Seaworth'sShipmate Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I used to think Robert was, if not a good guy, at least an OK guy who wanted to be good. I don't think that anymore. While he's not deliberately evil and spiteful, he was still a pretty bad person. Worse than Jaime, Tyrion, and the Hound, Imo, all three pretty grey characters. Why do I think this? Several reasons: 1. He approved killing the Targaryen kids. I doubt for practical reasons, like they'd take the throne away some day, but because he just hated the family as a whole. He thought it was fantastic that Aegon and Rhaneys were killed, and the fact that Stannis let Viserys and Dany get away is the reason Stannis never held Storm's End. 2. He was very selfish and uncaring with his mistresses. I don't generally condemn people for their consensual sexual activity, but I do if said activity repeatedly creates children who you don't support. He only supported Edric because he had to, and never made an effort to visit with him, or let him know who his father is. Robert's defenders say that Cersei would kill his kids if he did that, and maybe so. But I'd have to think at some level he didn't really care, and rather would look for another pretty maiden and horn of ale. 3. Was selfish and uncaring family man. I know Cersei would be a pain to be married to, and Joffrey would be an awful kid to have to raise. Yet Robert should have tried to actually parent Joffrey and express an interest in him as the future king, even if he did not like him. 4. My biggest complaint though, is that for 12-15 years Robert Baratheon was the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms, but as near as I can tell, never used that power for good. There was really so much to do and reform in Westeros, but he was just fine drinking and slobbering around. Though he was the more powerful half of the marriage, he allowed Cersei to use Lannister soldiers/ relatives for most of the royal positions (guards, squires etc.) I honestly could go on and on about Bobby B. The only reason I think I ever thought of him as a good guy, was because he was Honorable Ned's best friend, and freed Westeros from the mad king. The more I think though, the more I struggle to find anything really redeemable about him. He's basically a developmentally stunted, frat boy. Miley Cyrus would be proud of him. Does anyone disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The silver dragon Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I used to think Robert was, if not a good guy, at least an OK guy who wanted to be good. I don't think that anymore. While he's not deliberately evil and spiteful, he was still a pretty bad person. Worse than Jaime, Tyrion, and the Hound, Imo, all three pretty grey characters. Why do I think this? Several reasons: 1. He approved killing the Targaryen kids. I doubt for practical reasons, like they'd take the throne away some day, but because he just hated the family as a whole. He thought it was fantastic that Aegon and Rhaneys were killed, and the fact that Stannis let Viserys and Dany get away is the reason Stannis never held Storm's End. 2. He was very selfish and uncaring with his mistresses. I don't generally condemn people for their consensual sexual activity, but I do if said activity repeatedly creates children who you don't support. He only supported Edric because he had to, and never made an effort to visit with him, or let him know who his father is. Robert's defenders say that Cersei would kill his kids if he did that, and maybe so. But I'd have to think at some level he didn't really care, and rather would look for another pretty maiden and horn of ale. 3. Was selfish and uncaring family man. I know Cersei would be a pain to be married to, and Joffrey would be an awful kid to have to raise. Yet Robert should have tried to actually parent Joffrey and express an interest in him as the future king, even if he did not like him. 4. My biggest complaint though, is that for 12-15 years Robert Baratheon was the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms, but as near as I can tell, never used that power for good. There was really so much to do and reform in Westeros, but he was just fine drinking and slobbering around. Though he was the more powerful half of the marriage, he allowed Cersei to use Lannister soldiers/ relatives for most of the royal positions (guards, squires etc.) I honestly could go on and on about Bobby B. The only reason I think I ever thought of him as a good guy, was because he was Honorable Ned's best friend, and freed Westeros from the mad king. The more I think though, the more I struggle to find anything really redeemable about him. He's basically a developmentally stunted, frat boy. Miley Cyrus would be proud of him. Does anyone disagree? :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Most Baratheons are apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narea Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 2. He was very selfish and uncaring with his mistresses. I don't generally condemn people for their consensual sexual activity, but I do if said activity repeatedly creates children who you don't support. He only supported Edric because he had to, and never made an effort to visit with him, or let him know who his father is. Robert's defenders say that Cersei would kill his kids if he did that, and maybe so. But I'd have to think at some level he didn't really care, and rather would look for another pretty maiden and horn of ale. 3. Was selfish and uncaring family man. I know Cersei would be a pain to be married to, and Joffrey would be an awful kid to have to raise. Yet Robert should have tried to actually parent Joffrey and express an interest in him as the future king, even if he did not like him. I think you are being too kind to him there... He wasn't just uncaring he was outright abusive towards his children and wife(you know, the royal family and the queen). As such I doubt much of his sexual conquests were truly consensual. After all, if he treated his highborn wife the way Robert treated Cersei, I doubt he was gentle or at least nonviolent with someone who did not have a great house standing behind them and no woman had really an option of refusing the king. Can you give can consent when you can't refuse? Another thing to remember is that he didn't support even Edric Storm. Rather, it was Jon Arryn. To be fair, Robert's children were better off not knowing him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I used to think Robert was, if not a good guy, at least an OK guy who wanted to be good. I don't think that anymore. While he's not deliberately evil and spiteful, he was still a pretty bad person. Worse than Jaime, Tyrion, and the Hound, Imo, all three pretty grey characters. Why do I think this? Several reasons: 1. He approved killing the Targaryen kids. I doubt for practical reasons, like they'd take the throne away some day, but because he just hated the family as a whole. He thought it was fantastic that Aegon and Rhaneys were killed, and the fact that Stannis let Viserys and Dany get away is the reason Stannis never held Storm's End. 2. He was very selfish and uncaring with his mistresses. I don't generally condemn people for their consensual sexual activity, but I do if said activity repeatedly creates children who you don't support. He only supported Edric because he had to, and never made an effort to visit with him, or let him know who his father is. Robert's defenders say that Cersei would kill his kids if he did that, and maybe so. But I'd have to think at some level he didn't really care, and rather would look for another pretty maiden and horn of ale. 3. Was selfish and uncaring family man. I know Cersei would be a pain to be married to, and Joffrey would be an awful kid to have to raise. Yet Robert should have tried to actually parent Joffrey and express an interest in him as the future king, even if he did not like him. 4. My biggest complaint though, is that for 12-15 years Robert Baratheon was the most powerful man in the 7 kingdoms, but as near as I can tell, never used that power for good. There was really so much to do and reform in Westeros, but he was just fine drinking and slobbering around. Though he was the more powerful half of the marriage, he allowed Cersei to use Lannister soldiers/ relatives for most of the royal positions (guards, squires etc.) I honestly could go on and on about Bobby B. The only reason I think I ever thought of him as a good guy, was because he was Honorable Ned's best friend, and freed Westeros from the mad king. The more I think though, the more I struggle to find anything really redeemable about him. He's basically a developmentally stunted, frat boy. Miley Cyrus would be proud of him. Does anyone disagree? There are no "good guys" or "bad guys," just complex characters with motivations. King Bob was a warrior. Kingship never suited him. His father figure ran the country while he took full advantage of his status and used it to drink and whore until he was killed by a pig with help from his wife's cousin/lover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shea Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 The more I think though, the more I struggle to find anything really redeemable about him. He's basically a developmentally stunted, frat boy. Miley Cyrus would be proud of him. Does anyone disagree? I think that's an insult to Miley Cyrus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Disagree about 1. He let Dany and Viserys run around unharmed for fifteen years after taking the throne, despite Pycelle and Varys, and later Renly and Littlefinger arguing in favour of their murder. Only when a practical reason appeared (unlikely a threat as it may have been) did he finally agree to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 At the risk of opening myself up to derision, I feel compelled to disagree. 1. First of all, Elia's children were dead before Robert even found out about Tywin's orders. And punishing Tywin would be impossible because of the Lannister army currently in the city, so Robert probably either felt it was no use to be upset over something that you can't do anything about. If Robert caught Ageon and Rhaenys himself, I do not think he would have killed them. In all likeliness, he would have sent them to the clergy. 2. There are only two bastards that Robert is confirmed to know the existence of. Both of those bastards. (Mya Stone and Edric Storm) are under the care of people Robert clearly trusts. As for the other bastards (Gendry, etc), Robert probably did not know they existed to begin with. And I doubt he would be modivated to seek them out himself after Cersei threatened Mya Stone's life. But I suspect he instructed Varys with seeing that his bastards are cared for, and Varys applied this to the ones Robert did not know about (such as Gendry). 3. Robert was Severly Depressed, he openly wishes he was dead. I doubt he could have done much of anything. It is possible that he simply gave up on life. 4. Those tournaments and feasts Robert held every week actually did help the kingdom in a way. The tournaments are free entertainment for the smallfolk, and a chance at glory for the aristocracy. The feasts ensure that the ruling nobility have to spend time in the same room and (theoretically) get along better. Robert was not enjoying life: he was downright miserable. He even told Eddard that he feels dead. I don't dislike Robert, I feel sympathy for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 He's also a rapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb_Warged Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 It might be the Baratheon brothers are generally kinda nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 He's also a rapist."There was nothing I could say, except the one unutterable fact that it wasn't true."This quote from The Great Gatsby sums up perfectly how I feel whenever I see someone call Robert a rapist. But I'm not going to say anything more about that, because I don't want this thread to go off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 "There was nothing I could say, except the one unutterable fact that it wasn't true."This quote from The Great Gatsby sums up perfectly how I feel whenever I see someone call Robert a rapist.But I'm not going to say anything more about that, because I don't want this thread to go off topic.Uh oh, we've got another "the woman was lying about getting raped, even though we read her thoughts" 'debate' incoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Well he wan't a great father. and was a horrible king, I understand Robert, just like I understand Cersei who was also a bad parent, and a worse ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadWo1f Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 He's also a rapist.Who did he rape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrell_like_Squirrel Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 ...And? Like, none of this is a surprise, it's all laid out pretty clearly. Robert is a terrible king, he's neglectful and boorish and you're right OP, he does almost nothing in his 15 year reign. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Robert is a great guy. But I think Robert is an interesting character, and if you only spell out his mistakes and failures, then you're doing a disservice to yourself and to the writing. Martin creates characters that can be utterly despicable AND heroic and sympathetic. That's pretty basic ASOIAF. Sure Robert is a neglectful King and father, a man who uses and abuses because he doesn't know how to deal with his own pain. Part of Martin's objective, apart from his pretty clear anti-war message, is to show that patriarchy hurts men as well as women. Robert feels trapped in a system which glorifies his abilities on the field and his great martial prowess, but does nothing to compensate for the emptiness he feels inside. He's committing slow suicide by drinking and whoring his way to an early grave. He's depressed with no way to deal with his emotions. Again, not an excuse for his actions, but the bad does not wash out the good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Who did he rape? Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadWo1f Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Cersei.Wasn't she his wife? And sorry if this sounds wrong, it just may be my lack of knowledge... But eh, didn't wife in those times belong to him? I don't remember correctly, I read the books some time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Wasn't she his wife? And sorry if this sounds wrong, it just may be my lack of knowledge... But eh, didn't wife in those times belong to him? I don't remember correctly, I read the books some time ago How is that question relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr's Little Finger Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 He is a man who deep down is a good man, but despite all his physical strength he is incredibly weak mentally. He was destroyed by his job and his marriage, not unlike many modern men today if truth be told. He was only good at fighting so when he became king, he was poor king who made a lot of horrible mistakes, allowing the Lannister influence in KL to grow, even though he detested his wife.He was also a bad father but he wasn't an evil man, he was just very flawed. As for the Targs, Robert's hate for them was irrational but him wanting their deaths is understandable, his throne would never be safe if any Targ claimants were still breathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefollowthecomet Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Wasn't she his wife? And sorry if this sounds wrong, it just may be my lack of knowledge... But eh, didn't wife in those times belong to him? I don't remember correctly, I read the books some time ago Its called marital rape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.