Feminism - Distractingly Sexy Edition

[TerraPrime]

Neckbeards that use that kind of language probably default to aggressive attack mode against any women they deem as uppity, so that's probably why he went after you immediately. But good on you for calling out that shit. We can't all do it all the time because it sucks the energy out of us, but it's always good that someone steps up to do it. 

 

Incidentally, I've defriended people on FB who has friends who are bigots, and they (my FB friends) don't dress them down when needed. If one of my FB friends say something bigoted and awful to another one of my FB friends without good justification, s/he is going to be off my friend's list. 

[Theda Baratheon]

Neckbeards that use that kind of language probably default to aggressive attack mode against any women they deem as uppity, so that's probably why he went after you immediately. But good on you for calling out that shit. We can't all do it all the time because it sucks the energy out of us, but it's always good that someone steps up to do it. 

 

Incidentally, I've defriended people on FB who has friends who are bigots, and they (my FB friends) don't dress them down when needed. If one of my FB friends say something bigoted and awful to another one of my FB friends without good justification, s/he is going to be off my friend's list. 

It's my best friends boyfriend, all his friends are total pseudo intellectual wankers who all think they're smart and enlightened when they're all sexist metalhead douchebags. I don't want to delete him but damn it's hard to resist commenting on some of his statuses. I just wasn't expecting such a freaking hostile instantaneous response and then the meta bullshit that came after was the most condescending crap ever. I was called insecure, spoiling for a fight, overly PC and an obnoxious bitch by various other posters then hahahahhaa on a status about how shitty some feminists can be. Ya can't make that stuff up. As initially taken aback as I was I'm glad I called them out on it and frankly am not embarrassed to ''make a scene'' on someone elses facebook status when they're making kinda dumb provocative statuses that attract rude, pesudo intellectual turds. When someone told me I was obviously spoiling for a fight I said that I never come in expecting fights but I will sure as hell stay for one. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1.  7th Pup - I get the same sort of nonsense but with the added twist of a direct comparison to my girls.  It's really, really irsksome.  Husband and I just try to shut it down quickly.

 

2.  Lyanna, for UF, what's your definition of "problematic?"  I can find lots of problems if I nitpick enough, but, for instance, Seanan McGuire's books (October Daye and Incryptid) have lots of strong women characters (that is, the heroine is not the exceptional character) and while there are strong men in the books as well, the women do not rely on them in a way that I find problematic.  I feel much the same way about Jacqueline Carey's Agent of Hel series.  But, to be fair, when I'm reading UF, I'm not looking for deep social commentary.  I'm looking for a good time :)

 

 3.  In better news, did everyone see that Alex Morgan will be on the cover of EA FIFA 2016?  This I see as progress.

[Galactus]

This is just One Of Those Random Observations things:

 

I have a dog. I walk it a lot. (as you do) sometimes children come forward and want to say hi/pet the dog. (since he's a good dog I usually let them) what I've noticed recently though is that the vast, vast majority of kids who do that are girls. Like, probably more than 90%.

 

It feels really weird, since I haven't really associated being fond of animals as being a gendered thing. 

[TerraPrime]

Re: Theda

 

And what does your best friend say to all of this? 

 

Also, while not 100% effective, you can unfollow a person's post without unfriending them directly. That won't prevent you from having to read their stuff on your friend's streams though. 

 

Thankfully, none of my friends have had SOs who are jackasses. One came close but still tolerable. But I have no reservations on defriending any assholes. I am friend with X, not with X's SO. Anyone worthy of my friendship won't hold it against me to defriend sexist assholes in my social media. 

[Arkhangel]

It's my best friends boyfriend, all his friends are total pseudo intellectual wankers who all think they're smart and enlightened when they're all sexist metalhead douchebags. I don't want to delete him but damn it's hard to resist commenting on some of his statuses. I just wasn't expecting such a freaking hostile instantaneous response and then the meta bullshit that came after was the most condescending crap ever. I was called insecure, spoiling for a fight, overly PC and an obnoxious bitch by various other posters then hahahahhaa on a status about how shitty some feminists can be. Ya can't make that stuff up. As initially taken aback as I was I'm glad I called them out on it and frankly am not embarrassed to ''make a scene'' on someone elses facebook status when they're making kinda dumb provocative statuses that attract rude, pesudo intellectual turds. When someone told me I was obviously spoiling for a fight I said that I never come in expecting fights but I will sure as hell stay for one. 

 

Your best friend's boyfriend called you a cunt and she, what, said nothing? What the hell kind of best friend is that?

[Seventh Pup]

I was just called a cunt on someone elses status because I asked a neckbeard not to make comments about women being harmed and called him out on his misuse of what a metaphor is. And he comes in telling me to shut the fuck up 'you self righteous cunt'. This status was about how shitty some feminists can be. Lol. What a charmer.

I'm surprised by how shaken up I am though, I don't mind people swearing at me I'm a big girl - it's just that this was within minutes of my post and was so unexpected and ....hostile. even though it was online it actually took me aback. Hands were shaking a second ago...

 

That is fucking terrible. I always get a bit shaken up with someone is so confrontational like that. Good for you for calling him out. Also I have to love the irony, that he calls you a "cunt" for calling him out on being sexist, because he's obviously not being sexist, and let him call you a gendered insult to prove how fucking unsexist he is!

[Theda Baratheon]

Re: Theda
 
And what does your best friend say to all of this? 
 
Also, while not 100% effective, you can unfollow a person's post without unfriending them directly. That won't prevent you from having to read their stuff on your friend's streams though. 
 
Thankfully, none of my friends have had SOs who are jackasses. One came close but still tolerable. But I have no reservations on defriending any assholes. I am friend with X, not with X's SO. Anyone worthy of my friendship won't hold it against me to defriend sexist assholes in my social media.

She hates all his friends as well LOL. She thinks they're all pseudo intellectual douche bags. To be honest, I'm not all that sure she even really likes her boyfriend that much. I think I will unfollow him on facebook though, good idea. He means well and seems nice enough but he is also very annoying and even though hes a few years older than us is VERY immature.

Your best friend's boyfriend called you a cunt and she, what, said nothing? What the hell kind of best friend is that?

Oh NOO. Sorry, didn't explain it well. It was on one of HIS (best friends boyfriend) facebook status. So it was his FRIENDS, not him and he did tell his friend off but he also then came on PM and patronisingly asked me if something was up with me as I seemed upset. I reminded him one of his mates called me a cunt and an obnoxious bitch and that I was astounded that my reaction was so surprising and that maybe he should go ask his mate if HE was upset about something instead. Typing this all out makes me feel like it's all lame high school type drama and is a bit embarrassing but WOWW did it shake me up at the time.

[Theda Baratheon]

That is fucking terrible. I always get a bit shaken up with someone is so confrontational like that. Good for you for calling him out. Also I have to love the irony, that he calls you a "cunt" for calling him out on being sexist, because he's obviously not being sexist, and let him call you a gendered insult to prove how fucking unsexist he is!

I know!!! No one understood that!!! In fact one of the douche bags said that it was annoying/amusing that the status had turned into one about a "womans issue" (!!!!!) I reminded him the actual status WAS about feminism and that I was so surprised no one had picked up on the ridiculousness of a girl being called a cunt and a bitch and then gaslighted the hell out of on a status about how shitty FEMINISTS are!!!! Crazy stuff cant make it up.

[Gillio]

It's my best friends boyfriend, all his friends are total pseudo intellectual wankers who all think they're smart and enlightened when they're all sexist metalhead douchebags. I don't want to delete him but damn it's hard to resist commenting on some of his statuses. I just wasn't expecting such a freaking hostile instantaneous response and then the meta bullshit that came after was the most condescending crap ever. I was called insecure, spoiling for a fight, overly PC and an obnoxious bitch by various other posters then hahahahhaa on a status about how shitty some feminists can be. Ya can't make that stuff up. As initially taken aback as I was I'm glad I called them out on it and frankly am not embarrassed to ''make a scene'' on someone elses facebook status when they're making kinda dumb provocative statuses that attract rude, pesudo intellectual turds. When someone told me I was obviously spoiling for a fight I said that I never come in expecting fights but I will sure as hell stay for one. 

 

 

 

What happens at WorldCon stays at WorldCon, yo. 

 

(seriously, I cackled inappropriately when I read that sentence the first time)

 

:laugh:

 

I know!!! No one understood that!!! In fact one of the douche bags said that it was annoying/amusing that the status had turned into one about a "womans issue" (!!!!!) I reminded him the actual status WAS about feminism and that I was so surprised no one had picked up on the ridiculousness of a girl being called a cunt and a bitch and then gaslighted the hell out of on a status about how shitty FEMINISTS are!!!! Crazy stuff cant make it up.

 

Theda, i just found this on my facebook feed.

[TerraPrime]

Sorry for the slight side-track,but saw this comic posted and thought it appropriate here, as a commentary on the way that some men can act in response to women "encroaching" on their turf.

 

http://www.dorkly.com/post/46874/female-fantasy-iii

[Kat]

[mod] Because the discussion of urban fantasy was better suited to the Lit forum, I moved it back there as its own thread which I'm going to tag with the up front stuff here about feminism so it doesn't turn into feminism-denial nonsense.[/mod]

[emberling]

crossposted with kat

yeah, I am that slow

[deleted01]

Theda, i just found this on my facebook feed.

What is it with Facebook at the moment? I just saw my SO's mum and his sister-in-law share the same post, about "real women" always cleaning their houses and looking nice and never swearing. And the "joke" was that the women who don't do those things think they might be men. Sigh.

Now, I know these women - they might not be model feminists, and they do have some internalised sexism that rears its ugly head every so often, but they're decent people. And yet, posts like that make me so angry. Sooo I reposted it, together with a relatively short and calm(ish) rant (Facebook friends are welcome to witness the fallout if people notice and decide to take offense). Ah, families. I really have trouble keeping my mouth shut, family or no. :dunno:

Edit: Cos Onglish.

[litechick]

Help me, Oh Board.  Lately I have been having trouble with men who know me and --I would have assumed-- like me who seem to be slapping me down with the misogyny stick.

 

The Scenario:  there is mutual respect and affection in the relationship, I speak, they talk over me.  My first impulse is always to assume that I am communicating poorly or am saying something uninteresting/stupid.  I don't want to be that person who is oblivious to her own idiocy so I give the benefit of the doubt that they are right and I am wrong.

 

However, particularly in a professional context, I feel like if I hire someone to assist me I shouldn't have to argue with him to get my way.  'This pipe is crooked and needs to be leveled.  Let's do this...'  "No, no, no, it should be done like this."  There are many ways to get the job done.  I don't give a flying fuck which way it is done so long as it is done and done efficiently. 

 

I do however deeply resent the attitude that I am all wrong and he needs to step in and fix my poor method.  Every time he won't let me finish a sentence, every time he talks over me, every time he assumes that he knows what's what better than me, I want to punch him in the face.  But I was raised female and there is still that kneejerk reaction that I must be at fault. 

 

I don't want to be that person who says, 'I sign your check so you will knuckle under and do it my way.'  I also don't want to be the person who gets dominated by her coworkers.  I'm having trouble finding the middle ground.  In general I am averse to conflict (like women are trained to be) so it is hard for me to know when to lay the smack down.

 

I don't want to go into a full-on soap opera rant so I will try and summarize:  I thought he was one of the good ones.  Now I am sad/angry. 

 

He is also sad.  At one moment he said, "I didn't want it to come to this" and I said "me neither."  But here we are.  I need to deeply consider whether I should just not ever hire him again or whether I should try to bridge the gap.  At the end of the day I asked, "Do you want to talk or do you just want to go home?" and he elected to just go home.

 

The trouble with hiring smart people is that they question every little thing you do.  I want to hire smart people but I don't want to fucking argue with them.  Is it so much to ask that they give me the basic courtesy of assuming that I know what I'm doing?  I have no real idea if this is a gender issue because I have never worked with a woman who treated me that way.  Given the scarcity of women in my industry, it's not surprising that I haven't had that experience with a woman.

 

In the larger sense, I have been thinking about blind spots lately.  By definition, blindness is the inability to see.  It does no good to go to a person who is literally blind, wave your hand in front of their face and say, "Come on, how many fingers am I holding up?  It's right in front of you, how can you possibly not know or see?"  If a person is blind, he is blind.  There is no sense in arguing about it. When it comes to metaphorical blindness, it's the same thing.

 

Right now it seems like I should just give up.  I can't bridge the gap.  He doesn't even know there is a gap.  To him I am just a stereotypical, emotional woman who gets all upset when he offers a modest suggestion to improve the situation.  There is no way for me to make him see.

 

Is it OK for me to cultivate a female crew list?  Doesn't that just make me a reverse sexist?  I'm trying really hard not to be bitter but right now I hate men.  If I settle down tomorrow and decide they aren't so bad, does that just confirm that I'm an emotional woman or is it to my credit that I can cool down and start anew?

[deleted01]

Positive discrimination can be a good thing, as it gives the minority in an industry (in this case, women) the chance to show what they can do. So hiring more women could be a step in the right direction.

As for his behaviour, it seems to me like he's being rude to his superior, which is unacceptable. Questioning is fine, great even, but not listening to instructions is grounds for dismissal, imho. If you can't get through to him, explain what he's done, and let him go, if you can.

Something similar happened to me the other day, though a completely different scenario. My partner and I were in town heading back to my house, and a guy pulled up in a flash car. He said, "Excuse me, mate, could you tell me how to get to X street?". My SO doesn't know the area as well as I do, and yet this guy immediately went to the man and asked for directions. I answered him, and he said "Oh cheers darling!" and sped off. Because having a uterus means I have no idea where I am. :rolleyes:

[Arkhangel]

Help me, Oh Board.  Lately I have been having trouble with men who know me and --I would have assumed-- like me who seem to be slapping me down with the misogyny stick.

 

The Scenario:  there is mutual respect and affection in the relationship, I speak, they talk over me.  My first impulse is always to assume that I am communicating poorly or am saying something uninteresting/stupid.  I don't want to be that person who is oblivious to her own idiocy so I give the benefit of the doubt that they are right and I am wrong.

 

However, particularly in a professional context, I feel like if I hire someone to assist me I shouldn't have to argue with him to get my way.  'This pipe is crooked and needs to be leveled.  Let's do this...'  "No, no, no, it should be done like this."  There are many ways to get the job done.  I don't give a flying fuck which way it is done so long as it is done and done efficiently. 

 

I do however deeply resent the attitude that I am all wrong and he needs to step in and fix my poor method.  Every time he won't let me finish a sentence, every time he talks over me, every time he assumes that he knows what's what better than me, I want to punch him in the face.  But I was raised female and there is still that kneejerk reaction that I must be at fault. 

 

I don't want to be that person who says, 'I sign your check so you will knuckle under and do it my way.'  I also don't want to be the person who gets dominated by her coworkers.  I'm having trouble finding the middle ground.  In general I am averse to conflict (like women are trained to be) so it is hard for me to know when to lay the smack down.

 

I don't want to go into a full-on soap opera rant so I will try and summarize:  I thought he was one of the good ones.  Now I am sad/angry. 

 

He is also sad.  At one moment he said, "I didn't want it to come to this" and I said "me neither."  But here we are.  I need to deeply consider whether I should just not ever hire him again or whether I should try to bridge the gap.  At the end of the day I asked, "Do you want to talk or do you just want to go home?" and he elected to just go home.

 

The trouble with hiring smart people is that they question every little thing you do.  I want to hire smart people but I don't want to fucking argue with them.  Is it so much to ask that they give me the basic courtesy of assuming that I know what I'm doing?  I have no real idea if this is a gender issue because I have never worked with a woman who treated me that way.  Given the scarcity of women in my industry, it's not surprising that I haven't had that experience with a woman.

 

In the larger sense, I have been thinking about blind spots lately.  By definition, blindness is the inability to see.  It does no good to go to a person who is literally blind, wave your hand in front of their face and say, "Come on, how many fingers am I holding up?  It's right in front of you, how can you possibly not know or see?"  If a person is blind, he is blind.  There is no sense in arguing about it. When it comes to metaphorical blindness, it's the same thing.

 

Right now it seems like I should just give up.  I can't bridge the gap.  He doesn't even know there is a gap.  To him I am just a stereotypical, emotional woman who gets all upset when he offers a modest suggestion to improve the situation.  There is no way for me to make him see.

 

Is it OK for me to cultivate a female crew list?  Doesn't that just make me a reverse sexist?  I'm trying really hard not to be bitter but right now I hate men.  If I settle down tomorrow and decide they aren't so bad, does that just confirm that I'm an emotional woman or is it to my credit that I can cool down and start anew?

 

Can you sit down with him and explain it in a similar way to how you've laid it out here? That you feel the way he speaks to you, and speaks OVER you, is rude bordering on disrespectful; that as your employee and co-worker he is of course entitled to give his input but that ultimately the decision is yours; that you're unsure whether he treats you this way because you're a woman or whether he's had similar problems with employers in the past, but either way it needs to stop.

 

Edited to get rid of the hedging. Don't say you 'feel' it, because that will feed into whatever pre-existing biases he may have about emotional women. Just give it to him straight, 'this is how it is'.

[Theda Baratheon]

As drac said, he sounds like someone who was talking over and being rude to his superior which he probably wouldn't have done if he was working for a man????

Either way I don't think you should feel bad about cultivating a female crew list because that just means women who are obviously the minority in your industry will get the chance to work and show what they can do.



I totally understand your dilemma of wanting to hire smart people but them questioning your work but it sounds like this guy, as smart and possibly nice as a person he is, was being rude to you and constantly talking OVER you which is unacceptable tbh. Questioning at times and suggesting should be fine but when he is just assuming he can do better than you at every single little thing I don't think you need to feel bad about letting him go.

Edit:

Maybe best to try it arkh's way first tho

[A wilding]

Are you sure it is down to misogyny?

Very likely you are, but as a counter example I work in IT and have encountered people who try to behave like that to me (a male) from time to time. Generally they are bright people who come from a background of working in dysfunctional environments where most people are not very good (all too common in IT) and are used to ignoring others and doing it their way to get anything done at all. Sadly I have not usually seen much success in getting them to become team players, so I have no advice to give ...
 

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

No matter the reason for his behavior, it still needs to be corrected.  One should not treat others that way.  He should be called into a conference and have the issues laid out to him and why his behavior is wrong (as Arkh has said).  Maybe he isn't aware of how he acts, but once it is pointed out to him that it is wrong, there are no more excuses for it.