Feminism - Distractingly Sexy Edition

[Xray the Enforcer]

Not every example of an employee being a difficult asshole can be chalked up to sexism. BUT, the kind of assholery described by Litechick happens to women all. the. time. I've seen it happen and had it happen to me, across a wide variety of disciplines, socioeconomic levels, etc.

 

As such, and since this is the feminism thread, I would prefer this discussion stay focused to LC's situation in particular. All other discussion on asshole employees should go into another thread. (I am quite sure MercChef started one of those about a year ago.) :)

[Mlle. Zabzie]

It does unfortunately happen all the time.  I am currently dealing with a situation that is rather humorous - there is a guy at co-counsel who is a big man-splainer.  The way to goes down is that I have an idea, he rejects it, and 10 minutes later he carefully explains to me why the idea that I presented is a good idea (though it is now his idea).  It is obvious enough that our team has started making jokes about it and are daring me to plant some truly awful ideas for him to coopt.  Not my style, but at least this isn't subtle (and it's clear that the client knows that the ideas are mine not his).  So, I feel for you.  I don't have any great ideas about how to handle in your specific situation beyond talking to him, and if that doesn't work, not working with him again.  It's hard to know who the good 'uns are until the chips are down.

[Lummel]

...Is it OK for me to cultivate a female crew list?  Doesn't that just make me a reverse sexist? ...

 

Yes to the first.  Who cares to the second.  Or at length this is a question about a working environment and you are the boss.  You're not claiming that input from below is unacceptable (honestly the double entendre was completely unintentional), but this sounded like a case of half a dozen of one versus six of another plus the employee couldn't talk about it but instead opted to evade the issue by going home.  He's making work for you, when the point of employees is that they reduce and share your workload (in theory or ideally, in practise a good part of management is dealing with the difficulties that people have in playing nicely together).

 

If he can't talk another option is to do things in writing.  Problem is I can't remember precisely how the technique went, it was something along the lines of taking a sheet of A4, drawing a line half way across the page from top to bottom.  On one side of the line you write what you imagine the problem the other person has, for example I'm concerned that you have problem taking instruction from women or from me in particular on the other side the other person can respond to that in writing.  The idea is that you both prepare a sheet like that, then swap them over, read the comments then reply in writing, swap them back and read at leisure. 

 

The purpose is to make explicit the assumptions that you both have to each other.  The end result might be that you both realise that you can't work together, but the process of getting there is a little more reflective and doesn't require face to face conservation at first which might be an issue.

[TerraPrime]

Litechick:

 

I think it depends in part on how receptive he will be  to having a chat about this. If you respect his work and have an otherwise good working relationship with him, it might be worthwhile to talk to him, and point out the things that he does that are inappropriate to you, and then ask him to explain himself as to why he does those things. Then, tell him how you'd like him to act. Instead of saying "no, let's do it this way" when you say "hey, this should be done like this," ask him to say "hey, what if we try this insread? What do you think?" 

 

But then, he can be a totally defensive asshole about it and start to act even a bigger jerk. In that case, then your decision is made for you - you cannot work with him. 

 

As for an all-female crew - you should pick skilled people whom you can work with. If the majority of men in your field can't deal with a female supervisor, then perhaps, the female workers will do better? Can't hurt to try. 

[litechick]

Thank you for the responses.  I'm still working through it on several levels and working on coping strategies for different scenarios where it happens.  One thing I do know is that I can never whisper the slightest reference to it being a gender thing because I could never prove it and it would only make them indignant and defensive (even if the correlation seems pretty striking to me.)

 

Something similar happened to me the other day, though a completely different scenario. My partner and I were in town heading back to my house, and a guy pulled up in a flash car. He said, "Excuse me, mate, could you tell me how to get to X street?". My SO doesn't know the area as well as I do, and yet this guy immediately went to the man and asked for directions. I answered him, and he said "Oh cheers darling!" and sped off. Because having a uterus means I have no idea where I am. :rolleyes:

 

When I first moved to the city, episodes like this used to drive me nuts until I finally asked for an explanation.  I was told that on the street, you always assume that a man/woman are a couple and since it's a stranger and you have no idea if he is the type who is spoiling for a fight, you act like the woman is invisible to make sure the man doesn't accuse you of trying to hit on his woman.  Of course, once I made it clear to the guy who explained this that I was not a couple with the person I was hanging out with, the guy promptly made a pass at me.

 

Are you sure it is down to misogyny?

Very likely you are, but as a counter example I work in IT and have encountered people who try to behave like that to me (a male) from time to time. Generally they are bright people who come from a background of working in dysfunctional environments where most people are not very good (all too common in IT) and are used to ignoring others and doing it their way to get anything done at all. Sadly I have not usually seen much success in getting them to become team players, so I have no advice to give ...
 

 

Yeah, that's just it.  People may act boorish for any number of reasons which are not gender related.  You can never really be sure and that's part of why it is so insidious.

 

No matter the reason for his behavior, it still needs to be corrected.  One should not treat others that way.  He should be called into a conference and have the issues laid out to him and why his behavior is wrong (as Arkh has said).  Maybe he isn't aware of how he acts, but once it is pointed out to him that it is wrong, there are no more excuses for it.

 

That's what I was hoping for when I asked if he wanted to talk.  The fact that he elected not to talk about it just further illustrates that he doesn't want to hear a word I say.

 

It does unfortunately happen all the time.  I am currently dealing with a situation that is rather humorous - there is a guy at co-counsel who is a big man-splainer.  The way to goes down is that I have an idea, he rejects it, and 10 minutes later he carefully explains to me why the idea that I presented is a good idea (though it is now his idea).  It is obvious enough that our team has started making jokes about it and are daring me to plant some truly awful ideas for him to coopt.  Not my style, but at least this isn't subtle (and it's clear that the client knows that the ideas are mine not his).  So, I feel for you.  I don't have any great ideas about how to handle in your specific situation beyond talking to him, and if that doesn't work, not working with him again.  It's hard to know who the good 'uns are until the chips are down.

 

I'm really glad that others can see what's going on with your situation.  When others can't see it you are so helpless.

 

 

You're not claiming that input from below is unacceptable.... a good part of management is dealing with the difficulties that people have in playing nicely together).

 

 

Thank you.  I'm so glad that came across.  I find it to be a tricky line to keep open to suggestion without creating an atmosphere where people think they can override my plan on a whim.

 

I am very aware that it is on me to find a solution to this.  It may be that the situation is exploding because I swallow it and swallow it until I can't take any more.  Ideally I want to nip it in the bud without being confrontational.

 

Litechick:

 

I think it depends in part on how receptive he will be  to having a chat about this. If you respect his work and have an otherwise good working relationship with him, it might be worthwhile to talk to him, and point out the things that he does that are inappropriate to you, and then ask him to explain himself as to why he does those things. Then, tell him how you'd like him to act. Instead of saying "no, let's do it this way" when you say "hey, this should be done like this," ask him to say "hey, what if we try this insread? What do you think?" 

 

But then, he can be a totally defensive asshole about it and start to act even a bigger jerk. In that case, then your decision is made for you - you cannot work with him. 

 

As for an all-female crew - you should pick skilled people whom you can work with. If the majority of men in your field can't deal with a female supervisor, then perhaps, the female workers will do better? Can't hurt to try. 

 

Skill-wise, he is perfect for this job.  He can work independently and we have an 18 year history of working together successfully.  It may have been this particular situation which caused nascent problems to blow up.  Clearly his receptiveness level is None at All.  In the end we only made it through by not speaking to each other at all and that is not a viable strategy.

 

We are both sad that it came to this but he doesn't even want to hear me enough for me to say that the problem is that he doesn't want to hear me so I can't see a way to fix it.

[Xray the Enforcer]

We are both sad that it came to this but he doesn't even want to hear me enough for me to say that the problem is that he doesn't want to hear me so I can't see a way to fix it.

 

Then the problem is his and his alone. Some people are just not good coworkers. I am friends with a number of talented people who fall into that category, and even if they were the perfect fit skill-wise, I would still never hire them.

 

As such, at this point I think it's time to let this one rest.

 

But, for the future, you can try a few different tactics to get across that you're not a pushover without turning it into a "I'm the boss" confrontation. If someone says "no, we will do it my way," you can say something like "Can you tell me why doing it your way is better?" If the person cannot do that, then your response is "I've had great success doing it my way for these reasons, and because I need to be able to rely on reproducibility, we are going to stick with my way of doing things. When you can explain and demonstrate why your way is better, I will consider it."

 

It basically puts them in the position of having to prove that their way is better to you -- and either they will want to do that, or they won't care. Either way, you retain the upper hand.

[MinDonner]

I have an idea, he rejects it, and 10 minutes later he carefully explains to me why the idea that I presented is a good idea (though it is now his idea).  It is obvious enough that our team has started making jokes about it and are daring me to plant some truly awful ideas for him to coopt. 

A software-engineer friend of mine has actually used this strategy in the past - fed up with this one guy always presenting her ideas as his own, she took to telling him crap ideas that he would steal, and which she could then tear down in front of the rest of the team and present her own much better ideas. Not sure how well this actually worked, but it sounded like it was extremely satisfying.

[DreamSongs]

LC, I have the same problem with a female coworker that consistently attempts to answer questions using outdated information from 5 or 10 years ago and will actually talk over me to hive wrong information. Sometimes people are just inflexible assholes.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

 

A potential derail has been deleted.

 

For the record, the "fedora issue" has been discussed on this forum in the past, can be properly understood via countless pages elsewhere on the net and is a potentially divisive issue that need not be canvassed here again.

 

Simply put, further discussion of the topic in this thread will also be deleted.

 

[/MOD]

[Lyanna Stark]

Right, since the refugee thread had some pretty common complaints against feminists, I thought it was time to resurrect the feminism thread for this very purpose.

 

Basically, it boils down to a couple of things:

 

1. Feminists should focus on more "serious" issues and stop complaining about sexism in gaming

 

2. Feminists are not targeting muslims/immigrants as much as they ought to

 

3. Feminists don't always agree with other feminists on methods

 

Some commentary on this lifted from the refugee thread:

 

 

Yes, it is unfair to say all feminist. But the problem is mentioned within the article:

 

 

And this is a real issue, with some feminist not being able to draw a line and say even if I do not think they are right all the time, it is their RIGHT to do what they do. You have an easier time getting that from women and men outside feminist circles. 

 

And if you look at right wing protest in germany, it used to be (almost entirely) men, but now it seems it draws more and more women. And I think this is one of the reasons. That blight on women due to immigration and insuffient enforcement by the police and integration are more or less ignored.

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/KVWAIKoatWM?t=1

 

Here's an interesting document about the immigration in Germany.

Sweden has the same problems. European immigration does not work.

 

In one case, even after living 20 years in Germany, the children are still taught that women are objects of men, and that it's okay for the man to discipline the women - which contradicts with the constitution of Germany.

It would be great to see some of the bigger feminists circles to take issue with this and raise awareness, but as per usual - when it comes to immigration and race, the feminists are nowhere to be seen..

 

e: link fixed

 

 

 

 

So Germany's compassion and high horses only lasted a week, Withdrawing of Schengen, sending troops to the border. meanwhile the Hungarians are evil nazi's for having to deal with this for years.

 

But no worries, there are always Sweden, The last bastion of humanity. That country would never give in to the racists and turn away refugees in need. I guess all the economic growth and opportunity is theirs now.

 

 

 

And in reply to my questioning what, exactly, feminists ought to do:

 

 

 

Attacking the immigrant's mediaeval values with the same fervor as you attack teenage gamer boys horrible misogynistic way to express themselves maybe.

 

 

So, feminists, how to reply to this?

 

Regarding 1, this is a common one, which even Richard Dawkins fell for. How "thankful" women should be for how much better we have it now than in the past, and how instead of focusing on further things where we live, we should instead fight for women in countries where things are worse only, until, I suppose, everyone is at the same level. Obviously, this pre-supposes that feminists cannot keep more than one thing in their minds or have thoughts on more than one thing, plus of course that feminists in the west can influence stuff like the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia. "Fight on sisters" #WesternEuroFeminists, "Warms our hearts and made a Real Difference" #SaudiWomen.  (This is not even touching on the fact that it's got lot of cultural imperialistic connotations, that Western European feminists should somehow "teach" muslim women the "proper" way of being feminist.

 

Regarding 2, this is linked with 1, and funnily a lot of liberal feminists have been raging against honour killings here lately, so this whole "feminists don't care about immigrants" is clearly wrong, not to mention it's debated a lot, but from the left the commentary is generally about structural issues and lack of funding for integration, housing and education, while liberal feminists demand legislation. Femen's actions have been debated as well, with different views on that too (more on that in 3) so it's not like this is a wasteland of nothing. In fact, there is a LOT of discussion going on. If you miss this, you are, I am guessing, reading the wrong things. In fact, one of the major newspapers in Sweden has been quite supportive of Femen's legal rights to carry out their activism,. The liberal newspaper is reporting about as well, stating that this activist has been removed from both the Russian embassy as well as muslim events and now Pegida's event, so this is clearly feminists speaking up against sexism in all sorts of contexts. (I have also happened to see an interview with this woman on a feminist TV show, so it's not like "feminists" as a group are totally removed from this type of activists at all. Femen might not be mainstream, but they're certainly part of the feminist movement as a whole and even if people may disagree with their methods, it's not the same as disagreeing with their view on sexism.)

 

Regarding 3, this is a healthy sign of a movement in which people can be allowed to disagree. Especially if you know a few things about the various branches of feminism, this is extremely unsurprising. That liberal feminists are generally less keen on activists like Femen is completely, 100% unsurprising, while socialist feminists are generally more supportive. (Interestingly, the link to "other feminists disagree" with the Femen activists don't actually link to anyone disagreeing as far as I can see.)

 

My guess is that this is only surprising to people who have no clue about feminism or the history of feminism. To everyone else, it is pretty goddamn obvious.

[MinDonner]

As an interesting thought experiment, I wonder what the reaction would have been if Western Feminism(TM) had risen up and said "no refugees allowed here! You are all too sexist! Go back to your warzone!" I'm sure that totally wouldn't have resulted in the same shower going "stfu feminists, god, it's not all about you!".

Always telling when "sexism in other cultures" is used as a handy excuse to bash other cultures, largely by people who don't give a crap about sexism in any other circumstances.

[TerraPrime]

As an interesting thought experiment, I wonder what the reaction would have been if Western Feminism(TM) had risen up and said "no refugees allowed here! You are all too sexist! Go back to your warzone!" I'm sure that totally wouldn't have resulted in the same shower going "stfu feminists, god, it's not all about you!".

Always telling when "sexism in other cultures" is used as a handy excuse to bash other cultures, largely by people who don't give a crap about sexism in any other circumstances.

 

 

Preach it, sister.

[Ormond]

 

 

3. Feminists don't always agree with other feminists on methods

 

 

 

 

Regarding 3, this is a healthy sign of a movement in which people can be allowed to disagree. Especially if you know a few things about the various branches of feminism, this is extremely unsurprising. That liberal feminists are generally less keen on activists like Femen is completely, 100% unsurprising, while socialist feminists are generally more supportive. (Interestingly, the link to "other feminists disagree" with the Femen activists don't actually link to anyone disagreeing as far as I can see.)

 

My guess is that this is only surprising to people who have no clue about feminism or the history of feminism. To everyone else, it is pretty goddamn obvious.

How on earth can that be a serious criticism of ANY movement? When have all liberals, all conservatives, all Christians, all Muslims, all businesspeople, all military leaders,  etc,., etc. ever "always agreed on methods."?  To expect any group to always agree on methods or tactics is ridiculous, and complaining about that is complaining about human nature in general. 

[Seli]

re 1 and 2:

It is only natural that people start with trying to change the communities they are actually part of. And it is near impossible, and at times counterproductive to force change from the outside in other communities. So it makes perfect sense that the fans of games, comics, books, etc, try to enact change in their own environment. Only natural that people try to provide a framework in their own world that others who are in a less free community can use as an example or as an escape route when they need one. Especially since in most of our western countries we have a legal framework that protects all individuals to some extent already.

[deleted01]

How on earth can that be a serious criticism of ANY movement? When have all liberals, all conservatives, all Christians, all Muslims, all businesspeople, all military leaders,  etc,., etc. ever "always agreed on methods."?  To expect any group to always agree on methods or tactics is ridiculous, and complaining about that is complaining about human nature in general. 

I see it a lot, feminists "not being consistent". It's ridiculous, but a common complaint.

As for Femen, I love them. I love their fierceness, their confidence, their strength. I love what they stand for and how they stand for it. I love their passion. I personally think we need to be more aggressive sometimes, in order to be heard (but I am aware that not everyone would agree with me - and also, I wish it wasn't necessary).

[Ojji]

As an interesting thought experiment, I wonder what the reaction would have been if Western Feminism(TM) had risen up and said "no refugees allowed here! You are all too sexist! Go back to your warzone!" I'm sure that totally wouldn't have resulted in the same shower going "stfu feminists, god, it's not all about you!".

Always telling when "sexism in other cultures" is used as a handy excuse to bash other cultures, largely by people who don't give a crap about sexism in any other circumstances.

 

If the Western Feminism(TM) had risen up and said "Immigrants coming in to our countries have to obey our laws and our rules. The mistreatment of women is not allowed within our borders."

(or something along those lines). Would be strongly accepted within European society.

It's not about accepting, or not accepting refugees, it's about the abuse of women.

 

It's about the unwillingness of the refugees to adapt into your society and laws, in some cases even after living in there for years.

Most of the islam families are teaching the same principals, regarding women that is, to their children that they were once taught in their native country. These principals do not belong in a European society. But for some reason, no one is talking about this, no one is writing about this..

 

And you are certainly not addressing this, it's more like you're just trying to change the subject.

 

Anyway.. I wonder if any of the men involved in the 'Topless FEMEN activist' -stunt will be charged with anything, or if they're just gonna get away with it because of religious reasons? The men were kicking the activists on the ground.

 

 

 

E: I wanted to add, a 7 year old girl was raped in school by a muslim refugee earlier this week. As a result the school sent letters to parents telling the children to not wear anything too revealing as to not offend the immigrants, and risk their own safety.

With news like this, it's really sad to see how little press coverage it gets. And I think every feminist in the world should be raising awareness on the cultural differences.. But everyone is just too afraid to speak about it, because it makes them a racist.

 

But I doubt this will change anything, we will just keep pretending it's an individual case.

[TerraPrime]

 

E: I wanted to add, a 7 year old girl was raped in school by a muslim refugee earlier this week. As a result the school sent letters to parents telling the children to not wear anything too revealing as to not offend the immigrants, and risk their own safety.

 

Source?

[Ojji]

 

Source?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9cid-8eW3g

 

I saw it on reddit today, couldn't find the link tho.. I am actually quite shocked when I started googling for that youtube link. There's literally nothing on anything major news papers.

e: http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2015-09-11-1441962756-3645410-sowofa.jpg

This is apparently the letter, damn I wish I could speak german now.

 

another edit: apparently that is some other letter sent from refugee shelter saying that the women and children are not safe, because they are not seperated from the men..?

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/09/horror-muslim-migrant-in-europe-brutally-rapes-7-year-old-white-girl-video/

This and the liveleak with the same video as the youtube link are the only source I can find now. I'm sure I saw it earlier upvoted on reddit, now it's nowhere to be seen.

[TerraPrime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9cid-8eW3g

 

The mother (I presume) related that the victim described a "southern" or "North African" looking man.

 

Did the subtitle missed it when she said "Muslim migrant?"

[Seli]

 

...

It's about the unwillingness of the refugees to adapt into your society and laws, in some cases even after living in there for years.

Most of the islam families are teaching the same principals, regarding women that is, to their children that they were once taught in their native country. These principals do not belong in a European society. But for some reason, no one is talking about this, no one is writing about this..

...

We have a whole bunch of local conservative Christians, with deep roots in the country, who do exactly the same. And for some reason that is not a huge problem to the people complaining about the scary immigrants and fugitives.