[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[voodooqueen126]

Especially since one of them has already spent the last few days/weeks raping her EVERY NIGHT! People like to hold that up as Sansa's big "awesome standing up for herself moment" this season, but it just makes her look like a complete idiot. Well going to WF with the "justification" that LF gave her already did that, but this definitely made it worse. And they're not even consistent about it since her "defiance" seems to come and go with no rhythm or reason to it.

In the end, her character arc was accepting her own death.

That's not gaining strength, that's not overcoming ones situation, that's defeat, pure and simple

[Doremus Coldwater]

End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.

Good analysis. One other point: The idea that Sansa would survive an outcome where Stannis defeats the Boltons and takes Winterfell is downright absurd. The Boltons (especially, but not exclusively if they might escape and live to fight another day) would make damn sure to keep Sansa out of Stannis' hands (by killing her, if becessary).

[Doremus Coldwater]

Placing Sansa in Winterfell means that she is physically in danger - which I acknowledge is probably enough to convince the Lords of the Vale to go save her, but that's completely unnecessary.

Also, how in seven hells is LF going to explain to Royce and Waynwood (who already distrusted him to begin) how Sansa ended up in Winterfell despite being under her protection (and supposedly going back to the Eyrie from Runestone in Ep1)?

[Pies are coming]

Also, how in seven hells is LF going to explain to Royce and Waynwood (who already distrusted him to begin) how Sansa ended up in Winterfell despite being under her protection (and supposedly going back to the Eyrie from Runestone in Ep1)?

He couldn't stop her, of course, or something along those lines. The really complicated part, if LF wants to go that way, is explaining why would he be executing her as Cersei told him to in order to become Warden of the North

[TheCasualObserver]

He couldn't stop her, of course, or something along those lines. The really complicated part, if LF wants to go that way, is explaining why would he be executing her as Cersei told him to in order to become Warden of the North

The hole there is that LF has to kill Sansa to appease Cersei (which doesn't seem like something he would do considering Cersei is a on a down slope and doesn't have men to send north anyway) but can't invade the North with the help of the Vale lords if that is his plan. So in order for him to keep this situation going, he'd need to tell the Vale Lords that the Bolton's kidnapped Sansa, have them seize Winterfell in an effort to save her, somehow kill Sansa and make it look like an accident to keep the Vale lords happy (or at least not hostile), then palm it off as an execution to achieve ratification from Cersei, assuming she survives her trial and still has political capital left.

But he still loses Sansa, is stuck holding hostile territory with troops who hold no definitive loyalty to him and had the friendship of Cersei just as she is about to be toppled. And this is a best case scenario. Insanity.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The show has become too big for D&D's own collective "good". They took way too many liberties with the Sansa/Littlefinger story in season 5 and it cost them credibiltiy as writers and creators. Sansa's show character looks really, really stupid after this and I do not see how that can be salvaged, Littlefinger should be in a real pickle over this regarding the Vale lords,and explaining but I am sure they will brush it asside just like they did with Sansa and Tyrion's non - consummated marriage. I am curious for season 6, just to see how they intend to move forward with this Winterfell/Sansa fuck up (pun intended).

[Tagganaro]

The show has become too big for D&D's own collective "good". They took way too many liberties with the Sansa/Littlefinger story in season 5 and it cost them credibiltiy as writers and creators. Sansa's show character looks really, really stupid after this and I do not see how that can be salvaged, Littlefinger should be in a real pickle over this regarding the Vale lords,and explaining but I am sure they will brush it asside just like they did with Sansa and Tyrion's non - consummated marriage. I am curious for season 6, just to see how they intend to move forward with this Winterfell/Sansa fuck up (pun intended).

Yes, the Sansa/LF stuff this year was atrocious. That's not even going into Winterfell itself, which was arguably even worse. How are you gonna force Sansa into this marriage in order to legitimize Bolton rule to the North...and then entirely cut out "the North" from the show.

They've become victims of their own success in that they are constantly looking for the Red Wedding 2.0...A show built on shocking moments needs to constantly have and create such moments in order to maintain that attention. I think Sansa/LF, and the entire North/Winterfell plot, were victims of that mentality. The show is being dragged along from shocking event to shocking event, with little build and attention paid to detail along the journey to get to each shocking event.

I mean, on any level of rational scrutiny, nothing about Winterfell/Sansa/LF holds up. It's really just very poor writing and endemic to Season 5...Look no further than Stannis/Shireen (which actually received a fair amount of build compared to Sansa, but still not nearly enough) and the Ides of Thorne.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Yes, the Sansa/LF stuff this year was atrocious. That's not even going into Winterfell itself, which was arguably even worse. How are you gonna force Sansa into this marriage in order to legitimize Bolton rule to the North...and then entirely cut out "the North" from the show.

They've become victims of their own success in that they are constantly looking for the Red Wedding 2.0...A show built on shocking moments needs to constantly have and create such moments in order to maintain that attention. I think Sansa/LF, and the entire North/Winterfell plot, were victims of that mentality. The show is being dragged along from shocking event to shocking event, with little build and attention paid to detail along the journey to get to each shocking event.

I mean, on any level of rational scrutiny, nothing about Winterfell/Sansa/LF holds up. It's really just very poor writing and endemic to Season 5...Look no further than Stannis/Shireen (which actually received a fair amount of build compared to Sansa, but still not nearly enough) and the Ides of Thorne.

Yeah, the thing is, the viewers are there, will be there and have never and will never leave, so, with that known, why not tell a consistant story that moves foreward major characters like Sansa and Littlefinger? The only answer that comes back to me as the most plausable one is that they wanted Sansa in a rape/sex scene but considering how little of her and Ramsay were in it, I wonder, nausiatingly, if they attempted to press Sophie Turner to show "more" but this was all they got? This is a fleshy show, this why I think this may have been a likely reason. I keep thinking that they wrote it, looking for that "world premier" of Sophie Turner in the flesh but once the scripts were written, she was like, uh, lets talk about this. If so, good for her.

[Pies are coming]

The problem isn't the rape per se. A storyline about Sansa in Winterfell which includes rebellious Northern Lords, an attempt (successful or not) by Sansa to take down the Boltons from the inside and, yes, a marital rape because Sansa chickens out at the last minute, could still be a compelling storyline.

But, instead, we lack conflict for half a season, we then get a half-assed prison break story and end up with a supposed protagonist probably dead and a decisive victory by the bad guys.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The problem isn't the rape per se. A storyline about Sansa in Winterfell which includes rebellious Northern Lords, an attempt (successful or not) by Sansa to take down the Boltons from the inside and, yes, a marital rape because Sansa chickens out at the last minute, could still be a compelling storyline.

But, instead, we lack conflict for half a season, we then get a half-assed prison break story and end up with a supposed protagonist probably dead and a decisive victory by the bad guys.

Another great way to sum it up. Yep. There was potential for this to be done with more intrigue, anxiety with Sansa there "incognito" with littlefinger posing as her father while he was on a "diplomatic mission" and having a real "Jeyne Poole" there, who as well as Theon/Reek, secretly recognizing Sansa and vice versa but stuggling to keep it "hush-hush" could have easlily be done with almost no extra cast. Instead, Sansa needs to be raped and look like a season 2 victim again, No Wyman, No Freys. Stannis dies at the end and to establish what? Oh, Theon snaps out of it, why? Was Sansa raped for that purpose? No, the sex scene was desired, pure and simple. They wanted it and they got one, oh and her and theon jumped. that is it.

[TheCasualObserver]

Also, how in seven hells is LF going to explain to Royce and Waynwood (who already distrusted him to begin) how Sansa ended up in Winterfell despite being under her protection (and supposedly going back to the Eyrie from Runestone in Ep1)?

I'd actually forgotten about that one. You're right, it makes no sense. Theoretically LF is relying on Sansa to lie for him about how she got to Winterfell (an abduction or something) which absolves him of blame. It would still harm his credibility though. Additionally, this would be LF once again relying on his ability to read Sansa (as he did at the end of Season 4 when he threw himself on her mercy) except she's been placed into a situation he knew nothing about.

It's an example of LF's powers of omnipotence dropping out only when the plot needs something to happen.

Seeing the writers bullshit their way out of this little knot is one of the only reasons why I will tune in next season.

[Christi84]

The problem isn't the rape per se. A storyline about Sansa in Winterfell which includes rebellious Northern Lords, an attempt (successful or not) by Sansa to take down the Boltons from the inside and, yes, a marital rape because Sansa chickens out at the last minute, could still be a compelling storyline.

But, instead, we lack conflict for half a season, we then get a half-assed prison break story and end up with a supposed protagonist probably dead and a decisive victory by the bad guys.

Exactly. No word put out of Sansa marrying Ramsay, nor any of the Lords at the wedding that would've helped secure the Bolton hold. Instead, the writers completely undermine what Roose said about holding the North of Ramsay and 20 good men can just sabotage and destroy a camp. You would think that for all of LF's 'avenge them' speech that having Sansa in WF would've meant someone was going to die. They put the Manderly 'The North Remembers' line in and what did the North remember? They dont exist and the Starks will never get revenge...unless you're Arya and training to be an assassin. It was way too obvious they just want weddings to be the shocker but they can't grasp that the Red Wedding had so many specific plot points that made it that much more effective and that's why it was not only so awful in the book, but also in the show. All D&D got out of these wedding was basically 2 instances of adults raping children-yes Margaery and Tommen is consensual, but he looked 12 and it was gross; and Sansa is meant to be a teen while id assume Ramsay to be an adult even if barely.

My assumption is that Sansa will kill LF for betraying her by sending her to a monster, but knowing this show I doubt it

[Tagganaro]

Exactly. No word put out of Sansa marrying Ramsay, nor any of the Lords at the wedding that would've helped secure the Bolton hold. Instead, the writers completely undermine what Roose said about holding the North of Ramsay and 20 good men can just sabotage and destroy a camp. You would think that for all of LF's 'avenge them' speech that having Sansa in WF would've meant someone was going to die. They put the Manderly 'The North Remembers' line in and what did the North remember? They dont exist and the Starks will never get revenge...unless you're Arya and training to be an assassin. It was way too obvious they just want weddings to be the shocker but they can't grasp that the Red Wedding had so many specific plot points that made it that much more effective and that's why it was not only so awful in the book, but also in the show. All D&D got out of these wedding was basically 2 instances of adults raping children-yes Margaery and Tommen is consensual, but he looked 12 and it was gross; and Sansa is meant to be a teen while id assume Ramsay to be an adult even if barely.

My assumption is that Sansa will kill LF for betraying her by sending her to a monster, but knowing this show I doubt it

I mean, yeah, the one thing I keep coming back to about this season is how do you adapt AFFC and ADWD and decide to cut out White Harbor and Frey Pie? They are like the most memorably awesome moment of the books and one of the few "Fuck Yeah" moments available to the writers. When they sent Sansa to Winterfell I had high hopes that they were simply transposing Sansa's Eyrie story to Winterfell-- i.e. she would be learning politics and gauging Northern Lord's loyalty and inclinations instead of doing it in the Eyrie. I was horrified to discover in Episode 6 that no, they weren't transposing Sansa's story, they were transposing Jeyne Poole's story and cutting out Sansa's entirely.

The Ramsay stuff has become too much. It's torture porn basically. In the books he's awful as well, but people forget that we don't see that up close until Reek's POV in ADWD. So while the Jeyne Poole/Winterfell stuff with Ramsay was highly disturbing, it also served some sort of purpose in establishing just what kind of monster Ramsay was...and even then it was over the top in the books.

But the show decided to SHOW almost an entire season of Ramsay's awfulness with him turning Theon into Reek. We already know that Ramsay is a totally awful monster and have seen it up close for a while now...What point is served by further demonstrating this in WF?

The Tommen stuff weirds me out so much because presumably they aged him up solely for that bedding scene? Other than that he is basically playing the same ineffectual ruler role that he has in the books, just a little older. It's just so odd to me because I feel like they took what could have been a really fun and lighthearted aspect of the show (cute little Tommen and Ser Pounce and all that) and turned it much darker for no apparent reason.

[Hayyoth]

Another great way to sum it up. Yep. There was potential for this to be done with more intrigue, anxiety with Sansa there "incognito" with littlefinger posing as her father while he was on a "diplomatic mission" and having a real "Jeyne Poole" there, who as well as Theon/Reek, secretly recognizing Sansa and vice versa but stuggling to keep it "hush-hush" could have easlily be done with almost no extra cast. Instead, Sansa needs to be raped and look like a season 2 victim again, No Wyman, No Freys. Stannis dies at the end and to establish what? Oh, Theon snaps out of it, why? Was Sansa raped for that purpose? No, the sex scene was desired, pure and simple. They wanted it and they got one, oh and her and theon jumped. that is it.

Yeah this. Sansa agreeing to go to WF in the first place is one of the most outright ridiculous things I've seen in a serious drama. Why????? They've definitely written themselves into a corner but I doubt it'll bother them at all. When they get to an important plot juncture instead of taking time with set up and exposition they just DO it coz reasons. When the Vale Lords ride north to invade the North an audience member might ask why the Vale Lords would be risking thousands of men on the instruction of an outsider with no standing or real authority, we won't be told, it'll be coz reasons. When Theon decided to rescue Sansa, having spent all preceding scenes refusing to help her, there's no explanation, it's coz reasons. When Roose marries off Ramsay to Sansa to 'gain the support of the north' we don't see a single fucking northern Lord for a whole fucking season, but we're not told why it's coz reasons. Who gives a shit about common sense or logic when you got coz reasons?

[Tagganaro]

Its very easy how they will move forward.

LF will show up in ep 1 or 2 and may find Sansa on the run or not find her.

Either way, the Boltons will open the gates of WF for him because they trust him. Bolton massacre just like Tywin did to Aerys.

LF will then have WF. Most likely he will have Sansa too and she will fall in love with him for saving her from the monster Ramsay.

Sansa will then send Brienne or Davos to find Rickon. Rickon will be put in charge of WF in name while Sansa / LF hold all the power.

Then the 2 of them march south with Northern lords / Vale army to finish off Walder Frey & take Riverrun. Here they may run into Jaime who has been sent north by Cersei to find Sansa but instead betrays her and joins Sansa instead.

This aligns everyone with their book arcs. Roughly.

Is this sarcasm? I mean, I wouldn't put anything past D & D, especially as far as making LF a hero goes, but this does not align with book arcs at all, especially since I think Sansa is destined to kill LF in Winterfell per the Ghost of HH's prophecy.

It's far more likely that LF finds Sansa, takes over WF, but then she takes "revenge" for LF sending her to Ramsay, despite the show's bizarre decision to have Sansa explicitly consent and agree to go to WF on the vague promise of "revenge", and then seemingly back out after the marriage happens.

[Creepyfinger]

Is this sarcasm? I mean, I wouldn't put anything past D & D, especially as far as making LF a hero goes, but this does not align with book arcs at all, especially since I think Sansa is destined to kill LF in Winterfell per the Ghost of HH's prophecy.

It's far more likely that LF finds Sansa, takes over WF, but then she takes "revenge" for LF sending her to Ramsay, despite the show's bizarre decision to have Sansa explicitly consent and agree to go to WF on the vague promise of "revenge", and then seemingly back out after the marriage happens.

This is absolutely what will happen.

The books point to Sansa being the one to take down Littlefinger, but that required too much set-up and character development for the show (and by too much I mean 'any at all') so they'll dumb it down so that Sansa simply takes revenge on Littlefinger for leaving her with Ramsay. That's why he gave her the speech about not being a bystander & taking revenge against people who have wronged her. She'll meet up with Brienne, learn that Brienne avenged Renly by killing Stannis and realise she must do the same.

That will be her 'victory' that makes the rape 'worth it' to the writers (and the 'wait and see' defenders of this arc). She'll be the one to bring Littlefinger down at Winterfell, thus making the rape a totally necessary thing that needed to happen.

[ununsullied]

They threw her in with the Boltons so people would give a shit about her. Who wants to watch her twiddling her thumbs with some dork in the Vale while everyone else in the story is actually getting into exciting stuff. Also the confrontation between her and Theon was interesting. The stuff at Winterfell was handled very well, I thought. Sansa's best year since season 2.

In that case why didn't Bran and Rickon get captured by Ramsay and get raped all season… then we would see more of them too

The stuff at winterfell may have been 'handled' well, I take it you mean tastefully, but it wasn't her story, it was someone else's, and it has changed her character for ever

[TickTak7]

The problem isn't the rape per se. A storyline about Sansa in Winterfell which includes rebellious Northern Lords, an attempt (successful or not) by Sansa to take down the Boltons from the inside and, yes, a marital rape because Sansa chickens out at the last minute, could still be a compelling storyline.

But, instead, we lack conflict for half a season, we then get a half-assed prison break story and end up with a supposed protagonist probably dead and a decisive victory by the bad guys.

Nailed it. My thoughts exactly.

I don't think anyone expected her wedding night to go swimmingly, but to build her character up in an exciting way in the first few episodes, only to cut her down ruthlessly without any control over her own situation, was just a huge let down.

At the very least, they could have had her more in control of her own escape - she doesn't kill Myranda, and it's actually Theon that grabs her and takes her to escape.

They set up a potentially fascination scenario at Winterfell to really allow Sansa's character to grow, but instead we are left with a Sansa who hasn't grown at all as a character for a few seasons now.

She follows the formula, doesn't she? Big scary monster (Joffrey / Ramsey) is married to Sansa, and she has to rely on others (Littlefinger / Theon) to get her out safely without taking any control of her own.

[rosehustle1]

I mean, yeah, the one thing I keep coming back to about this season is how do you adapt AFFC and ADWD and decide to cut out White Harbor and Frey Pie? They are like the most memorably awesome moment of the books and one of the few "Fuck Yeah" moments available to the writers. When they sent Sansa to Winterfell I had high hopes that they were simply transposing Sansa's Eyrie story to Winterfell-- i.e. she would be learning politics and gauging Northern Lord's loyalty and inclinations instead of doing it in the Eyrie. I was horrified to discover in Episode 6 that no, they weren't transposing Sansa's story, they were transposing Jeyne Poole's story and cutting out Sansa's entirely.

The Ramsay stuff has become too much. It's torture porn basically. In the books he's awful as well, but people forget that we don't see that up close until Reek's POV in ADWD. So while the Jeyne Poole/Winterfell stuff with Ramsay was highly disturbing, it also served some sort of purpose in establishing just what kind of monster Ramsay was...and even then it was over the top in the books.

But the show decided to SHOW almost an entire season of Ramsay's awfulness with him turning Theon into Reek. We already know that Ramsay is a totally awful monster and have seen it up close for a while now...What point is served by further demonstrating this in WF?

The Tommen stuff weirds me out so much because presumably they aged him up solely for that bedding scene? Other than that he is basically playing the same ineffectual ruler role that he has in the books, just a little older. It's just so odd to me because I feel like they took what could have been a really fun and lighthearted aspect of the show (cute little Tommen and Ser Pounce and all that) and turned it much darker for no apparent reason.

I think they would have made Theon's reveal as Reek more memorable if they cut out all those torture scenes. I think that D and D don't recognize that less can be more when done right.

[Grail King]

Nailed it. My thoughts exactly.

I don't think anyone expected her wedding night to go swimmingly, but to build her character up in an exciting way in the first few episodes, only to cut her down ruthlessly without any control over her own situation, was just a huge let down.

At the very least, they could have had her more in control of her own escape - she doesn't kill Myranda, and it's actually Theon that grabs her and takes her to escape.

They set up a potentially fascination scenario at Winterfell to really allow Sansa's character to grow, but instead we are left with a Sansa who hasn't grown at all as a character for a few seasons now.

She follows the formula, doesn't she? Big scary monster (Joffrey / Ramsey) is married to Sansa, and she has to rely on others (Littlefinger / Theon) to get her out safely without taking any control of her own.

I'm so tired of hearing this BS, if you haven’t seen her growth your blind, get over the rape people, I hated it as much as anyone; but to say she hasn't grown your all wrong, she initiated her escape, got Theon to open up, took a chance with the old woman, found a weapon or tool and found a good use for it, she just got outplayed by a 30-40ish aged master manipulator, and oh my gosh Theon initiated taking her hand jeez-wiz she showed a little fear a very human trait, if she ran back to her room you all be bitchin she should have jumped or kill herself .

Instead Sansa is alive to live longer and continue her journey.