama/shock value/sex without considering whether it would even be possible/logical/consistent in show!Westeros.


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There's a gate at Castle Black, so they could have had a similar dramatic moment on the Southern side.

But...but... if they were already on the southern side of the Wall they'd have no Drama! as they'd already be where they want to be.

Drama! >>>>>>>> Logic

I honestly don't know why GRRM spends such a long time fussing over important details when he can just bend everything for the sake of Drama!

Alliser: "What the 'ell are ya doin' on that side ya pillock! You were on a ship, you could o' gone 'round the Wall!"

Jon: "Don't you know what drama! is Ser Alliser? It'll be far more interestin' if you and I 'ave a good stare down 'ere before you let us through"

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In the books there was a lot of tension as the wildlings were allowed through the wall at Castle Black. The show cut that out and had the wildlings captured and held instead so there was no voluntary walkthrough. This is a pretty important moment for both the wildlings and the Night's Watch as they swallow their pride and accept each other.



It is useful to really highlight the awkwardness of the situation and the lack of trust on both sides, with only really Jon holding it all together.I get that the geography is off but the scene itself would be a really good set up for FTW, clearly setting up pro and anti wildling factions within the Night's Watch for the benefit of the viewers.


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In the books there was a lot of tension as the wildlings were allowed through the wall at Castle Black. The show cut that out and had the wildlings captured and held instead so there was no voluntary walkthrough. This is a pretty important moment for both the wildlings and the Night's Watch as they swallow their pride and accept each other.

It is useful to really highlight the awkwardness of the situation and the lack of trust on both sides, with only really Jon holding it all together.I get that the geography is off but the scene itself would be a really good set up for FTW, clearly setting up pro and anti wildling factions within the Night's Watch for the benefit of the viewers.

  • This might give us hope that they don't reduce FTW to "Ollie's revenge".

But in the end FTW wasn't primarily about the wildlings. The Nights Watch already grudgingly accepted them. And in the books Jon didn't just let them through - he demanded hostages and payment (gemstones, jewelry and such things). But at Hardhome he didn't make any conditions other than that the wildlings swear to fight with the Nights Watch against the White Walkers.

"the geography is off": now that I think about it - you don't have to be a book nerd and look at the westeros map to recognize the problem with the geography. As long as they are north of the wall they are in White Walker territory! If they arrive north of the wall they must have travelled through White Walker territory to get there. How could they do this without being attacked again by the White Walkers? Are the White Walkers just lazy?

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I think this a real problem for the show.



As Jon originally undertook this mission it made sense to me to bring the Wildlings through the tunnel rather than around the wall. Jon was expecting many more wildlings such that multiple trips to Hardhome would be necessary. It would make sense therefore to drop them off on the North side of the wall, and they could begin their trek to the Castle Black tunnel, lest they just run amok and raid while Jon went back to get more people. Also having them come through the tunnel allows the Nights Watch more control over the wildlings (who outnumber the NW considerably). The NW could then require them to throw down their weapons before coming through.



Now, however most of the wildlings are dead and the survivors are mostly women and children. I cannot think of a strategic reason not to bring them to the south side of the wall.


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I think this is supposed to mirror the entry of the wildlings from the stockade in the books. Nonetheless, just turning a bunch of wildlings loose south of EWBTS seems more dangerous than crossing along the north side of the wall. They need to be resettled in some organized way. Also, the storm hitting winterfell/lack of passable roads south of the wall makes travel along the north side necessary... Finally, we've seen that the tunnel at CB can fit a giant, maybe they need to cross there for Wun Wun... Lots of reasonable ways to explain this away.

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  • This might give us hope that they don't reduce FTW to "Ollie's revenge".

Yeah but how could it make any sense as a mutiny? The only argument for a mutiny would be Jon's decision to let the Wildlings south of the wall. All the other reasons that support a mutiny in the book are gone in the show (Val, Mance, Jon warging, Cregan, etc.). Maybe some will doubt Jon's decision but then they'll start hearing all the rumors about the Night's King, Jon's stareoff, Jon killing a White Walker, the threat of the Others etc. etc. and most of their doubts should be gone.

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Yeah but how could it make any sense as a mutiny? The only argument for a mutiny would be Jon's decision to let the Wildlings south of the wall. All the other reasons that support a mutiny in the book are gone in the show (Val, Mance, Jon warging, Cregan, etc.). Maybe some will doubt Jon's decision but then they'll start hearing all the rumors about the Night's King, Jon's stareoff, Jon killing a White Walker, the threat of the Others etc. etc. and most of their doubts should be gone.

I don't think any of the guys left at the wall have any reason to believe them. "this is just some wilding story to get them to go through the wall!!"

also i don't feel like val mance warging and etc.. had much to do with the "mutiny" of three guys i am not sure it is bigger than that right now.

If jon finds out about sansa and etc... it would be a lot like the books if he decides to save her

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I don't think any of the guys left at the wall have any reason to believe them. "this is just some wilding story to get them to go through the wall!!"

also i don't feel like val mance warging and etc.. had much to do with the "mutiny" of three guys i am not sure it is bigger than that right now.

If jon finds out about sansa and etc... it would be a lot like the books if he decides to save her

The point is that in the books they have quite a lot of reasons to doubt Jon (those aren't in the show). I've posted this in other threads before but I'll sum it up again:

- They know Jon is a warg. Most people are suspicious/afraid of wargs and this strengthens Jon's connection to the Wildlings.

- Most believe Val is Jon's wife and it is heavily hinted that Jon has unknowingly stolen/claimed her. This again strengthens Jon's connection to the Wildlings and to the men of the Night's Watch it seems as if he's still breaking his vows.

- They discovered that Jon lied to everyone and saved Mance's life (after the letter), thereby breaking his vows.

These three points alone give plenty of evidence that Jon is more of a Wildling than a man of the Night's Watch and has repeatedly broken his vows even after returning to Castle Black. In the show, none of these points holds true.

Then in the books Jon is also quite invested in politics, marries Alys Karstark to a Wildling, imprisons Cregan Karstark etc. while in the books Stannis left almost immediately, Melisandre is not even at the wall and other than that Jon has stayed out of politics. Plus, in the books Hardhome is mostly speculation while in the show a dozen men of the Night's Watch have now seen for themselves what the real threat is. And show!Jon is a fantastic fighter while book!Jon is more of a commander than a fighter. I don't believe they will simply dismiss all the rumors from Hardhome, plus then we're just desperately trying to find excuses to explain D&D's flawed writing. The events from Hardhome would likely be told in such detail by a dozen men of the Night's Watch and the Wildlings that I don't see why Thorne/Olly wouldn't believe it.

Take all of this plus the lack of any foreshadowing (no 'daggers in the dark' from melisandre, Ghost warging etc.) and the show has pretty much thrown logic straight out of the window. I'll reserve final judgement until I've seen Episode 10 but there's only so much you can fix in 2 episodes.

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The point is that in the books they have quite a lot of reasons to doubt Jon (those aren't in the show). I've posted this in other threads before but I'll sum it up again:

- They know Jon is a warg. Most people are suspicious/afraid of wargs and this strengthens Jon's connection to the Wildlings.

- Most believe Val is Jon's wife and it is heavily hinted that Jon has unknowingly stolen/claimed her. This again strengthens Jon's connection to the Wildlings and to the men of the Night's Watch it seems as if he's still breaking his vows.

- They discovered that Jon lied to everyone and saved Mance's life (after the letter), thereby breaking his vows.

These three points alone give plenty of evidence that Jon is more of a Wildling than a man of the Night's Watch and has repeatedly broken his vows even after returning to Castle Black. In the show, none of these points holds true.

Then in the books Jon is also quite invested in politics, marries Alys Karstark to a Wildling, imprisons Cregan Karstark etc. while in the books Stannis left almost immediately, Melisandre is not even at the wall and other than that Jon has stayed out of politics. Plus, in the books Hardhome is mostly speculation while in the show a dozen men of the Night's Watch have now seen for themselves what the real threat is. And show!Jon is a fantastic fighter while book!Jon is more of a commander than a fighter. I don't believe they will simply dismiss all the rumors from Hardhome, plus then we're just desperately trying to find excuses to explain D&D's flawed writing. The events from Hardhome would likely be told in such detail by a dozen men of the Night's Watch and the Wildlings that I don't see why Thorne/Olly wouldn't believe it.

Take all of this plus the lack of any foreshadowing (no 'daggers in the dark' from melisandre, Ghost warging etc.) and the show has pretty much thrown logic straight out of the window. I'll reserve final judgement until I've seen Episode 10 but there's only so much you can fix in 2 episodes.

Val: Val to me is unnessary as the whole "he loves wildings" keeps coming up. They know he got romantic and he has never denied it in the show. so the val thing if it was a big deals to them (i don't think it was really so as he was like let wildings through he was going to get betrayed logic be damned.) it has been replaced.

Warging: i don't think they believe in wargs at all why would they believe he is one?

letter: is minor be itself for course he lets wildling through and they are going to hate him. i think in the show he is going to get a letter from sansa and then he will try to save her and get attacked.

also the wilding cannot be trusted according to a lot of the NW. nothing they say matters jon also took men loyal to him on this trip north cannot trust those wilding lovers. Don't underestimate people's capacity for self deception.

ALSO they have a TON of foreshadowing for the scene the question for people who watch the show is not if something will happen but what

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what will annoy me is Alliser and Jon having a conversation from the top to the bottom of the 700 foot high wall

Just like Dany and her magic microphone when she was adressing the people of mereen outside the walls. ;)

Jon's scenes have been good so far but I'm worried about FTW. I don't think we are getting a pink letter in the show, instead it looks like Davos asking Jon for reinforcements. I really hope not. Why would Jon break his vows for Stannis when he never even did it for Robb? The Pink letter gave him 2 understandable reasons for breaking his vows 1) the NW was under threat by the Bolton's and 2) he wanted to save his little sister. He hasn't even broken his vows for someone he loves but nope, he would break them for Stannis....? Please, no!

(It also looks bad based on the 'speculation' about Stannis in episode 9)

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