[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Woman of War]

It would've been best. Sansa's character is no more, and LF's severely damaged just for the sheer scope of his stupidity - He's marrying Sansa to someone he barely even knows who it is and hopes she can charm him based on one sentence?

I don' t want to provoke you or anyone else, I ask because I am really interested in the answer:

How do you see book Sansa, after the TWOW chapter if you have read it, what do you think how her story might go on?

And in which way is HBO Sansa different in her personality, what might be HBO Sansa's perspective, her personal development different from book Sansa?

In short: What might book Sansa do in the future what HBO Sansa couldn't?

What might HBO Sansa do what book Sansa could not?

And what could any of them NOT do when her story goes on?

I'd really like to know opinions and rather not read any show bashing for the sake of show bashing.

[Lord Freypie]

The ends justify the means in the world of D&D. And the ends in this case were Sansa being raped and abused by Ramsay.

The end was to get some internet outrage publicity.

And anyone who complained in blogs, tweets or mainstream articles comments, helped them reach this end, think about that.

Morality : complain only on westeros.org, as the press don't care for book purists who always complain anyway, it won't give them any publicity. :)

[A Ghost of Someone]

It's such a waste of golden source material. Say what you want about Feast and Dance, but Theon's chapters are some of the most compelling in the entire series. What makes it worse is that, if they've been planning this for 3 years, they didn't even lay some sort of foundation for this Winterfell story to take place.

Really, you would think that they would have had ample time to prepare and modify the plotlines to make better sense of this route as each season progressed eventually into this one that we just saw. You can look from Sansa's last appearance in Season 4, with Littlefinger, SweetRobin, Royce and Waynewood in the Eyrie, Sophie as Sansa was happy coming down those stairs, liberated and free for the first time in her show's existance. Then, by the time episode one aired, we knew she as taking Jeyne Poole's place. Episode one, she looked depressed. I would love to get a true, no bullshit Q & A with Sophie Turner regarding season 4 and 5 and what she and Aiden Gillen REALLY think about this divergence from the flowing Story arc. Now, we know they would not dump on D&D and Cogman but I do not think they are stupid and have to be very dissapointed at how pointless this season was regarding their characters and joined storyline. I bet their friends and families are tellling them the truth though. It was awful.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

They're trying to re-create the Joffery Effect™, a character you love to hate and takes a few seasons to kill.

Unfortnuately, no one loves to hate Ramsay - he's simply hated. Bad writing.

Not at all.

Ramsay is the hero of the Winterfell story while Joffery was always the antagonist.

Shireen's burning highlights this. It had one simple reason. To make Stannis the bad guy. To make the audience cheer when he got curb-stomped by Ramsay.

He's not to replace Joffery. If anything, he's to replace Jon. He is the *authors' avatar. They may kill him, but it will an epic bad-ass death and/or **tragic.

*Authors being the show creators of course, not GRRM.

**They will try to make it tragic at least. Of course, they probably thought their Dornish plot was good. So, who knows, it'll probably be unintentionally hilarious. Though they will be gushing how great Ramsay was and how sad it was to see him go.

[Mirante]

" it can be said officially, not than no one has been saying it until now, that her character ABSOLUTELY DID NOT HAVE TO BE RAPED AT ALL."

Er... why ? Do you think it would be more reasonable that it was *consensual* with Ramsay, who has been characterised as an absolute fiend. I don't get it at all when people say things don't 'need' to happen. Nothing 'needs' to happen at all.

In fact if anything it depicted her terrible suffering at the hands of Ramsay. It performed a story-telling function. Did I like it? No. We were not meant to enjoy it.

[Borodin]

" it can be said officially, not than no one has been saying it until now, that her character ABSOLUTELY DID NOT HAVE TO BE RAPED AT ALL."

Er... why ? Do you think it would be more reasonable that it was *consensual* with Ramsay, who has been characterised as an absolute fiend. I don't get it at all when people say things don't 'need' to happen. Nothing 'needs' to happen at all.

It would be more reasonble if she wasn't in Winterfell at all. It did not need to happen because in the books Sansa is in the Vale not Winterfell, and had the show remained faithful to the books none of the plot/character mess that was Sansa in Winterfell would have occured.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I don' t want to provoke you or anyone else, I ask because I am really interested in the answer:

How do you see book Sansa, after the TWOW chapter if you have read it, what do you think how her story might go on?

And in which way is HBO Sansa different in her personality, what might be HBO Sansa's perspective, her personal development different from book Sansa?

In short: What might book Sansa do in the future what HBO Sansa couldn't?

What might HBO Sansa do what book Sansa could not?

And what could any of them NOT do when her story goes on?

I'd really like to know opinions and rather not read any show bashing for the sake of show bashing.

Given the last sample chapter in early April. Sansa as "Allayne" has met Harry "The Heir Hardying" and he is a womanizing, pomous asshole. Littlefinger is whording foods for winter and is bribing people left and right, there is a "bounty hunter" type of guy who has snuck into the service of LF and is looking for Sansa, its is suspected he knows who she is and he is working for Varys but might sell info or her to the highest bidder. Interesting, Sansa admits to herself that she does not think she can get married as long as tyrion lives but it was not consummated and it is known that the high septon could "put asside" an unconsummated marriage. There is SweetRobin who is growing his hair out and Sansa likes it but she thinks he is going to die. He is smitten with her, "puppy love" and wants to marry her so she can snuggle and read to him every night. He may be the only person who truly cares for her, yet, she overlooks that as "foolish". There is also this, SweetRobin is not dumb, he knows Harry the Heir is waiting for him to die to take over the Vale and the Eyrie. He can see right through him. It ends with a big ball/dance before a tournament to appoint 8 "winged knights" to become SweetRobin's personal guards. Sansa is flirting with Harry to make him want to marry her based on directions by LF. There is also foreshadowing that there are people who do not want Littlefinger to remain in power there and maybe double cross him. And, interesting enough, Myranda Royce, Lord Royce's daughter, a gossip and smart is in love with Harry the Heir and wants him for herself. She may also suspect Sansa is "posing" as Allayne and cannot be trusted. Her and Sansa share a room.

Something is going to happen in TWOW that should open Sansa's story wide open. Pity, we will never see it onscreen.

[Mirante]

I'm not in agreement with much of the screen adaption but the outcrys of misogyny around Sansa are very far-fetched with the massive amount of violence in all directions to men women and children.

[starklover]

It appears that this was decided upon by the big 3 and they kept it to themselves for 3 years until writting the official scripts for season 5, D&D and Cogman. They are responsible and it was all about Sansa being the rape victim of Ramsay and getting her and Theon to jump off the wall. That is it, that is all, and they scrapped everything else about the Northern, Winterfell plotline to do it. Oh, they did have Stannis fail and get killed but who cares, we got the rape scene, yeah!!!!!!

They should of cut her out for season 5. They could have done with a lot of breanne. she could have been killing some of the boltons guards, but all they had her do was stand there waiting for a candle!

[starklover]

Not at all.

Ramsay is the hero of the Winterfell story while Joffery was always the antagonist.

Shireen's burning highlights this. It had one simple reason. To make Stannis the bad guy. To make the audience cheer when he got curb-stomped by Ramsay.

He's not to replace Joffery. If anything, he's to replace Jon. He is the *authors' avatar. They may kill him, but it will an epic bad-ass death and/or **tragic.

*Authors being the show creators of course, not GRRM.

**They will try to make it tragic at least. Of course, they probably thought their Dornish plot was good. So, who knows, it'll probably be unintentionally hilarious. Though they will be gushing how great Ramsay was and how sad it was to see him go.

How is ramsay the hero of the winterfell story? Did I miss something?

[A Ghost of Someone]

I'm not in agreement with much of the screen adaption but the outcrys of misogyny around Sansa are very far-fetched with the massive amount of violence in all directions to men women and children.

The show creators thought they were doing everyone a favor, including the actor and actress by not showing the physical rape but instead the lead up and letting us hear it. However when they did that, as many, many others have pointed out, they made it about Theon by using his eyes and tears as he was forced to watch. When they did that, they should have simply not done this at all. Instead, the could have had the wedding take place in either the last or second last episode, have Theon snap before Ramsay raped her / maybe coincide with Stannis marching throught the night and launching a surpise attack and he and Sansa escape but, no, they wanted to make sure we knew that Sansa was raped by Ramsay and it was happening every night. The Rape and our knowledge of it and the repeated ones were what mattered.

[A Ghost of Someone]

How is ramsay the hero of the winterfell story? Did I miss something?

The show seems to be all about the villains. Ramsay is always winning. The Boltons get all the breaks. Ramsay gets Sansa. Ramsay has taken the place of Joffrey as the new most hated character. The Villains !

[Borodin]

I'm not in agreement with much of the screen adaption but the outcrys of misogyny around Sansa are very far-fetched with the massive amount of violence in all directions to men women and children.

It is not a requirement of misogyny that violence be directed at women only.

[starklover]

I don't get how ramsay is always wining. Can't anyone take him out? good thing theon killed myranda because she was horrible.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

How is ramsay the hero of the winterfell story? Did I miss something?

He was so awesome. His twenty good men were all ninjaing Stannis. He had touching moments with his dad who loves him despite being distant. He kept the woman he loved despite being forced to marry another. He was all badass stomping Stannis's army. That fucker was evil. He burned his own daughter. Sure, he raped and tortured, but boys will be boys.

But seriously, he was defintely the protagonist even if "hero" is questionable. But I actually think D&D want us to root for him. Thus, I refer to him as the hero of the story.

[starklover]

He was so awesome. His twenty good men were all ninjaing Stannis. He had touching moments with his dad who loves him despite being distant. He kept the woman he loved despite being forced to marry another. He was all badass stomping Stannis's army. That fucker was evil. He burned his own daughter. Sure, he raped and tortured, but boys will be boys.

But seriously, he was defintely the protagonist even if "hero" is questionable. But I actually think D&D want us to root for him. Thus, I refer to him as the hero of the story.

yeah i get it now. Did he even love myranda?

[starklover]

does anyone think that ramsay is going to try to kill theon for killing myranda?

[A Ghost of Someone]

does anyone think that ramsay is going to try to kill theon for killing myranda?

must find him, catch him but how would he know Theon did it? I think Theon dies in the fall but maybe not.

[Woman of War]

......

Something is going to happen in TWOW that should open Sansa's story wide open. Pity, we will never see it onscreen.

To answer this sentence first: yes, I agree that something serious is going to happen in TWOW. But I predict it will be nearly as horrible as the Ramsay marriage and it will shape Sansa in a similiar manner.

Actually this TWOW chapter was entertaining, cute and playful, a girl's adventure, Pride and Prejudice style. And I am convinced that all will go desastrously wrong for Sansa. This chapter is meant to make us believe that Sansa might be safe at the moment. Only she isn't.

So where is Sansa now, in case she will escape, and she will?

Book Sansa is married to Tyrion, she cannot remarry, only under a false name.

Show Sansa is married to Ramsay, she cannot remarry either.

But show Sansa cannot be sold as virginal bride into the next marriage plot by any schemer, she is less "valuable" now on a patriarchial marriage market. Which would happen as well if she married Harry.

Basically this is all we know at the moment. I am not discussing the serious damage to her person by rape, cynical as it may read, I believe Martin will write something alike.

Ok. She is burned as virginal bride, meaning as prize breeding cow. She will have to actively get herself into the position she wants.

Would that stop her from entering into a position of power if Martin and the show want her to? No, why should it, the plot can always be constructed that way: as "Queen of the North" if Rickon and Bran are dead, as Rickon's guardian, as Tyrion's wife, even as queen if she gets the blacksmith, Gendry, Jaime joked about.

She could get pregnant from an abusive husband in the Vale just like from Ramsay, if Martin wants her pregnant.

And she could choose to withdraw from the world and live a remote life, happy and lots of good sex, with the nicest squire imaginable, you know whom.

Meaning: In my opinion her story is far from over because she fell into Ramsay's hands. This is no more than foreshadowing of what may happen to her in the next book. And even then, if Sansa does not die, Martin has every option to give her a story.

What could Sansa not do after her HBO arc that she could have done after AFFC and that TWOW chapter?

Maybe I missed something, not being polemic here.

(Yes, I got it. Sansa agreed too easily to LF's plan and Baelish is not a master schemer if he does not know about Ramsay's hobbies) But I liked the Winterfell story better than her Vale arc. I loved the weird beauty of the wedding ceremony, I loved Reek and the interaction of Ramsay, Sansa and Roose, I enjoyed the soundtrack. The filming of the rape scene was well done imo, far more impressing than showing the actual action. And Sophie Turner was great as actress. Apart from that I enjoyed her Botticelli beauty in that winter light, soft and cold at the same time.

Sorry. Plenty of reasons to like Sansa's Winterfell story. I am looking very much forward to her crawling out of the snow.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don' t want to provoke you or anyone else, I ask because I am really interested in the answer:

How do you see book Sansa, after the TWOW chapter if you have read it, what do you think how her story might go on?

And in which way is HBO Sansa different in her personality, what might be HBO Sansa's perspective, her personal development different from book Sansa?

In short: What might book Sansa do in the future what HBO Sansa couldn't?

What might HBO Sansa do what book Sansa could not?

And what could any of them NOT do when her story goes on?

I'd really like to know opinions and rather not read any show bashing for the sake of show bashing.

I'm going to try to answer to you in my most severe non-show bashing. I'll start by making clear that I've read the books during season 2, and Sansa only became my favorite character whilst reading those - Being a show only watcher, I was deeply impressed with Dany's journey and went on to read the books because of it. so I'm not against the Tv Show for the sake of them butchering my head-canon or anything of the sort.

Now, this isn't as much as what will happen than what we know will not happen. I'm not interested in sharing what I think will happen. I'm more than sure Sansa's being set up to be the political Stark, and to take LF down and retake Winterfell with the Vale armies. But that's not really my point. I'm sure if she does these things on the books, they will be done so in the series. I'm not doubting their ability to retcon. Therefore, answering your question, Show!Sansa can and probably will check off Book!Sansa's plot points. Yohn Royce was confirmed for season six as well, so not surprising.

The matter of a fact is, that said, it's that Sansa won't be raped by Ramsay in her childhood home, that I'm sure. I do think she will have consensual sex, but let's face it, that's a far cry from what happened. If Sansa was allowed to be a consistent character, she wouldn't have reacted the way she did this season, because I just don't think LF yelling revenge to her would have made her choose to go to Winterfell, to marry among the family that killed hers. The plan made little sense, and her characterization from the books and the show (Sansa becoming the manipulative Alayne) was discarded to show a new Sansa that had barely any logic to the previous version. I hated Darth!Sansa, but at least it seemed to convey their take on Alayne upped to eleven. Who is Sansa Bolton?

In short, Sansa will hit most plot-points she did on the books, but by the character they built, none of it even matters. Her "make them yours" bit differs from her book!persona, as she considered that reffusing to toast and laughing at Ramsay?! It's also insulting that her character only really was there to be raped. And it's hard to deny that when the season's over and Sansa did nothing of significance except being raped by Ramsay. She also yelled at Theon, I guess. It just seemed gratuitous violence, and they took it far enough to make her act Jeyne at some points (Begging Theon to help her), then a character completely erratic (The bastard bit, because that's what a rape victim would do), then dialed back to screaming Sansa and concluding her arc as a quasi-Jeyne-but-not-really Sansa waiting to be rescued. What happened to "Life is not a song?" "Lies and Arbor Gold?" Can we say Sansa stretched any of her abilities (According to George, her wits) this season? It just seemed to service that shock moment, all of it. And this isn't even touching in how the storyline sucked and how Theon's arc got the shaft (Because he couldn't care about a nobody, which is the point of his arc!)

Sansa will hit her plot points, but as she's a very different character with a very different journey, I find it weird that she'd go with the manipulation bit, or why she'll even try to go to Winterfell with LF and the Vale. It will bring her bad memories. But since I'm sure she'll have plot-indulged amnesia, it won't matter that much.

Just adding one more, I laso think the show's a lot more violent and abusive than George's books in regards to the Stark family. It's hanging on Darkness Apathy, because every character either becomes a monster or is abused by one. I think Sansa's been done with abuse and it just seemed to be a repeat of something we have already seen before. But that's entering into their bad storytelling, and it's gonna take another 5 paragraphs. I do give them the aesthetics of Sansa's wedding and her beautiful gown, and Sophie nailed her scenes, but that's not enough.