Maybe Stannis is still alive

[White Harbors Wrath]

Didn't the director say that they didn't show his death because it would have been too gratuitous? Granted, that's absolute nonsense after seeing Arya stab Trant's eyes out while he whimpered away....but why give any explanation at all if he's still alive? With Snow...they have the "dead is dead" rhetoric...so clearly they're not good with making up excuses. Why even explain why his death was off screen at all?

[Facebookless Man]

The gratuity excuse is stupid. Then again, the whole thing is stupid no matter what.

If the pink letter is true I have a hard time believing they passed up on Ramsay putting his head on a spike. But maybe they were engrossed with their magnificent batsignal plot and they really, really had to also butcher Brienne's character in the process with that ridiculous Rightful King Justice bullshit, and give us that breath taking twist with Sansa and the candle.

[MoreOrLess]

The obsession with Stannis being the greatest military leader seems somewhat shallow to me, the appeal of the story thus far is surely in terms of its characters and world building rather than cheering invincible heroes.

[Ben H'gahr]

The obsession with Stannis being the greatest military leader seems somewhat shallow to me, the appeal of the story thus far is surely in terms of its characters and world building rather than cheering invincible heroes.

check this one:

https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/a-complete-analysis-of-stannis-baratheon-as-a-military-commander/

[Ben H'gahr]

The question I have about his death and the dead in his army when Ramsay Bolton (Seriously? This Guy defeated Stannis?) crushed it is they probably won't even bother burning the bodies which means... We could have UnStannis and an army of Wights rise up to break Winterfell. Or... now this is completely out there... He's turned into a White Walker (that's the name for them in the show right?) and he's the white walker we see sitting on the Iron Throne in one of the visions.

I know crazy idea but... it would make for some interesting TV.

I don't know ... it would rather make for some rather absurd TV.

Also AFAIK the Whights do not have memory of their past lives and are mere meat puppets controlled by the WW. So how can a meat puppet make use of a skill they had in their past lives?

No offense, but this is (wild speculation)^5 IMO

[White Harbors Wrath]

The gratuity excuse is stupid. Then again, the whole thing is stupid no matter what.

If the pink letter is true I have a hard time believing they passed up on Ramsay putting his head on a spike. But maybe they were engrossed with their magnificent batsignal plot and they really, really had to also butcher Brienne's character in the process with that ridiculous Rightful King Justice bullshit, and give us that breath taking twist with Sansa and the candle.

With as much nonsensical stuff they crammed in, you really think they're concerned with Pink Letter details? D&D probably don't even know what the Pink letter is.

[Ben H'gahr]

With as much nonsensical stuff they crammed in, you really think they're concerned with Pink Letter details? D&D probably don't even know what the Pink letter is.

stupid question: Jon was reading a letter before he was FTW'd. I always had the impression that this is as much of the PL as we get (a reminiscence if you like.

Still: do you guys think that Stannis' death not being explicitely shown is supposed to imply sth / serve as a cliffhanger? Why in hell would they not show his death given how eager D&D are with portraying such things usually?

[Hajk]

Lets talk about character X:

X appears to be dead but X is not dead because:

• X is an extremely important character whose arc is not complete
  
• There are many indications in the books that can be read as indicating X's future survival so X is not dead
  
• X's death in the show is not shown in a way that seems believable and it is possible to nitpick around it
  
• X's death is not shown in a way that makes it clear to us that he is definitively irrevocably dead
  
• X will be central to many other on going plots and we can't see how they will go on without him
  
• Official sources indicating that he is dead are either purposefully lying to preserve the surprise, or in the dark about it themselves, with indications (e.g. D&D telling them etc.) being clever ruses by the D's.
  

Who is X?

1) Jon Snow,

OR

2) Stannis

Moreover, how likely is it that 2 X's have been put at exactly the same point point in exactly the same episode, rather than it being the case that book material has run out and fans desperately want their favorites to still be around?

[~DarkHorse~]

I can't see Stannis still being alive. If he is then he will be killed off early next season. It was a good conclusion to show!Stannis's story. It was a greek tragedy. He doomed himself from the moment he burned Shireen, he lost everything and he realized that at the end. He has lost his army, Melisandre, his family and Davos (who won't serve him after what he did to Shireen). What else is there for him to do? The people already had a difficult time accepting him as King, now he has no army and he is a kinslayer. He is finished.

I would rather see him go out like that ("Go on, do your duty") than trail along with Brienne and be used as a bargaining chip against the Boltons. That is no stannis the mannis (not that show!Stannis ever was that) that is a dog who lost his dignity. Also, the finale left allot of 'are they dead?' cliffhangers (Theon and Sansa, Stannis, Jon and Myrcella) we know Theon and Sansa will live and Jon most likely will too. They won't also pull that with Stannis. It would be cheap. However, I expect his body to appear as proof of his death. Hopefully, Brienne shows his body some dignity rather than leaving him for the Boltons. <_<

stupid question: Jon was reading a letter before he was FTW'd. I always had the impression that this is as much of the PL as we get (a reminiscence if you like.

Still: do you guys think that Stannis' death not being explicitely shown is supposed to imply sth / serve as a cliffhanger? Why in hell would they not show his death given how eager D&D are with portraying such things usually?

The letters Jon was reading were replies to the letters he sent out asking for support (when he was reluctant to ask the Boltons because they killed Robb). Someone on Reddit studied the letter and said it was from a Lord saying they had no men to spare. The same can be assumed for most of the replies.

[Ben H'gahr]

The letters Jon was reading were replies to the letters he sent out asking for support (when he was reluctant to ask the Boltons because they killed Robb). Someone on Reddit studied the letter and said it was from a Lord saying they had no men to spare. The same can be assumed for most of the replies.

Thx for the update!

[Ben H'gahr]

Lets talk about character X:

X appears to be dead but X is not dead because:

• X is an extremely important character whose arc is not complete

There are many indications in the books that can be read as indicating X's future survival so X is not dead

X's death in the show is not shown in a way that seems believable and it is possible to nitpick around it

X's death is not shown in a way that makes it clear to us that he is definitively irrevocably dead

X will be central to many other on going plots and we can't see how they will go on without him

Official sources indicating that he is dead are either purposefully lying to preserve the surprise, or in the dark about it themselves, with indications (e.g. D&D telling them etc.) being clever ruses by the D's.

Who is X?

1) Jon Snow,

OR

2) Stannis

Moreover, how likely is it that 2 X's have been put at exactly the same point point in exactly the same episode, rather than it being the case that book material has run out and fans desperately want their favorites to still be around?

I expected this from you :D thumbs up !

[Skulb]

stupid question: Jon was reading a letter before he was FTW'd. I always had the impression that this is as much of the PL as we get (a reminiscence if you like.

Still: do you guys think that Stannis' death not being explicitely shown is supposed to imply sth / serve as a cliffhanger? Why in hell would they not show his death given how eager D&D are with portraying such things usually?

What else could it be? They had better start S6 with a scene revealing whether or not Brienne actually killed him though, I`ll tell you that much. I mean she probably should for story and character purposes, considering her alegiance to Renley. And maybe she did. Stannis is more or less done as a pretender and military commander anyway I would think. But why not show it? The other main characters have foaming mouths, heads on spikes and get stabbed a billion times when they die. But not Stannis, who has been a main antagonist of everyone for five seasons? Doesn`t smell right to me at least. I think I can see a few ways to make use of Stannis now:

1: The leader of the wildlings against the Boltons and the traitorous NW.

2: Reanimated as a WW or something similar.

3: Gives up his claim and joins with Daenerys.

4: Maintains his claim but flees south to find troops.

5: Something else I`m not able to think of.

Personally I don`t like either of these except possibly :5. He should be dead now because his arch is done. But if he is we need to be shown his death or it`s just very bad TV.

[Philpenn]

The letters Jon was reading were replies to the letters he sent out asking for support (when he was reluctant to ask the Boltons because they killed Robb). Someone on Reddit studied the letter and said it was from a Lord saying they had no men to spare. The same can be assumed for most of the replies.

Impressive research. I was wondering what those letters said.

[Richard Writhen]

Yes two X's in accordance with your formula. The only difference is that Jon actually is dead and will be resurrected but Stannis isn't dead in the first place. The show has no tact, they aren't gonna rile viewers into a frenzy with Shireen's death then not show Stannis'. If he were really dead they would have not only shown the decapitation, in addition Brienne would have s**t down his neck onscreen if D+D had their way. It's a fake-out...

[Hajk]

Yes two X's in accordance with your formula. The only difference is that Jon actually is dead and will be resurrected but Stannis isn't dead in the first place. The show has no tact, they aren't gonna rile viewers into a frenzy with Shireen's death then not show Stannis'. If he were really dead they would have not only shown the decapitation, in addition Brienne would have s**t down his neck onscreen if D+D had their way. It's a fake-out...

If we want to be real nitpicky about things then one could just as well argue that Shireen didn't die but was just 'burned' a little bit:

After all her death wasn't actually shown. She was heard screaming but she was already screaming before the flames even touched her. So the screams don't really prove that Stannis had her sacrificed. And isn't it unlikely given how loving a father Stannis was shown to be that he would kill his beloved daughter like that? Doesn't that seem out of character?

Furthermore we have no mention of it from Stannis or anyone else next morning. Melisandre only mentions that the Lord of Light fulfilled his promise, but says nothing about the death of Shireen. Isn't it amazing that no one would mention it?

D&D already mentioned that Shireen's death came as a surprise to them as well when GRRM told them. This is probably misdirection on their part to surprise the viewers next season. The same is true for Kerry Ingram's tweets etc.

Finally, in the books Shireen is actually still at the wall. It is hard to see how this scene could happen in the context of the books. D&D may make some changes but they wouldn't alter Stannis' entire storyline just to make him and Melisandre look even worse. In fact they already brought Mel back to the wall to make things cohere better with the books. Killing Shireen seems pointless if the pink letter is true. And Mel wouldn't dare do it if the letter is false.

Finally why place Theon's fake burning of boys in the series earlier on and then have it recalled only one episode previously if not to recall that sort of faking motif?

So Shireen must still be alive.

[MoreOrLess]

The answer is pretty clear there, showing a young girl being burnt alive is far too gruesome even for this series, her screams and the other characters reactions surely make it very obvious that she's indeed been killed.

I tend to side with Stannis being dead as has been said the character as has been presented feels complete but the edit and indeed the idea that the show was looking to recreate the audience reaction of the Pink Letter does introduce some uncertainy. It would potentially mean we have multiple fake deaths happening in one episode but then again the key there is surely when there actually revealed as fake? A lot of theories have Jon staying dead for a good deal of time. Indeed you could argue that the Jon situation actually offers good "cover" for other potential character not being dead.

I would tend to agree with Skulb that merely having Stannis live and follow the same course he was would feel cheap and even contradictory to that final scene, some shift in character would surely be needed. I do think that with Dilane though that could well be carried off. He could play Stannis as a broken man who moves towards some kind of redemption or indeed revenge on Mel and not have it appear like an unrealistic shift. IMHO.

[Lord Friendzone]

What else could it be? They had better start S6 with a scene revealing whether or not Brienne actually killed him though, I`ll tell you that much. I mean she probably should for story and character purposes, considering her alegiance to Renley. And maybe she did. Stannis is more or less done as a pretender and military commander anyway I would think. But why not show it? The other main characters have foaming mouths, heads on spikes and get stabbed a billion times when they die. But not Stannis, who has been a main antagonist of everyone for five seasons? Doesn`t smell right to me at least. I think I can see a few ways to make use of Stannis now:

1: The leader of the wildlings against the Boltons and the traitorous NW. Wildings would never ever accept him as their leader. Jon explained this very clearly to Davos. He burned their king alive.

2: Reanimated as a WW or something similar. Stannis is better than this.Come one

3: Gives up his claim and joins with Daenerys. I love Dany, but I would rather see him going out like this...than surrender to anyone. Some pride.

4: Maintains his claim but flees south to find troops.

5: Something else I`m not able to think of.

Personally I don`t like either of these except possibly :5. He should be dead now because his arch is done. But if he is we need to be shown his death or it`s just very bad TV.

I would love to see him alive, but I just don't see any reason to do this. Although his death is somehow fishy.

[Facebookless Man]

the idea that the show was looking to recreate the audience reaction of the Pink Letter does introduce some uncertainty.

I would tend to agree with Skulb that merely having Stannis live and follow the same course he was would feel cheap and even contradictory to that final scene, some shift in character would surely be needed.

I agree that it deosn't work at all as a replacement for the Pink Letter if Stannis lives, but it's hard to see that as any kind of evidence when missing the mark is basically the norm with the show writers.

[Ben H'gahr]

What else could it be? They had better start S6 with a scene revealing whether or not Brienne actually killed him though, I`ll tell you that much. I mean she probably should for story and character purposes, considering her alegiance to Renley. And maybe she did. Stannis is more or less done as a pretender and military commander anyway I would think. But why not show it? The other main characters have foaming mouths, heads on spikes and get stabbed a billion times when they die. But not Stannis, who has been a main antagonist of everyone for five seasons? Doesn`t smell right to me at least. I think I can see a few ways to make use of Stannis now:

1: The leader of the wildlings against the Boltons and the traitorous NW.

2: Reanimated as a WW or something similar.

3: Gives up his claim and joins with Daenerys.

4: Maintains his claim but flees south to find troops.

5: Something else I`m not able to think of.

Personally I don`t like either of these except possibly :5. He should be dead now because his arch is done. But if he is we need to be shown his death or it`s just very bad TV.

1) IIRC D&D mentioned in the "Inside the Episode" that they did not want to "further humiliate Stannis" (paraphrasing) or so, do you think this could be a reason not to show his death explicitely?

2) He said "do your duty" where his last words (better than "Olly" lol)

The options for Stannis seem rather unlikely to me, except 5: His arc is done in the show at least and D&D want to eliminate characters so they can hurry to the endgame. Nevertheless, I always liked Stannis somehow and for me (risking to become really unpopular now) the sacrifice of Shireen, despite its cruelty, was not out of character for me. For this I wish Stannis to remain alive b/c I really like his character: the guy who always came second, did his duty w/o complaining, learnt what defeat means (black water) but gains what is his right (or at least what he considers as such) with skill and expertise. I personally like this, but of course (at least in the show) the sacrifice of Shireen stains this.

[Marcus Agrippa]

There is a lot just left opened with Stannis's death if he died. The iron bank plot, the northern lords, davos, sansa, rickon, mels visions, and shireens death.