Lord Wraith Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, we're on denial. The ones who are actually talking about five books and an author that, despite his mistakes, knows consistency, characterization, development and narrative are in denial, but not those who keep defending the work of two guys who have clearly said "we don't care about themes. We don't want logic, things happen because we want them to happen". :agree: D&D make me :bang: don't you think that he is placing Myrcella and Trystane in the right place to 'claim' the crown if something happens to Tommen? or perhaps Trystane and Doran's plan is to set aside Myrcella as soon as Daenerys reaches Westeros, and they are only using the poor girl. I was want to know what the plan is. Doran must have a plan... I hope. I reserve the right to criticize any decision GRRM makes as well. Since book Stannis is far more sympathetic that his show counterpart, deciding to burn Shireen would be even more out of character... and poor storytelling. Shireen is getting burned, no argument there, but I doubt Stannis has anything to do with it. Yes its like show Cersei just gives the High Sparrow everything for no reason. Book Cersei at least got 1 million dragons out of it. Show Cersei gives away crown authority to be b**ch to her inlaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Didnot watch the episode yet. Just came to notify my change of Member Title.How's that Jon will marry Shireen prediction working out for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What they show in the episodes itself is up for the audience to take and leave it, whether it will or will not happen. But telling it in promotional information is a new kind of low. Why? We don't know exactly what rights they brought - and regardless, they never said the scene will be in TWoW, they said 'when GRRM told them'. GRRM may not include it in TWoW, GRRM may have been working towards a different ending since he sold the ending he previously had planned to HBO, explaining why so many plots seem to be diverging this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I reserve the right to criticize any decision GRRM makes as well. Since book Stannis is far more sympathetic that his show counterpart, deciding to burn Shireen would be even more out of character... and poor storytelling. Shireen is getting burned, no argument there, but I doubt Stannis has anything to do with it.I keep seeing people say this, but on what planet is book Stannis more sympathetic than show Stannis? Seriously? Show Stannis was a much more caring and involved father right up until this point, and book Stannis allowed burning after burning after burning, show Stannis hasn't really been too keen on the idea until recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 D&D's character assasination of Tyrion and Jaime these past 2 seasons is waaaaaaaaay more egregious and infuriating than what they have done to Stannis. That depends. For those who are fans of Stannis and don't mind Tyrion, then what happened to Stannis is worst. The thing is, that with ASOIAF being about characters who are not only so grey but that their fandoms are very militant and apart, opinions are very diverse. Like, Stannis is not just either a villain or a hero in the books. You have quite different opinions about it. So, those who think he's a villain think this characterization in the show is accurate. I'm quite sure they're celebrating this, like many are celebrating the butchery of Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Oh wow Stannis haters crawling out of the woodwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 LOL the show apologism is getting really ridiculous. If D&D are right about GRRM telling them about Shireen burning, it may be the first instance where they have not only butchered the story, but also spoiled something fro mTWOW. My guess is that in TWOW, Melisandre will burn Shireen to resurrect Jon. She may have finally realized that Stannis is not Azor Ahai and start seeing Jon as AA. And the readers will get something they really wanted to happen - Jon lives again - but at the expense of something as terrible as an innocent young girl's terrible death. It would be the kind of horrible sacrifice that makes sense "for the greater good", in terms of Jon's role in the fight against the Others, as in the story of Nissa Nissa. And imagine how terrible Jon would feel when he learned how he was resurrected. That would be tragic, and epic, and morally ambiguous. This is just shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I keep seeing people say this, but on what planet is book Stannis more sympathetic than show Stannis? Seriously? Show Stannis was a much more caring and involved father right up until this point, and book Stannis allowed burning after burning after burning, show Stannis hasn't really been too keen on the idea until recently. Steven Atwell puts it in better terms than I ever could over at his blog on Race for the Iron Throne. It boils down to Stannis' "putting the cart before the horse" speech; an idea of monarchy that only exists to protect the people in a contract Thomas Hobbes would be proud of, with the White Walkers as excellent stand ins for the hideous "State of Nature" that a political leviathan helps us avoid. And unlike show Stannis, book Stannis does show the capacity to bend, proving Donal Noye's assessment of him false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 LOL the show apologism is getting really ridiculous. If D&D are right about GRRM telling them about Shireen burning, it may be the first instance where they have not only butchered the story, but also spoiled something fro mTWOW. My guess is that in TWOW, Melisandre will burn Shireen to resurrect Jon. She may have finally realized that Stannis is not Azor Ahai and start seeing Jon as AA. And the readers will get something they really wanted to happen - Jon lives again - but at the expense of something as terrible as an innocent young girl's terrible death. It would be the kind of horrible sacrifice that makes sense "for the greater good", in terms of Jon's role in the fight against the Others, as in the story of Nissa Nissa. And imagine how terrible Jon would feel when he learned how he was resurrected. That would be tragic, and epic, and morally ambiguous. This is just shit. That would also put Stannis against Jon, in a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 No kidding. Nearly everyone claiming that they're not angry that Shireen burned, just how it happened, would be grandstanding about the fact of child burning itself and how it's unconscionable and irredeemable to happen at all and Ding and Dong, had this Behind the Episode clip not leaked. The usual tiresome folk who write screechy essays after each episode would probably have devoted several paragraphs sermonizing about how child murder should never be on TV and other manufactured outrage. Now that this clip has leaked, they're so obviously recalibrating. I have my own criticisms of this season but boy is it hard sometimes when voicing them would put me in their company. I do think this deserved much more of a buildup, because the comparison between Stannis in Storm's End and here isn't without merit. The show devoted several episodes of NW giving Jon the stinkeye for buildup to FTW, something similar would have been ideal here. Stannis isn't as major a character as Jon so it could never have been equal, but more than one episode of buildup was needed. The decision seemed too hasty. And I agree that Balon should have died before this. They've been building this up since at least season 3, not sure what show you're watching. Just this season we've had several hints at it from Mel not to mention openly debating the merits of it on several occasions, plus Stannis's speech about her greyscale to build us up before the fall. They built it up plenty, you're just looking for things to criticize because your in denial still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Exactly. Unless Stannis himself was dead, nobody would touch Shireen without his approval. Stannis has been going down this same road in the books, and he will order her burning in the books, I am sure. The people of the Wall DO think Stannis is dead. The last thing Stannis did before going into battle was try to ensure Shireen's postive future. Now a battle is about to break about between the NW and wildlings with the Queen's men stuck in the middle. It's one thing to think book Stannis might be capable of this if put in the same circumstances. Another that he's miraculously gonna do it in Winds despite GRRM made it logistically nigh impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris999 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfLScJVXBHQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1m33s Confirmed. DnD are not out to get book readers or Stannis fans. If you're gravely upset at the fate of Shireen, be mad at George. Im disgusted by it. Stannis was arguably my favorite character. I just cant... I thought he would listen to Davos. i cant believe it, I reall hope that GRRM doesnt do this in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It's geographically impossible for Stannis to burn Shireen. Or even send a letter to inform them they should burn Shireen. Jeez, in the books, Westeros isn't populated by wormholes that can transport people to the speed of plot. Also, we're not mad at the burning of Shireen because Shireen is not a real person. She's a character whose existence serves a plot, the plot of her father and his actions. His characterization has been so far, constant in the books. Even his outbursts of hypocrisy are constant, for God's sake. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Steven Atwell puts it in better terms than I ever could over at his blog on Race for the Iron Throne. It boils down to Stannis' "putting the cart before the horse" speech; an idea of monarchy that only exists to protect the people in a contract Thomas Hobbes would be proud of, with the White Walkers as excellent stand ins for the hideous "State of Nature" that a political leviathan helps us avoid. And unlike show Stannis, book Stannis does show the capacity to bend, proving Donal Noye's assessment of him false. Stannis's stated reasons for wanting the throne only make him more sympathetic if you actually believe those sentiments are genuine, personally I never have. He's had multiple opportunities to put the good of the realm before his own regal ambition and everytime (except maybe going to the wall, though i'd argue even that was pretty self-serving too) he's chosen the path where he keeps trying to be king no matter what the consequences are for anyone else. He says he never wanted this, but he's a liar. Also, while I really don't want to go down the rabbit hole on this AGAIN, I find the evidence that Stannis has ever bent in any meaningful way to be dubious at best. Most of the things people point to are simply Stannis listening to advice he asked for, which is clearly not what Donal Noye was talking about, nor any of the other multiple characters who have referred to Stannis as being like iron. Noye was talking about Stannis being stubborn to the point of self-destruction, which he clearly is, and this scene was a perfect example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It's geographically impossible for Stannis to burn Shireen. Or even send a letter to inform them they should burn Shireen. Jeez, in the books, Westeros isn't populated by wormholes that can transport people to the speed of plot. Also, we're not mad at the burning of Shireen because Shireen is not a real person. She's a character whose existence serves a plot, the plot of her father and his actions. His characterization has been so far, constant in the books. Even his outbursts of hypocrisy are constant, for God's sake. :dunno: We have still 2 books 1000 pages each for changing geographical locations, context, opinions, urgency situations.. I would say it's a bit premature to reach any conclusion. It's realistic to think that in the Show they might have changed some parts of it, but that doesn't mean we can tell with any certainty what GRRM was going to do in the books. GRRM knows his characters better than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Survivor92 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, they've been building up Shireen's death, but the problem lies in the execution (pun). In the show, we get five seconds of tents randomly burning (at the same time!), then suddenly Shireen needs to die. From the promo of E10 it seems to have gotten them better weather and allowed them to march to Winterfell. There's no real tension (just screaming and SHOCK FACTOR), no big dilemma, nothing. If Shireen is sacrificed by Stannis in the books, I expect (giving GRRM's competency as a writer) that there'll be a much better explanation for it. Maybe the White Walkers are almost upon them or maybe they're surrounded and ambushed by Bolton forces. Then Stannis can choose to do nothing and Shireen (plus everyone else) will get killed. Or he can burn her and save the lives of everyone else. The fact that GRRM told D&D means nothing. He probably told them that Shireen will be sacrificed in the books (which could still mean that Melisandre does it) and D&D went for the cheap shock factor. As others have pointed out, logistically it's impossible for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen in a short time span so he'll either not be involved or the circumstances will be totally different from the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teemo Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I didn't watch the episode because I'm like 4 behind and hate it, but can someone just tell me what happened and if this means it's going to happen in the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 They've been building this up since at least season 3, not sure what show you're watching. Just this season we've had several hints at it from Mel not to mention openly debating the merits of it on several occasions, plus Stannis's speech about her greyscale to build us up before the fall. They built it up plenty, you're just looking for things to criticize because your in denial still.Building up to it doesn't make it good writing. If X predicts Y will jump off the empire state building at the beginning of a movie and bring it up multiple times during the movie, but Y has no intention of ever doing so, but suddenly 90 minutes into the movie he inexplicably climb the ESB and then jump off. It's still shitty writing. Just because the movie has been "building up" to that moment doesn't make it good writing. In the end, Y needs a good reason to do what he doesn't regardless of what X predicts. You seem to come from the D&D school of writing where foreshadowing=characterization+motivation. They aren't the same thing and one does not replace the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris999 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think Dany will burn Stannis and Melisandre, a fitting end for them. If you are referring to the show then yes. But this is hard to swallow if it turns out to be book cannon. Especially hard for a Stannis fan... But us Stannis fans I think always knew that our king was going to go off the deep end because of Melessandre. Book Stannis would not do this. He is harsh, but he is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannistician Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 LOL the show apologism is getting really ridiculous. If D&D are right about GRRM telling them about Shireen burning, it may be the first instance where they have not only butchered the story, but also spoiled something fro mTWOW. My guess is that in TWOW, Melisandre will burn Shireen to resurrect Jon. She may have finally realized that Stannis is not Azor Ahai and start seeing Jon as AA. And the readers will get something they really wanted to happen - Jon lives again - but at the expense of something as terrible as an innocent young girl's terrible death. It would be the kind of horrible sacrifice that makes sense "for the greater good", in terms of Jon's role in the fight against the Others, as in the story of Nissa Nissa. And imagine how terrible Jon would feel when he learned how he was resurrected. That would be tragic, and epic, and morally ambiguous. This is just shit. I think this is why D & D placed Shireen's burning before FTW. Like Tyrion, they don't want Jon's arc to have any moral ambiguity to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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