Rant and Rave without Repercussion [Book Spoilers]

[Ciri Riannon]

Guys - please - just join me and walk away fully. This crock of shit isn't worth tainting TWOW even slightly.

I'm not going to watch it! I don't wanna be spoiled by this shitshow. I'm even thinking about deactivating my facebook account because of my stupid unsullied friends and all the nerdy pages I liked.

[Gargarax]

Just realized that D&D weren't even aware that Sam was a PoV character. :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc&feature=youtu.be

at 13:55 min. :dunno:

That's why I think they can't have read the books more than once - or maybe not even once? How can you forget that? He may just have had a blackout there, but this seriously shouldn't happen.

I'd love to make the two clowns do a ASOIAF quiz - I'm very sure they'd fail even if it contained just questions about the storylines and not the lore ...

It also shows, however, that HBO doesn't look at CVs or requires any recommendations before they hire you. Nowadays, everybody who's willing to make a show with titties can work there, apparently ...

[hwyl]

Well, I was mostly drawn to the brutal realism of the political and military struggle in Martin's text. It really does remind one of the middle ages (though with middle ages on steroids), and you were repelled and fascinated at the same time. With every adaption (whatever the media) we can legimitely ask whether the adptation honours the original story and it's world and atmosphere. And there I thought that till this season the series did ok - not perfectly, but we were obviously in the same world and atmosphere.

But this season... I don't know what to say: suddenly it was all about dumbing down the realism and hurrying from one artificial and illogical "high" to another. And all sense of the devious manouverings and calculations of Martin's text just disappeared. Like this "battle" of Winterfell: one of the leading commanders of the age just treks happily forward without supplies or any remote semblance of a plan and is then SURPRISED by a frontal attack from barely a half mile away. I mean they just butchered his character in two episodes without any reason or logic. Like it can happen in VERY BAD FANTASY where you don't need any logic or internal realism. If Martin would have written like that, I would never have been hooked - it would just been like any number of the zillion bad fantasy epics that we have had since Tolkien.

So, it's kind of good timing: I now have to say goodbye to the show anyway - but after this season I will not miss it. They just ruthlessly destroyed the story this season. Unbelievable.

[Lord Freypie]

(...)

Cut back to Stannis and the Boltons. We come back right where we left off, with the Boltons about to crash into Stannis's much smaller force. Just when it looks like the forces will engage, Ramsay glances at the floor and notices that it's made of ice with a lot of holes in it. We see a small look of surprise on his face, just enough to get his emotions across before Stannis's catapults fire rocks on to the lake. The already weakened ice begins to crack. Cut to the entire lake shattering under the weight of the horses and the damage done by the artillery and the holes, Ramsay and his cavalry drowning, and Stannis giving his first genuine smile in the show. Then he draws his sword and orders his men to cut down the surviving foot following behind the cavalry. His men cheer.

Cut to the next scene, which depicts him marching into Winterfell triumphantly, as defectors open the gates to the victorious army. He announces that he will execute Roose Bolton. Season ends on a high note. I typed this in about ten minutes so it might not come across very well, but still. This is simple shit, it could be done cheaply and quickly.

That's just Stannis, not counting everything else that happens in books 4 and 5. Not Euron, Asha, Victarion, Jon Con, fAegon, Arianne, or any of the other major characters in these books. Can you seriously tell me that wouldn't be FUCKING AWESOME television? Or, at the very least, a thousand times better than Stannis being an idiot with a pointless story where he's defeated off-screen by Ramsay Sue?

I don't see why they should have changed the outcome if Stannis is to lose in the books (and don't understand why so many people still believe he'll magically win when the show just spoiled he won't).

What I see will very likely happen in Twow, as 7 days of battles are mentionned in the pink letter, is :

- 1st day of Battle : ice lake trap work against Frey's vanguard, making the reader believe Stannis could win (like the reader was made believe Oberyn could win)

- Most Manderly knights are killed by the trap too (first hint it won't end well), still a few defect

- 2nd day of Battle : Ramsay arrive, don't fall into the trap, attack the village by other sides

- Stannis succeeds to repell a first assault, still giving some hope

- 3rd day, Roose arrives with all remaining Bolton forces and decide to siege Stannis positions instead of continuing to attack

- days 4-6, the starving army of Stannis had a small chance to win in open battle but not to survive more days with nothing to eat

- day 7 heroic sortie attempt by Stannis, with some initial success giving some hope a last time, but where Stannis is finally defeated and (appears) killed

All that told in parallel with the Battle of Mereen, where the outcome will be better, making the readers expect even more that the side they root for will win in the two.

(and yes I think pink letter is written by Ramsay and mostly true, because the best surprise Martin can pull after so many false deaths twists - and especially after the "Davos is dead" letter- is there is no surprise this time)

Show problem is their checklist approach to tell the story. They keep the important plot points (here I think it's "Stannis finally lose") but botch context and characterization and make what could have been a great story, no matter if the "good" or "bad" side wins here, finally suspense less and uninteresting.

[Nihlus]

I don't see why they should have changed the outcome if Stannis is to lose in the books (and don't understand why so many people still believe he'll magically win when the show just spoiled he won't).

What I see will very likely happen in Twow, as 7 days of battles are mentionned in the pink letter, is :

- 1st day of Battle : ice lake trap work against Frey's vanguard, making the reader believe Stannis could win (like the reader was made believe Oberyn could win)

- Most Manderly knights are killed by the trap too (first hint it won't end well), still a few defect

- 2nd day of Battle : Ramsay arrive, don't fall into the trap, attack the village by other sides

- Stannis succeeds to repell a first assault, still giving some hope

- 3rd day, Roose arrives with all remaining Bolton forces and decide to siege Stannis positions instead of continuing to attack

- days 4-6, the starving army of Stannis had a small chance to win in open battle but not to survive more days with nothing to eat

- day 7 heroic sortie attempt by Stannis, with some initial success giving some hope a last time, but where Stannis is finally defeated and (appears) killed

All that told in parallel with the Battle of Mereen, where the outcome will be better, making the readers expect even more that the side they root for will win in the two.

Stannis isn't going to lose against the Boltons. The show obviously was just trying to get rid of him. He almost certainly does die, but not here. And not in such a pathetic manner. The show runners probably just thought "eh, he doesn't win the Iron Throne, we can kill him off and it won't matter". Which is of course BS.

Nope. Even ignoring all the foreshadowing and the fallout of his potential death, we have Daenerys seeing herself fighting Stannis in her vision. He's not dying against the Boltons. Plus, there are way too many inconsistencies for Ramsay's letter to be what it appears.

[The Lord of Cinder]

Just realized that D&D weren't even aware that Sam was a PoV character. :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfvVluNxujc&feature=youtu.be

at 13:55 min. :dunno:

It could be he just forgot, easy to do such mistakes when speaking in front of a crowd. But even then, the moment someone points out that he is a POV character, most knowledgeable people would instantly have been like: "Yeah, of course! He's been one since the third book! My bad". This makes me believe that they've sadly distanced themselves quite much from the source material (as if this season wasn't proof enough).

[teemo]

So do you guys think this means that Jon Snow is dead for real in the books? i'm so confused now and don't know what to think....I hate it :( I don't even watch it anymore.

[Ciri Riannon]

So do you guys think this means that Jon Snow is dead for real in the books? i'm so confused now and don't know what to think....I hate it :( I don't even watch it anymore.

DUH! Of course he is dead! So is Myrcella! And Shireen. And Barristan. In fact, Arianne and Aegon don't even really exist! Calm down, we can trust showrunners

[Gargarax]

So do you guys think this means that Jon Snow is dead for real in the books? i'm so confused now and don't know what to think....I hate it :( I don't even watch it anymore.

I don't think it means that, because ...

1. In the show, only Bran has been established as a warg. It would be so weird to have Jon warg into Ghost when ShowGhostwas mostly Sam's pet.

2. In the books, the Varamyr prologue is completely redundant if Jon's death doesn't mirror it in some way.

3. Mel came back to the Wall for a reason. She could have gone anywhere (KL being just a day's ride away). The show needs her there.

Whether he will become UnJon or whether he will warg or be warged into somebody else in the show, I don't know. I don't think BookJon is dead - he will be reborn one way or the other.

[rayarts]

So do you guys think this means that Jon Snow is dead for real in the books? i'm so confused now and don't know what to think....I hate it :( I don't even watch it anymore.

If you think that Jon Snow is dead for real, then you know nothing

[protar]

I don't see why they should have changed the outcome if Stannis is to lose in the books (and don't understand why so many people still believe he'll magically win when the show just spoiled he won't).

What I see will very likely happen in Twow, as 7 days of battles are mentionned in the pink letter, is :

- 1st day of Battle : ice lake trap work against Frey's vanguard, making the reader believe Stannis could win (like the reader was made believe Oberyn could win)

- Most Manderly knights are killed by the trap too (first hint it won't end well), still a few defect

- 2nd day of Battle : Ramsay arrive, don't fall into the trap, attack the village by other sides

- Stannis succeeds to repell a first assault, still giving some hope

- 3rd day, Roose arrives with all remaining Bolton forces and decide to siege Stannis positions instead of continuing to attack

- days 4-6, the starving army of Stannis had a small chance to win in open battle but not to survive more days with nothing to eat

- day 7 heroic sortie attempt by Stannis, with some initial success giving some hope a last time, but where Stannis is finally defeated and (appears) killed

All that told in parallel with the Battle of Mereen, where the outcome will be better, making the readers expect even more that the side they root for will win in the two.

(and yes I think pink letter is written by Ramsay and mostly true, because the best surprise Martin can pull after so many false deaths twists - and especially after the "Davos is dead" letter- is there is no surprise this time)

Show problem is their checklist approach to tell the story. They keep the important plot points (here I think it's "Stannis finally lose") but botch context and characterization and make what could have been a great story, no matter if the "good" or "bad" side wins here, finally suspense less and uninteresting.

The show didn't spoil anything. Stannis may lose or he may win (I tend to think he will win but with heavy losses). The show is clearly in the business of condensing things as much as possible though so if Stannis dies later in Winds or early in Dream then they probably figured it was the same thing to kill him here.

In any case, Sansa and Theon need an army to rescue them so no doubt LF will swoop into save the day early next season.

ETA: The reason that Stannis really must win is because him losing doesn't do anything for the story. It keeps the Boltons in power and the status quo the same. Stannis may very well die after that, especially if the Great Northern Conspiracy is true.

[The Lord of Cinder]

I don't see why they should have changed the outcome if Stannis is to lose in the books (and don't understand why so many people still believe he'll magically win when the show just spoiled he won't).

What I see will very likely happen in Twow, as 7 days of battles are mentionned in the pink letter, is :

- 1st day of Battle : ice lake trap work against Frey's vanguard, making the reader believe Stannis could win (like the reader was made believe Oberyn could win)

- Most Manderly knights are killed by the trap too (first hint it won't end well), still a few defect

- 2nd day of Battle : Ramsay arrive, don't fall into the trap, attack the village by other sides

- Stannis succeeds to repell a first assault, still giving some hope

- 3rd day, Roose arrives with all remaining Bolton forces and decide to siege Stannis positions instead of continuing to attack

- days 4-6, the starving army of Stannis had a small chance to win in open battle but not to survive more days with nothing to eat

- day 7 heroic sortie attempt by Stannis, with some initial success giving some hope a last time, but where Stannis is finally defeated and (appears) killed

All that told in parallel with the Battle of Mereen, where the outcome will be better, making the readers expect even more that the side they root for will win in the two.

(and yes I think pink letter is written by Ramsay and mostly true, because the best surprise Martin can pull after so many false deaths twists - and especially after the "Davos is dead" letter- is there is no surprise this time)

Show problem is their checklist approach to tell the story. They keep the important plot points (here I think it's "Stannis finally lose") but botch context and characterization and make what could have been a great story, no matter if the "good" or "bad" side wins here, finally suspense less and uninteresting.

We already know from the Theon chapter that the battle hasn't happened yet and that Stannis is very much alive. Could be this Theon chapter happens before FTW, but that would be quite silly. I don't think GRRM would spoil the outcome of a huge battle just like that.

[Stag_legion]

We already know from the Theon chapter that the battle hasn't happened yet and that Stannis is very much alive. Could be this Theon chapter happens before FTW, but that would be quite silly. I don't think GRRM would spoil the outcome of a huge battle just like that.

it is probably before FTW, but it also strongly suggests that stannis will win the battle. For one if stannis losses then theon and asha will die with him too, and I don't think GRRM will take out two POVs just like that.

Most likely the pink letter has something to do with stannis giving misinformation to the boltons via the dreadfort maester he arrests.

[Modesty Lannister]

After the latest Elio and Linda video I have a crush on Linda. My kind of girl. Tells it like it is. No BS. And the fact they announced they would not be watching the show henceforth is very big. HBO trolls who came to this forum for the sole purpose of defending the show in recent weeks should pay attention. These are the people who worked closely with GRRM for years and created TWOIAF. This will not go unnoticed. Neither will the NYT review. So, trolling was a nice try, but the momentum is too big to be contained in such a way. The show is mortally wounded and if HBO does not react fast over the summer and bring in new writers and put Cogman in charge, it will die a horrible death. In the meantime, TWoW will be published and the show embarrassment will grow exponentially. Don't say you were not warned.

[HexMachina]

After the latest Elio and Linda video I have a crush on Linda. My kind of girl. Tells it like it is. No BS. And the fact they announced they would not be watching the show henceforth is very big. HBO trolls who came to this forum for the sole purpose of defending the show in recent weeks should pay attention. These are the people who worked closely with GRRM for years and created TWOIAF. This will not go unnoticed. Neither will the NYT review. So, trolling was a nice try, but the momentum is too big to be contained in such a way. The show is mortally wounded and if HBO does not react fact during the summer and bring in new writers and put Cogman in charge, it will die a horrible death. In the meantime, TWoW will be published and the show embarrassment will grow exponentially. Don't say you were not warned.

I'm hoping they go ahead with the overal season review like they said. Should be good, especially Dorne. :lol:

[William_Tell]

Hello... First post in the R&R thread. The last two episode of the season were such a huge disappointment for me. After the rather underwhelming start I thought that the show was going to improve after episode eight, (I still think Hardhome is one of the best episode of the series, but I reserve the right of a more critical rewatch) instead we got this. Episode nine was just saved by Drogon's flight for me. This one... meh....

To stay on topic: things I didn't like:

Stannis's farcical and humiliating ending and the silly battle. (the whole thing made no sense at all)

Unnecessary and over the top brutality for Arya and Trant.

Predictable poison kiss by Ellaria. ( Come on, is there anyone who didn't see that coming? and, oh, I was expecting some big reveal instead Dorne was just as pointless as it looked.)

Myrcella's "Dear Uncle-dad, I'm totally ok with incest"

Hizdar. Hizdar who? the king is dead and nobody cares?

The Benjen trolling

For the watch.

The last points actually made me realize that what some people were saying about show here is true:no one cares for the writing, it's all about the shock.

I had convinced myself that For the Watch wasn't going to happen this season ( or at all). I mean, it makes utterly no sense after Hardhome. Instead Jon doesn't tell anyone but Sam what had happened. If we must assume that he did it off-screen, it still doesn't make any sense since how on earth would Thorne and others not see that Jon had no option but take the wildling with him? Olly could still hold a grudge because of his parents but the others are all grown men, can't they admit that they are wrong? Thorne did it in season four!

And the Benjen trolling was just cruel. The more I think about it the more I feel cheated.

I wish I could still like the show like I used to, but right now I feel like I'm on the path to become a book snob.

Worst cinematic disappointment since The desolation of Smaug

[Attitude]

Stannis isn't going to lose against the Boltons. The show obviously was just trying to get rid of him. He almost certainly does die, but not here. And not in such a pathetic manner. The show runners probably just thought "eh, he doesn't win the Iron Throne, we can kill him off and it won't matter". Which is of course BS.

Nope. Even ignoring all the foreshadowing and the fallout of his potential death, we have Daenerys seeing herself fighting Stannis in her vision. He's not dying against the Boltons. Plus, there are way too many inconsistencies for Ramsay's letter to be what it appears.

Where did we see Daenerys fighting Stannis in a vision? How do we know that it's Stannis and how do we now we can take it literally?

[aFeastForDragons]

3000 sellswords leave with all the horses and nobody tells the King until the morning or tries to stop them.

3000 Bolton Calvary minutes away from the greatest military general in Westeros and he doesn't even notice.

An entire Dothraki horde coming down from the mountain and Dany doesn't even notice until they are right on her. Also no Drogon scene at the end, I guess the Bolton calvary stole the CGI budget.

Varys in Mereen? What a load of crap.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

In regards to Jon/Kit's future on the show....

Kara Thrace/Katee Sackoff... 'nuff said and just cause he's 'dead' doesn't mean he won't be back.

They are so bad they have to crib other shows PR stunts as well.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I feel stronlgy that in the books Jon will be resurrected by Mel but in the show....I don't know anything anymore cause what makes sense in normal world doesn't make sense to D&D and they have to make up their own story which is always a disaster.

Mel did teleporrt to the Wall,since wall and WF are like one afternoon horse ride away so who knows but I'm not holding my breath. Oh and if the wall was that close why didn't Stann send for more food....it's only half day ride away?