David Selig Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The real answer is that D&D think most watchers are morons who won't notice and sadly are probably right about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Federico Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I agree with just about every post in this thread criticizing the scene selected by the OP, except for the one about Tyrene's boobies...there's always a good reason to release those hounds.As soon as I realized Jon was leading the Free Folk through the north entrance of the Wall at CB, I tried to think of an explanation or remedy. My answer: Jon learned from the Free Folk from Hardhome that there were 1000's of Free Folk survivors that refused to go to Hardhome (haunted, whatever) that were scattered all along the wall. If Jon and Tormund sent 50 men to try to gather them and extend Jon's offer, it might take months, which they may not have. So, a 1000 or so, could gather the stragglers much, much faster and more convincingly. Now, this would beg difficult but surmountable questions about logistics. But, why would Karsi's daughters be on the expedition instead of routed through EW? Finding the right shaped bandaid...Fed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerGuppy Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 The real answer is that D&D think most watchers are morons who won't notice and sadly are probably right about that. I just finished reading the books, and yet I did not mind that moment. An author can make anything happen in his world and all it costs him is the effort of typing - remaining true to a fictional geography is just a matter of diligence. D&D have to operate under the restrictions of budget, time, and all the other problems that reality brings. Because of this it is very hard to transport a drama from a novel (especially a thousand page one) to film. Many, many corners have to be cut and things will change. That is inevitable. What I am looking for is to see some of the main themes I like in the novel realized, maybe have some character moments transported (though characters are less important to me than ideas/themes). I really understand and appreciate why Hardhome was necessary, or at least logical for dramatic purposes. And going from Hardhome, in order to keep the drama flowing, a scene at the wall makes sense to keep the story on track emotionally. This to me is more important than geography. So what if there is no Eastwatch? What does that change about the general idea and flow of the drama? I'd hate for the show to sacrifice emotion to geographical accuracy. I guess that makes me a moron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerGuppy Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow282 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Because Jon didn't want to let thousands of Wildlings land at the same time behind the Wall when he can easily control them as a slow, significantly safer and easier to manage line of people trickling into his backyard. But I can understand how that completely reasonable explanation didn't come to you. It took 2-3 whole seconds of idle thought, after all. You guys ever find it weird how many of you constantly whine about how the show thinks all it's viewers are stupid and then immediately turn around and complain about how everything wasn't explicitly spelled out for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordi Nietos Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Because Jon didn't want to let thousands of Wildlings land at the same time behind the Wall when he can easily control them as a slow, significantly safer and easier to manage line of people trickling into his backyard. But I can understand how that completely reasonable explanation didn't come to you. It took 2-3 whole seconds of idle thought, after all. You guys ever find it weird how many of you constantly whine about how the show thinks all it's viewers are stupid and then immediately turn around and complain about how everything wasn't explicitly spelled out for you? I guess the White Walkers and wights just disappeared then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordi Nietos Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 In the books there was a lot of tension as the wildlings were allowed through the wall at Castle Black. The show cut that out and had the wildlings captured and held instead so there was no voluntary walkthrough. This is a pretty important moment for both the wildlings and the Night's Watch as they swallow their pride and accept each other. It is useful to really highlight the awkwardness of the situation and the lack of trust on both sides, with only really Jon holding it all together.I get that the geography is off but the scene itself would be a really good set up for FTW, clearly setting up pro and anti wildling factions within the Night's Watch for the benefit of the viewers. They could have made it consistent AND have the drama by making Hardhome landlocked and eliminate the ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I just finished reading the books, and yet I did not mind that moment. An author can make anything happen in his world and all it costs him is the effort of typing - remaining true to a fictional geography is just a matter of diligence. D&D have to operate under the restrictions of budget, time, and all the other problems that reality brings. Because of this it is very hard to transport a drama from a novel (especially a thousand page one) to film. Many, many corners have to be cut and things will change. That is inevitable. What I am looking for is to see some of the main themes I like in the novel realized, maybe have some character moments transported (though characters are less important to me than ideas/themes). I really understand and appreciate why Hardhome was necessary, or at least logical for dramatic purposes. And going from Hardhome, in order to keep the drama flowing, a scene at the wall makes sense to keep the story on track emotionally. This to me is more important than geography. So what if there is no Eastwatch? What does that change about the general idea and flow of the drama? I'd hate for the show to sacrifice emotion to geographical accuracy. I guess that makes me a moron They didn't have to show Eastwatch at all. But coming from the North side instead of landing south of the Wall and then going to Castle Black doesn't make sense when the Others are chasing you and the Wall is the only reliable protection you have. Because Jon didn't want to let thousands of Wildlings land at the same time behind the Wall when he can easily control them as a slow, significantly safer and easier to manage line of people trickling into his backyard. Except that, you know, he didn't control them at all when they were passing through the gate, so that's not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemiNymph Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I was quite annoyed at this scene as well. Then I realised the show had decided to disregard geography and then I just went, "ah fuck it.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philpenn Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 My answer: Jon learned from the Free Folk from Hardhome that there were 1000's of Free Folk survivors that refused to go to Hardhome (haunted, whatever) that were scattered all along the wall. If Jon and Tormund sent 50 men to try to gather them and extend Jon's offer, it might take months, which they may not have. So, a 1000 or so, could gather the stragglers much, much faster and more convincingly.Works for me. Tormund did say most were at Hardhome, not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eunuch Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 You guys ever find it weird how many of you constantly whine about how the show thinks all it's viewers are stupid and then immediately turn around and complain about how everything wasn't explicitly spelled out for you? Well said! Actually, if you look at a map of the North, you'll see that it's shorter to land North of the wall than South. And Stannis also came from North of the wall, now who wants to call GRRM stupid? I guess the White Walkers and wights just disappeared then. The White Walkers were at Hardhome with their whole army, remember? Do you think they are faster than boats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of Cinder Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Well said! Actually, if you look at a map of the North, you'll see that it's shorter to land North of the wall than South. And Stannis also came from North of the wall, now who wants to call GRRM stupid? The White Walkers were at Hardhome with their whole army, remember? Do you think they are faster than boats? 1: Shorter? Yes, the distance they have to sail is shorter, but the walking distances are hardly short enough to justify walking on the side of The Wall where they could at any moment be attacked by the White Walkers and the wights. Here's a fantastic illustration of the approximate journey's they'd have to take: http://i.imgur.com/itffkdG.jpg 2: I may be pulling this out of my ass, but Stannis had no place to land his ships on the north side, so I'm pretty sure he landed his army by Eastwatch and got through The Wall there. In that case it would have made zero sense to have him ride to Castle Black at first, and then cram his entire army through the gate when his plan was to attack the wildlings by surprise. And at the moment in the books and the show the White Walkers hadn't really done anything to scare his army from traveling on that side of The Wall. So, if this is the case, GRRM is not stupid, he knows what he's doing when it comes to Stannis's attack. I am not saying that he doesn't do mistakes, he does plenty, but the mistakes the show is doing are just so strange. 3: The White Walkers have horses and rabid wights that can run for an eternity and jump off a cliff like a bunch of lemmings with no regard for their own safety. The ships may be able to sail faster, but once on land they're going to move at a snail's pace. They've got children, elderly and no mounts. So it's safe to assume they'll be walking for a long time, plenty of time for the wight army to catch up with them and completely decimate them. And even if it's not likely to happen, it's still an insanely stupid risk to take JUST after having witnessed how dangerous these things are. It's a terrible choice, whatever contrived pros walking on the north side has. 4: What if Jon died? Or what if the men of the Watch decided to mutiny when he's at the gate and not let them through? That would be it. If Jon would have been able to avoid a situation like that, he should have done it and sailed to the south side of the fucking Wall! 5: And if the writers had a reason for having them come from the north side, they should have established something to make it seem logical, at least mentioned it in passing. The reason could have been dumb as shit, but at least they'd be showing us that they have a reason, that they've thought about it! But I doubt it so hard. Time and time again they've shown complete ignorance of the geography, of traveling times and many, many other things a 10 year old with half a brain would question. Now, things like these don't ruin the show by themselves. Far from it. But lately a worrying pattern has been established, and it makes me fear that D&D really have no idea what they're doing. It's as if they're only interested in the what. What happens? Not the why, not the how or when or who. What's important to them is the bare bones of the plot. The themes and character motivations and internal logic be damned. Edit: And neither Jon nor we have any idea if that is the only group of White Walkers and wights. It probably is, but there is no guarantee. There could very well be other groups roaming the Haunted Forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 He's my convoluted mental gymnastics fan-theory attempt at defending crappy screenwriting. Jon landed the wildlings north of the wall because he is knows that Zombie Benjen has snuck in with his camp and is planning to kill everyone with magic granted to him by the WW. But we'll have to wait to the end to see. We can't judge the show until the end you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSleeze Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 This might have already been mentioned, but their is a good reason why the wildlings had to enter North of the Wall. If they were dropped off South of the Wall they could just keep going South and settle the land. Maybe they would stick to their word and still head to Castle Black, but other than Jon, the rest of the Night's Watch doesn't trust them. So the Night's Watch has them enter through the North Gate so they have to enter Castle Black and be under the watch of the Crows. They could have easily added a line from Alliser or Stannis saying something like, "When you return with the wildlings, you return through the North Gate. I don't want the wildlings fleeing if they reach land south of the Wall." Would have explained it quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 This might have already been mentioned, but their is a good reason why the wildlings had to enter North of the Wall. If they were dropped off South of the Wall they could just keep going South and settle the land. Which is exactly the reason they were coming south in the first place, not something the NW were trying to prevent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I found it annouying, but dont really care. I had hoped for Jon to tel sam that a storm broke all his ships and thats why they came from the North, but all in all it doesnt really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I found it annouying, but dont really care. I had hoped for Jon to tel sam that a storm broke all his ships and thats why they came from the North, but all in all it doesnt really matter. Just one more plot hole on the pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polythenehigh Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Anyone else notice that he offered to let the wildlings farm the gift as part of his plot to lure them onto the ships..? did no one notice that winter is upon us and there is no way they will have a chance to have a harvest before its full grip hits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of Cinder Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Anyone else notice that he offered to let the wildlings farm the gift as part of his plot to lure them onto the ships..? did no one notice that winter is upon us and there is no way they will have a chance to have a harvest before its full grip hits? My God! Not only have we discovered how incompetent Jon is by risking everyone's lives, but we've also discovered that the wildlings are idiots! Just a question (both book and series related): How is there enough food for the wildlings if winter is truly coming? Did Martin ever explain this? I cannot remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of Cinder Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 That awkward moment when you quote your post when trying to edit it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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